[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Squirrellord]

Exactly, it was never actually clear that they were separate entities entirely until 5 here. In 2 we could assume that Beatrice is merely in the game herself. It's never said that the one on the board is acting independently of the one in the Metaworld, and it actually seems more like the one in the Metaworld *is* the one on the board for the most part. In 3, we could have said it was a trick by Beatrice to feign losing power. It was never said that what happens to the Beatrice on the board is only happening to the on the board one. It was only in 4 that we started to be told that they were different, and then 5 just confirmed that completely.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kamar

"Lol that was a metaphor or allegory, X never really happened" just ruins a work of fiction, IMO.

Well, that's already been done in Umineko. Remember the battle between Beato and Virgilia? Not only that, but EP4 made it look as if magic was nothing but people's imagination/delusions.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I wasn't precisely asking about that, but about what exactly the Meta-world is. chronotrig said EP5 shed some new information about what that place is.

Originally Posted by Used Can

I mean, is it some supernatural world we're just supposed to accept, or is it some sort of allegory?

Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:

As some people have mentioned, it looks like this game comes in a three-tiered system:

1. Real world
We have never seen the real world. It may not even exist during Oct 4-5. Presumably, the real world will have a fixed, self-consistent timeline and will be decided upon at the end of the game. There may or may not be multiple real worlds.

2. Game Board
This is our view of the real world. Everything we see in the game is viewed through the eyes of the "narrator"...but not an omniscient narrator. This narrator has a viewpoint limited by the rules of the game and, presumably, by the Game Master herself. Simply put, everything the narrator shows us relies on hearsay.

The game board always shows one of two things:

a. Truth: These are things that are true in the real world and shown in the game. In other words, hearsay that happens to be correct. Hopefully there are quite a lot of these...otherwise reasoning would be difficult.

b. Falsehoods: The narrator is not perfect and can only show us things based on hearsay. "Hearsay" can be anything that one person (any person in the real world) believes to be true or possible. The message bottle letters at the end of the game were seen by many people, so if what they said was a lie, it could still be shown in the Meta world under this heading.
Also, it seems that the Game Master is capable of tweaking these falsehoods beyond anything that was observed in the real world. This is probably how we get people on the game board talking to the Meta world.
Finally, it seems that all "falsehoods" can be canceled out if the red text proves that they are impossible. This also means that a "falsehood" cannot ever be the sole truth, because a self-consistent truth must be possible at all times. However, it is possible for falsehoods to be treated as truth if the real truth is not discovered at the end of the game.

In other words, the game board is the 飾られた虚実, the "mixture of truth and falsehoods displayed before you" (from the first OP lyrics).

3. Meta World
This is where the actually battle over what is truth and what is falsehood takes place. However, many scenes that appear to take place in the Meta world might actually be "falsehoods" from the game board, so it's very hard to tell the two levels apart.

Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must practically be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.

[Kamar]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Well, that's already been done in Umineko. Remember the battle between Beato and Virgilia? Not only that, but EP4 made it look as if magic was nothing but people's imagination/delusions.

I know that, but it is slightly different from what I'm talking about. Doing this to the meta world would basically be saying "All this character development, conflict, etc, never happened, since it was just a dramatization of someone's thought process."

It isn't like the Magic Vs Mystery conflict, where even if it is just a metaphor, we can still take something from it. I just don't see what we could take from "This is all a dramatization of character X deciding magic does/doesn't exist".

I might be explaining myself poorly, sorry. ;(

[Used Can]

No, I do get what you meant. I think the same.
The Meta-world seems to have its own plot aside from the mystery one. It'd be quite sad if it was nothing but an allegory.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:

As some people have mentioned, it looks like this game comes in a three-tiered system:

1. Real world
We have never seen the real world. It may not even exist during Oct 4-5. Presumably, the real world will have a fixed, self-consistent timeline and will be decided upon at the end of the game. There may or may not be multiple real worlds.

2. Game Board
This is our view of the real world. Everything we see in the game is viewed through the eyes of the "narrator"...but not an omniscient narrator. This narrator has a viewpoint limited by the rules of the game and, presumably, by the Game Master herself. Simply put, everything the narrator shows us relies on hearsay.

The game board always shows one of two things:

a. Truth: These are things that are true in the real world and shown in the game. In other words, hearsay that happens to be correct. Hopefully there are quite a lot of these...otherwise reasoning would be difficult.

b. Falsehoods: The narrator is not perfect and can only show us things based on hearsay. "Hearsay" can be anything that one person (any person in the real world) believes to be true or possible. The message bottle letters at the end of the game were seen by many people, so if what they said was a lie, it could still be shown in the Meta world under this heading.
Also, it seems that the Game Master is capable of tweaking these falsehoods beyond anything that was observed in the real world. This is probably how we get people on the game board talking to the Meta world.
Finally, it seems that all "falsehoods" can be canceled out if the red text proves that they are impossible. This also means that a "falsehood" cannot ever be the sole truth, because a self-consistent truth must be possible at all times. However, it is possible for falsehoods to be treated as truth if the real truth is not discovered at the end of the game.

