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gtr06 · 2009-09-25, 16:05

was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.

Marion · 2009-09-25, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.

I think someone would notice if Beatrice took Rosa's place. Beatrice is taller than her and her facial features are more mature, compared to Rosa's. Plus you can easily tell Beato is older than Rosa in that time period. It doesn't seem likely to me.

Kitsu · 2009-09-25, 16:10

And come on! I mean the ushiromiya's aren't the happy family but they would notice if someone switched roles with Rosa, not only by looking but by her behaviour

luckyssol · 2009-09-25, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.

If you've only read up to episode 4 then this is a possibility since there is no red text to deny it. However, wouldn't it be strange that no one would recognize Rosa's sudden change in appearance?

Keep reading and the answer will probably be revealed.

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-25, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.

That is quite difficult to believe, unless they were twin

from what Rosa said, you can understand that her mother was still alive back then. How could Beatrice trick Rosa's own mother? Plus Beatrice was completely clueless about the world, this is impossible.

However what the anime made me think is that Rosa somehow developed a fake "beatrice" personality after the trauma of seeing the corpse of the real Beatrice dead because of her. That's what I would believe if I were an anime viewers without any VN knowledge.

Anyway, as usual the anime messes up my theories. I thought Beatrice's death was no accident and that someone pushed her. In the novel it is possible, but the anime completely changed the dynamic of the incident, so it isn't possible anymore unless Rosa is deaf, or the killer is a ninja.

rogerpepitone · 2009-09-25, 20:46

Even in the VN, the idea of Rosa's Beatrice being murdered doesn't make sense. Nobody could have known that Rosa would go to Kuwadorian, or where they would be. It occurred in a part of Rokkenjima far from the mansion, so nobody would be there otherwise.

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-25, 21:04

It is possible. Rosa was missing, we know there's 2km from the mansion and the kuwadorian and there isn't a straight path. It must have taken several hours, enough for someone to be alarmed. If someone went in the forest in search of Rosa, that person could have seen Beatrice and decided to take advantage of that situation (assuming she had a reason to hate her).

Marion · 2009-09-25, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

For Rosa and Maria's death in EP3, I'd have to agree that a different person committed their murders. I can imagine Eva killing Maria first out of frustration (fight about gold? did Eva even find the gold? ), and Rosa is shocked enough to pull the gun at Eva, but Eva instinctively uses her wide array of martial arts skills to kill her. I don't think Eva would have planned to kill them beforehand. (Does Eva have an alibi during the time Rosa and Maria were out of the guesthouse? )

For Maria's rose outburst in EP3, I have no clue why she suddenly wanted to see it. This situation seems to be only unique to EP3. There seems to be a heavy fuss about Maria's rose in Umineko.

Eva technically has no alibi. Her alibi is Hideyoshi's word, but if Battler's cigarette deduction was true then that alibi is gone.

The rose was fixed by Beatrice and she probably wanted to take care of it so that it wouldn't be broken again, since Beatrice probably explained to her how endless magic does not usually last all the time maybe.

KanonTheFurniture · 2009-09-26, 18:34

Haven't read anything in this thread yet since I'm not done EP4...but the scene I'm at now has left me confused about something I'm hoping someone can clear up.

(Also, oh my God, I absolutely hate Rosa now...she's the most detestable human being ever, and I think it's because she's so realistic it's hard to imagine her as just a character in a story...)

Anyways.

Spoiler for my question:

The scene I'm on now is right after Rosa rips up Sakutaro...Ange and Amakusa are on the way to Rokkenjima on the boat. Ange is talking to Mammon, and realizing what a horrible thing it was that she said to hurt Maria so long ago.

...she's going as far as to blame the Rokkenjima Incident on that fact that she hurt Maria...and the following line is what's really thrown me for a loop:

"I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later."

.......................

That incident happened because Ange was overwhelmed by the horrible girls at Saint Lucia's academy. The school, or prison, she was sent to after the Rokkenjima Incident under Eva's care.