In other words, the game board is the 飾られた虚実, the "mixture of truth and falsehoods displayed before you" (from the first OP lyrics).

3. Meta World
This is where the actually battle over what is truth and what is falsehood takes place. However, many scenes that appear to take place in the Meta world might actually be "falsehoods" from the game board, so it's very hard to tell the two levels apart.

Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

[marebito]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:

As some people have mentioned, it looks like this game comes in a three-tiered system:

1. Real world
We have never seen the real world. It may not even exist during Oct 4-5. Presumably, the real world will have a fixed, self-consistent timeline and will be decided upon at the end of the game. There may or may not be multiple real worlds.

2. Game Board
This is our view of the real world. Everything we see in the game is viewed through the eyes of the "narrator"...but not an omniscient narrator. This narrator has a viewpoint limited by the rules of the game and, presumably, by the Game Master herself. Simply put, everything the narrator shows us relies on hearsay.

The game board always shows one of two things:

a. Truth: These are things that are true in the real world and shown in the game. In other words, hearsay that happens to be correct. Hopefully there are quite a lot of these...otherwise reasoning would be difficult.

b. Falsehoods: The narrator is not perfect and can only show us things based on hearsay. "Hearsay" can be anything that one person (any person in the real world) believes to be true or possible. The message bottle letters at the end of the game were seen by many people, so if what they said was a lie, it could still be shown in the Meta world under this heading.
Also, it seems that the Game Master is capable of tweaking these falsehoods beyond anything that was observed in the real world. This is probably how we get people on the game board talking to the Meta world.
Finally, it seems that all "falsehoods" can be canceled out if the red text proves that they are impossible. This also means that the "falsehoods" cannot ever be the sole truth, because a self-consistent truth must be possible at all times. However, it is possible for falsehoods to be treated as truth if the real truth is not discovered at the end of the game.

In other words, the game board is the 飾られた虚実, the "mixture of truth and falsehoods displayed before you" (from the first OP lyrics).

3. Meta World
This is where the actually battle over what is truth and what is falsehood takes place. However, many scenes that appear to take place in the Meta world might actually be "falsehoods" from the game board, so it's very hard to tell the two levels apart.

Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth", or at least many things that must be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.

Spoiler for meta again:

Furthermore we now know about the golden truth that only the creator of the game and/or someone who knows the absolute truth behind everything (meaning someone with the same knowledge as the creator) can use. Which would support your theory about the meta-world being a mixture of everybody's theories, reasonings, accusations, falsehoods and so on. I would also say we could call the meta-world a huge discourse. And I don't necessarily mean a rational one, but a discourse level where an infinite number of truths can exist as long as they are not denied by absolute evidence.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:

As some people have mentioned, it looks like this game comes in a three-tiered system:

1. Real world
We have never seen the real world. It may not even exist during Oct 4-5. Presumably, the real world will have a fixed, self-consistent timeline and will be decided upon at the end of the game. There may or may not be multiple real worlds.

2. Game Board
This is our view of the real world. Everything we see in the game is viewed through the eyes of the "narrator"...but not an omniscient narrator. This narrator has a viewpoint limited by the rules of the game and, presumably, by the Game Master herself. Simply put, everything the narrator shows us relies on hearsay.

The game board always shows one of two things:

a. Truth: These are things that are true in the real world and shown in the game. In other words, hearsay that happens to be correct. Hopefully there are quite a lot of these...otherwise reasoning would be difficult.

b. Falsehoods: The narrator is not perfect and can only show us things based on hearsay. "Hearsay" can be anything that one person (any person in the real world) believes to be true or possible. The message bottle letters at the end of the game were seen by many people, so if what they said was a lie, it could still be shown in the Meta world under this heading.
Also, it seems that the Game Master is capable of tweaking these falsehoods beyond anything that was observed in the real world. This is probably how we get people on the game board talking to the Meta world.
Finally, it seems that all "falsehoods" can be canceled out if the red text proves that they are impossible. This also means that a "falsehood" cannot ever be the sole truth, because a self-consistent truth must be possible at all times. However, it is possible for falsehoods to be treated as truth if the real truth is not discovered at the end of the game.

In other words, the game board is the 飾られた虚実, the "mixture of truth and falsehoods displayed before you" (from the first OP lyrics).

3. Meta World
This is where the actually battle over what is truth and what is falsehood takes place. However, many scenes that appear to take place in the Meta world might actually be "falsehoods" from the game board, so it's very hard to tell the two levels apart.