...the incident that had her deny Maria, Sakutaro, and the Stakes happened after Maria was already dead, after everything on October 4th and 5th of 1986 had already happened. Though using Ange's teenage character portrait in the flashbacks within flashbacks within flashbacks within yet more flashbacks makes confusing things even more confusing as it is, I'd guess she could be anywhere between 6 and 18 (I assume Eva sent her there soon after she was put into her care), but it feels like high school, or at the very least, junior high. She does seem to say in the 'present' (these flashbacks are really confusing, I have no idea what's happening when anymore, seriously) that it had been a long time ago since she used magic, though, and I doubt elementary school girls, even rich ones, would be so cruel...so I'd guess she was at least 14 or 15 at this time. But that's irrelevant anyways...regardless of how old Ange was when she denied Maria, it was at Saint Lucia's, and she was sent there after Eva got custody of her, which was after the Rokkenjima Incident.

So why is she implying that the event where she hurt Maria could have influenced an incident that had already happened several years earlier, when Maria was already dead? The Maria she spoke to was no longer alive in the human world. It didn't make her any less 'real' depending on your perspective but it most certainly could not have influenced something that had already happened!! But now Ange is saying that she thinks maybe that time she hurt Maria could have influenced the incident that took place 'several years later'...? Am I missing something here, or have I discovered the first real Umineko plothole?

Someone, please clear this up for me...I could be totally wrong in interpreting this anyways; as I said, these endless flashbacks are dizzying, especially when I'm not reading continuously and am breaking in between every so many chapters, then returning later unsure of where I am in the timeframe...but I'm positive that this can't be right, since Ange denying the Stakes/Sakutaro/Maria most certainly happened after the Rokkenjima Incident...help, please ;_;

Workworkwork · 2009-09-26, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture

Haven't read anything in this thread yet since I'm not done EP4...but the scene I'm at now has left me confused about something I'm hoping someone can clear up.

(Also, oh my God, I absolutely hate Rosa now...she's the most detestable human being ever, and I think it's because she's so realistic it's hard to imagine her as just a character in a story...)

Anyways.

Spoiler for my question:

The scene I'm on now is right after Rosa rips up Sakutaro...Ange and Amakusa are on the way to Rokkenjima on the boat. Ange is talking to Mammon, and realizing what a horrible thing it was that she said to hurt Maria so long ago.

...she's going as far as to blame the Rokkenjima Incident on that fact that she hurt Maria...and the following line is what's really thrown me for a loop:

"I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later."

.......................

That incident happened because Ange was overwhelmed by the horrible girls at Saint Lucia's academy. The school, or prison, she was sent to after the Rokkenjima Incident under Eva's care.

...the incident that had her deny Maria, Sakutaro, and the Stakes happened after Maria was already dead, after everything on October 4th and 5th of 1986 had already happened. Though using Ange's teenage character portrait in the flashbacks within flashbacks within flashbacks within yet more flashbacks makes confusing things even more confusing as it is, I'd guess she could be anywhere between 6 and 18 (I assume Eva sent her there soon after she was put into her care), but it feels like high school, or at the very least, junior high. She does seem to say in the 'present' (these flashbacks are really confusing, I have no idea what's happening when anymore, seriously) that it had been a long time ago since she used magic, though, and I doubt elementary school girls, even rich ones, would be so cruel...so I'd guess she was at least 14 or 15 at this time. But that's irrelevant anyways...regardless of how old Ange was when she denied Maria, it was at Saint Lucia's, and she was sent there after Eva got custody of her, which was after the Rokkenjima Incident.

So why is she implying that the event where she hurt Maria could have influenced an incident that had already happened several years earlier, when Maria was already dead? The Maria she spoke to was no longer alive in the human world. It didn't make her any less 'real' depending on your perspective but it most certainly could not have influenced something that had already happened!! But now Ange is saying that she thinks maybe that time she hurt Maria could have influenced the incident that took place 'several years later'...? Am I missing something here, or have I discovered the first real Umineko plothole?

Someone, please clear this up for me...I could be totally wrong in interpreting this anyways; as I said, these endless flashbacks are dizzying, especially when I'm not reading continuously and am breaking in between every so many chapters, then returning later unsure of where I am in the timeframe...but I'm positive that this can't be right, since Ange denying the Stakes/Sakutaro/Maria most certainly happened after the Rokkenjima Incident...help, please ;_;

Spoiler:

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-27, 07:55

Quote:

...the incident that had her deny Maria, Sakutaro, and the Stakes happened after Maria was already dead, after everything on October 4th and 5th of 1986 had already happened.

Uhm from what I understand. Ange told Maria that witches don't exist when she was a child on Rokkenjima. I think there was a flashback when Ange remembers telling that to Maria, I can't find it right now, but I remember her saying that she's been told by her father and mother that witches do not exist in reality.

Chaho-Chi · 2009-09-27, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uhm from what I understand. Ange told Maria that witches don't exist when she was a child on Rokkenjima. I think there was a flashback when Ange remembers telling that to Maria, I can't find it right now, but I remember her saying that she's been told by her father and mother that witches do not exist in reality.

Wait what? I though this happened before the Rokkenjima Muders.
Didn't they communicate though Maria's Diary at the time Rosa was "Working" and home alone?

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-27, 08:01

And what did I say? °° it happened before the Rokkenima murders.

however I don't understand what you mean by "communicating through Maria's diary",

Chaho-Chi · 2009-09-27, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And what did I say? °° it happened before the Rokkenima murders.

Ohhh ok then

Quote:

however I don't understand what you mean by "communicating through Maria's diary",

I meant as Ange using Maria's diary as a vessel to communicate to Maria.

Chadauw · 2009-09-27, 10:01

When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.

rogerpepitone · 2009-09-27, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is possible. Rosa was missing, we know there's 2km from the mansion and the kuwadorian and there isn't a straight path. It must have taken several hours, enough for someone to be alarmed. If someone went in the forest in search of Rosa, that person could have seen Beatrice and decided to take advantage of that situation (assuming she had a reason to hate her).

If somebody were to go into the forest in search of Rosa, wouldn't they be likely to:
- Get everyone (or at least all the Fukuin servants) to form a cordon during the search
- Call out to Rosa repeatedly while searching (in case she'd been injured and was unable to move)
?

It's a big island. It's pretty tough for anybody to find Rosa in the time span.

Chaho-Chi · 2009-09-27, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadauw

When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.

I don't remember that. ._.
I think chunks of my memory are slowly oozing out

But the thing that made me think that the diary was used as a vessel is after Ange rejected magic at the school, you see Maria in her room (I think she was in her room?) crying. It was hard for me to imagine this right after she came back from Rokkenjima

desirebluesky · 2009-09-27, 11:31

forget the possibility, but what's the point of explaining her death as a murder? does it change anything?

Spoiler for EP5:

as for the rosa search, the mansion and the garden itself are quite big, they probably wouldn't think she was missing unless she didn't appear on the dinner or something like that. even if anyone was looking for her, the first thing to do was to search around the mansion, not the forrest.
especially that everyone knew that rosa is afraid of the witch, nobody would think she could just run into the forrest and get lost.

Quote:

...she's going as far as to blame the Rokkenjima Incident on that fact that she hurt Maria...and the following line is what's really thrown me for a loop:
"I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later."

this line made me think about another thing. it wouldn't be weird if Ange inherited Kyrie's intuition XD, so i thought she may be actually right. pretty much the first thought i had after the sin scene: "what if it is between Battler and Maria?" now i kinda think like that:
battler's_sin + hurting_maria = murder_incident
where the details go like that:
1.sin doen't happen = rokkenjima incident doesn't happen
2.sin happens = plot branches like that:
2a. sin happens + ange doesn't hurt maria = rokkenjima incident doesn't happen
2b. sin happens + ange hurts maria = rokkenjima incident happens

than again i'm just like ange - no basis for it, except for her line and general intuition. just a thought i had.

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-27, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadauw

When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.

That's exactly how I remember it. In other words when Ange said that she hurt Maria by denying magic, she's not talking about that event at school where she kills the stakes, she's talking about an event that happened on Rokkenjima a lot earlier.

KanonTheFurniture · 2009-09-27, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadauw

When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

I know the two were once friendly cousins when they met in real life during the conferences. However, I don't remember this being mentioned at all. As I understood it, the game never mentioned anything about the real Ange telling the real Maria when they were little girls on Rokkenjima that she denied magic. The way it seemed was as though the first time Ange denied magic was that time in the classroom, where she was denying it to the witch Maria, the Maria who had already died in the real world during the incident. It's even said pretty clearly when she first talks to Maria through the diary (by which I mean the first time we see it in the game, not the first chronological time she did it) that the Maria she's speaking to is dead in the real world. So that means this Maria she speaks to is the Maria who already died, IE, post Rokkenjima Incident.