That is a very nice theory supported by a lot of facts.

My theory is that the real world is the first game. Games 2 through 4 are gameboards where Beatrice is training Battler's mind and is trying to show Battler the truth (probably related to what is sin is). When she realizes that he has no recollection of the sin the purpose of the games is lost.

Game 5 appears to have a non-magic world story line, a magic world story line, and a meta world story line. In the meta world Bernkastel and Lambdadelta take over playing on the new gamebaord without Beatrice. Will Battler still be able to find the truth without Beatrice's help?
/theory

[Archer]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:

As some people have mentioned, it looks like this game comes in a three-tiered system:

1. Real world
We have never seen the real world. It may not even exist during Oct 4-5. Presumably, the real world will have a fixed, self-consistent timeline and will be decided upon at the end of the game. There may or may not be multiple real worlds.

2. Game Board
This is our view of the real world. Everything we see in the game is viewed through the eyes of the "narrator"...but not an omniscient narrator. This narrator has a viewpoint limited by the rules of the game and, presumably, by the Game Master herself. Simply put, everything the narrator shows us relies on hearsay.

The game board always shows one of two things:

a. Truth: These are things that are true in the real world and shown in the game. In other words, hearsay that happens to be correct. Hopefully there are quite a lot of these...otherwise reasoning would be difficult.

b. Falsehoods: The narrator is not perfect and can only show us things based on hearsay. "Hearsay" can be anything that one person (any person in the real world) believes to be true or possible. The message bottle letters at the end of the game were seen by many people, so if what they said was a lie, it could still be shown in the Meta world under this heading.
Also, it seems that the Game Master is capable of tweaking these falsehoods beyond anything that was observed in the real world. This is probably how we get people on the game board talking to the Meta world.
Finally, it seems that all "falsehoods" can be canceled out if the red text proves that they are impossible. This also means that a "falsehood" cannot ever be the sole truth, because a self-consistent truth must be possible at all times. However, it is possible for falsehoods to be treated as truth if the real truth is not discovered at the end of the game.

In other words, the game board is the 飾られた虚実, the "mixture of truth and falsehoods displayed before you" (from the first OP lyrics).

3. Meta World
This is where the actually battle over what is truth and what is falsehood takes place. However, many scenes that appear to take place in the Meta world might actually be "falsehoods" from the game board, so it's very hard to tell the two levels apart.

Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must practically be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.

Yeah, this is the theory that I've been having ever since Episode 4. When I heard about Maria's letters, it occurred to me that nobody really knew what went on in that island. The letters were most likely descriptions of Episode 1 and 2 gameboards, but nobody has been able to confirm that what happened in those letters were really what happened. That line of reasoning led me to come to the theory I wrote here.

[Used Can]

The only problem I see here is that those bottles were found in a 1998 which follows the evnts after EP3. So, if we're going to trust the existence of those bottles, we'd have to assume the existence of that future. However, we've got EP5, in which a bunch of people survive. It wouldn't make much sense if a story in which the residents of the island survive was written.

Not only that, but in EP5, the possibility of ending the whole thing without the murders ever taking place was stated. Meaning that yet another future would be created.

[Goldsmith]

Or everybody could have died, right?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Goldsmith

Or everybody could have died, right?

Spoiler for EP 5:

No. In EP 5 only Jessica, Maria, George, Genji, Rosa, Hideyoshi and Krauss die.

[Goldsmith]

Are you sure? Is that in red?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Goldsmith

Are you sure? Is that in red?

Not the point. At the end of the episode when you go to tips you can only execute those 7 mentioned. Everybody else can't be executed, which implies they went off the island alive.

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Goldsmith

Are you sure? Is that in red?

Nope. And if I recall that correctly the credits only mentioned that the other characters survived while the game was still in progress. No statements are made concerning anything after 10/05.

Originally Posted by Marion

At the end of the episode when you go to tips you can only execute those 7 mentioned. Everybody else can't be executed, which implies they went off the island alive.

I don't know whether this fact really implies that they survived the whole thing... To me it seemed like the game was finished and summed up earlier than the previous games. We do see the clock that points at 12, though...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by marebito

I don't know whether this fact really implies that they survived the whole thing... To me it seemed like the game was finished and summed up earlier than the previous games. We do see the clock that points at 12, though...

In EP 3 Eva couldn't be executed in TIPs and we even see her off the island. If we didn't have that ??? we wouldn't know if she survived or not by that logic.

Personally I believe that, excluding the 7 that did die, the others got off the island well and good, since no murders were committed after Hideyoshi was killed.

[MeoTwister5]

It's 10am here and it's back to Umineko lol.

Spoiler for E5 Summaries much?:

The scene starts with the MetaWorld, Piece Beato's own MetaWorld(?), Investigations in between and a short battle between Lambda and Bern.

MetaWorld(?)
- Beato is shocked at this imitator. Ronove says the man of 19 years ago might be Lambda's piece.
- Gaap mangles something in English. I think she means that with Kinzo gone there is exactly 18 people on the island at the start with Erika joining them.
- She says that there should be no room for this man of 19 years ago.
- Ronove suggests this person could be a preexisting person and is a cheat?
- Beato says that the red text forbids this extra person?
- They discuss something undecipherable about Bern's and Lambda's board command and somesuch. Sorry again it's freaking hard.
- Beato mentiosn the problem of Kinzo's life farce and the magical barrier around it.
- Some text I can't understand.
- Ronove eventually says it is convenient Erika managed to gather them into the drawing room.
- Beato says Natsuhi is losing and they need to act now? She tells Gaap to do something. She disappears into one of her holes.
- Beato says something and then considers Natsuhi the last master she will serve.
MetaWorld
- Lambda says Krauss' bed and room are empty. She says all the murders are of the same manner with vast bloodstains.
- Bern says there is no corpse so she assumes he isn't dead.
- Scene end

- Eva barges into Krauss' room. They find blood but not of the same manner as the others (?). I guess they imagine he's still alive.
- Natsuhi seems to doubt Krauss' status upon seeing this. Hideyoshi seems conviced 6 people have been sacrificed.
- Kyrie asks why the door is unlocked and if this is natural. Gohda and Kanon say the doors are unlocked as Natsuhi has ordered (?). Not too sure.
- Battler asks about the keys that can open it. Shannon says there is a master key for the servants.
- Erika exclaims that since Genji is dead, his key would be missing. The one who killed him would have a master key with access to the entire house.
- She says in other words locked rooms mean nothing since he can open any door.
- Someone comments on how Erika seems out of this world (?)
- Natsuhi asks if Jessica died similarly. The adults say yes, like to George. She screams her way out and adults try to stop her.
- She wants to see what happened to Jessica. Minor recap of the events through Natsuhi's mind?
- Erika comments on why she still needs to see Jessica. Battler asks if Erika even has a heart. Erika wonders what a heart is (?).
- He wonders about Erika's actions (?)
- MetaWorld Side comment. Lambda is intesrested in the new spin Erika is bringing to the game.
- Natsuhi arrives at the guesthouse and notices the magic circle and the blood. She's looking for Jessica's body. They can't find any of the bodies.
- This door was locked properly says Erika. The bodies are gone.

MetaWorld
- Bern says this is an interesting imitation. Lambda says Beato and her servants moved the bodies.
- Bern says everyone else in the drawing room have an alibi so they should not have been able to move the bodies. She asks that their deaths be declared in red.
- Lambda says she'll do it like how it was done in previous games: Human side brings out their blue words and she'll respond in red.
- Bern says in blue that the victims are not really dead and have relocated after pretending to be dead. It is so until Lambda declares them dead in red. Lambda responds with it being too simple?
- Bern suggests in blue that that Krauss was the one who hid their bodies since he has no alibi for his location.
- Bern says in blue that George and the others hid while they used fake bodies and hid these bodies when the rest left. The bodies are not counted as people on the island.
- Lambda says could the rest not recognize the disfigured faces? Bern says without the red misidentification of the faces are possible.
- Lambda says something about the power of the red to cut down the blue. Some more text about the witches power in the darkness (?).
- A narrator (Bern) discusses how these three blue text wedges against a single mystery and how none of them are denied by Lambda. She says something about needing all 3 wedges to pin it down. Something more about using all your gun's bullets to make sure it's dead?
- Lots of giggle and monologues from Bern that are hard to read. She says she's happy now being able to do this with Lambda after a long catnap.

[Kets]

Why were there seven, as opposed to six?

[MeoTwister5]

The murders don't seem to follow the epitaph anymore, more likely due to Lambda's control.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kets

Why were there seven, as opposed to six?

Spoiler for EP 5:

First twilight people and Hideyoshi died. There was no 2nd twilight completed.

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Marion

In EP 3 Eva couldn't be executed in TIPs and we even see her off the island. If we didn't have that ??? we wouldn't know if she survived or not by that logic.

Personally I believe that, excluding the 7 that did die, the others got off the island well and good, since no murders were committed after Hideyoshi was killed.

Didn't the game advance until the last moment of 10/05 in EP3? Then I see a difference there. Sure if we consider the clock alone this was the same in EP5 but I'm not so sure about that since it's such a seemingly significant deviation apart from that.

On the other hand your point is also a logical conclusion. After Natsuhi's accusation the characters stay as a group and keep an eye on Natsuhi until 10/06 and from then on the possibility of Natsuhi as culprit becomes 'the truth' for that kakera.