And that scene where she denied them in the classroom was a flashback scene, so now in the present of 1998, as Ange is making her journey to Rokkenjima having made up with the Stakes and Sakutaro, she's remembering having hurt them like that in the past. But I don't remember anything being said about the time she denied magic and witches being when Ange and Maria were little girls...are you sure about this? I wrote my previous post after a few hours marathoning until that scene and I absolutely do not remember anything being said about it happening like that. I'm not saying you guys are wrong - like I said, the constant flashbacks really confused me - but I don't remember this being said anywhere. Can someone point it out clearly?

2009-09-25, 16:10	Link #3503
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	And come on! I mean the ushiromiya's aren't the happy family but they would notice if someone switched roles with Rosa, not only by looking but by her behaviour __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-09-25, 21:04	Link #3507
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	It is possible. Rosa was missing, we know there's 2km from the mansion and the kuwadorian and there isn't a straight path. It must have taken several hours, enough for someone to be alarmed. If someone went in the forest in search of Rosa, that person could have seen Beatrice and decided to take advantage of that situation (assuming she had a reason to hate her). __________________

2009-09-27, 08:01	Link #3513
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	And what did I say? °° it happened before the Rokkenima murders. however I don't understand what you mean by "communicating through Maria's diary", __________________

2009-09-25, 16:05	Link #3501
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.

2009-09-25, 20:46	Link #3506
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Even in the VN, the idea of Rosa's Beatrice being murdered doesn't make sense. Nobody could have known that Rosa would go to Kuwadorian, or where they would be. It occurred in a part of Rokkenjima far from the mansion, so nobody would be there otherwise.

2009-09-26, 18:34	Link #3509
KanonTheFurniture Witch's Golden Breaker Join Date: Sep 2009	Haven't read anything in this thread yet since I'm not done EP4...but the scene I'm at now has left me confused about something I'm hoping someone can clear up. (Also, oh my God, I absolutely hate Rosa now...she's the most detestable human being ever, and I think it's because she's so realistic it's hard to imagine her as just a character in a story...) Anyways. Spoiler for my question: The scene I'm on now is right after Rosa rips up Sakutaro...Ange and Amakusa are on the way to Rokkenjima on the boat. Ange is talking to Mammon, and realizing what a horrible thing it was that she said to hurt Maria so long ago. ...she's going as far as to blame the Rokkenjima Incident on that fact that she hurt Maria...and the following line is what's really thrown me for a loop: "I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later." ....................... That incident happened because Ange was overwhelmed by the horrible girls at Saint Lucia's academy. The school, or prison, she was sent to after the Rokkenjima Incident under Eva's care. ...the incident that had her deny Maria, Sakutaro, and the Stakes happened after Maria was already dead, after everything on October 4th and 5th of 1986 had already happened. Though using Ange's teenage character portrait in the flashbacks within flashbacks within flashbacks within yet more flashbacks makes confusing things even more confusing as it is, I'd guess she could be anywhere between 6 and 18 (I assume Eva sent her there soon after she was put into her care), but it feels like high school, or at the very least, junior high. She does seem to say in the 'present' (these flashbacks are really confusing, I have no idea what's happening when anymore, seriously) that it had been a long time ago since she used magic, though, and I doubt elementary school girls, even rich ones, would be so cruel...so I'd guess she was at least 14 or 15 at this time. But that's irrelevant anyways...regardless of how old Ange was when she denied Maria, it was at Saint Lucia's, and she was sent there after Eva got custody of her, which was after the Rokkenjima Incident. So why is she implying that the event where she hurt Maria could have influenced an incident that had already happened several years earlier, when Maria was already dead? The Maria she spoke to was no longer alive in the human world. It didn't make her any less 'real' depending on your perspective but it most certainly could not have influenced something that had already happened!! But now Ange is saying that she thinks maybe that time she hurt Maria could have influenced the incident that took place 'several years later'...? Am I missing something here, or have I discovered the first real Umineko plothole? Someone, please clear this up for me...I could be totally wrong in interpreting this anyways; as I said, these endless flashbacks are dizzying, especially when I'm not reading continuously and am breaking in between every so many chapters, then returning later unsure of where I am in the timeframe...but I'm positive that this can't be right, since Ange denying the Stakes/Sakutaro/Maria most certainly happened after the Rokkenjima Incident...help, please ;_;

2009-09-27, 10:01	Link #3515
Chadauw ... Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: France Age: 33	When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches. But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that. Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened. Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes. But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again. And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends. Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary That's what I understood.