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Old 2013-01-19, 13:47   Link #31681
haguruma
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
There's also the thing about race that is conveniently ignored.

Though I guess this isn't too much of an issue: the Second Beatrice would be part Japanese and part Italian, then Yasu would probably be more Japanese than Italian.
Well, Kinzo mentions, when he first meets Yasu as Beatrice, that she looks just like her mother did in that dress and hairdo, so it is not unlikely that without these elements nobody would actually suspect her to be a direct descendent of an Italian.

There's also the scene in EP2 where Kyrie witnesses Beatrice being lead up the stairs by Genji and she is obviously confused because she is sure to have seen that perosn before. This hints both towards the get-up partly disguising the original features but at the same time not being 1:1 Beatrice from the portrait.
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Old 2013-01-19, 19:52   Link #31682
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, Kinzo mentions, when he first meets Yasu as Beatrice, that she looks just like her mother did in that dress and hairdo, so it is not unlikely that without these elements nobody would actually suspect her to be a direct descendent of an Italian.

There's also the scene in EP2 where Kyrie witnesses Beatrice being lead up the stairs by Genji and she is obviously confused because she is sure to have seen that perosn before. This hints both towards the get-up partly disguising the original features but at the same time not being 1:1 Beatrice from the portrait.
A good make up can help a bit too, not much but still enough to decieve.


Regarding the face issue: was only in EP 1, so it doesn't really work...
and... No more cheepers creepers for you guys :P
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Old 2013-01-19, 21:13   Link #31683
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In defense of a person dressing as Beatrice, if you aren't paying a lot of attention to the person under normal circumstances you might not recognize them when they're in a very conspicuous disguise.

Like if the guy who works down the hall from you comes to work as a clown. If you see a clown walk past your workstation, are you necessarily going to immediately recognize Gary from Accounting, even if you've met Gary before?

Beatrice shows up in ep2 in an audacious outfit with really striking hair. Kyrie could probably be forgiven for not being suspicious as to who she is... but anyone looking for any length of time, probably not so much. Battler of course might recognize more readily, but had no opportunity to do so closely in ep4. So at least that disguise is kind of understandable.
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Old 2013-01-20, 11:26   Link #31684
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
For the entire EP 2 Rosa has an alibi. Will was allowed to counter blues with his VanDine reds so they are probably applicable too, so only one culprit with MINOR accomplices.
Though his idea of what george does is no longer 'minor'.
The entire concept of Umineko seems pretty contradictory to Rule #2, though.
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Old 2013-01-20, 13:12   Link #31685
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The entire concept of Umineko seems pretty contradictory to Rule #2, though.
Also #16. To fully introduce those rules, I suspect they'd have to have been pretty heavily modified as one or two Knox rules were.
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Old 2013-01-20, 13:58   Link #31686
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Also #16. To fully introduce those rules, I suspect they'd have to have been pretty heavily modified as one or two Knox rules were.
I was thinking that only those which were said on the story applied to the Mystery. Because, Well Why would Ryu make Battler ask Dlanor if the mystery supported Knox with Dlanor responding as 'I don't know' when She has used Knox to deny some stuff already...
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Old 2013-01-20, 14:31   Link #31687
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Also the reason as to why Beato simply didn't finish Dlanor off by proclaiming that "This gameboard doesn't work based on the Knox rules" in colored text.
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Old 2013-01-20, 18:40   Link #31688
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Also the reason as to why Beato simply didn't finish Dlanor off by proclaiming that "This gameboard doesn't work based on the Knox rules" in colored text.
We could even go so far and say that it is not strange that End of the Golden Witch adhered to the Knox rules, since it was a game created by somebody else than Beato or Battler (though it is strange then how Ange talks about only a number of her relatives being killed off in the last work by either Hachijou Touya or Itouikukuro Reigonamu). From a meta-perspective though, the game could have been especially constructed to allow the Eiserne Jungfrau to use the Knox rules.
This in turn would make EP6 an even bigger trap, because it meant allowing rules that are not necessarily applicable to the game as a whole from Battler's perspective.
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Old 2013-01-20, 19:30   Link #31689
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That bothered me in the Chiru arcs. I don't think anybody proclaimed that any of the games adhere to the Knox Decalogue. Dlanor just showed up and went 'whaddup' and suddenly pro-mystery everywhere. Unless I'm mistaken, of course. It became a pretty big problem in EP6 as well.

Not to mention the EP7 Tea Party... literally picking and choosing from the Van Dine rules without any indication. I mean, it's one thing to say "A servant didn't do it!" or whatever. But to proclaim that a servant didn't do it because it violates one of these rules strongly suggests that the rules themselves are valid across the entire board. This isn't true. What is even the point of Van Dine's wedges? I understand that Willlard is arguably the character most representative of anti-mystery, but using SOME of the Van Dine rules makes reasoning very difficult.
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Old 2013-01-20, 22:04   Link #31690
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I doubt Van Dines is applicable at all.
Will used it first, on a completely unrelated gameboard.
He used it again in the very specific case of Bern's "who killed Beatrice" game, where she herself admitted that she just placed Beato's box into a larger box.
And he used it again during Kyrie's super-fun-target-practice, and LOST HORRIBLY. I forget the specific line, but I remember having the distinct impression that Will shied away from evening mentioning his rules during EP7, because they would've Beato's gameboard wouldn't be able to withstand them, or something like that.

Regarding Dlanor, we're told, right after Dlanor expresses her own doubt, that she would not have been allowed to enter the game if it were against Beato's wishes. In my opinion, Ryukishi's literary moralizing was trying to say "Yeah, pro-mystery rules have their place. Hell, even I'm using them, probably, but you shouldn't blindly make that assumption." Like, hoo-rah for Bern and Lambda because they were the ones who actually called Dlanor, but it's still Beato's creative graces that allowed such a move.

Plus, just to go a little farther, taking Van Dine's across the board doesn't even add much more information that Knox's, does. It would confirm that at least one person has been killed in each scnenarior, and ... that there's certainly a detective, somewhere (Erika mentioned the off chance that she could still be murdered, despite being the detective piece) ... and proving the theory about Hideyoshi's cigarettes wrong, in EP3.

It's another matter that disappointed me about the Golden Land battle in EP8 - among the squandered opportunities for clarifying, Will was said to be fighting the goats whose pro-mystery theories were basically terrible, but we're told and not shown about it. Too bad.
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Old 2013-01-20, 22:38   Link #31691
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Just remember that BATTLER's viewpoint in EP6 had to be made unreliable because he had learned the truth (Featherine said so). What else could BATTLER's unreliable viewpoint be hiding from us, if not that he's actually Genius Batter
I never thought about this statement from Featherine properly before, but maybe as well as Meta Battler learning the truth (and thus having to write his character as unreliable) what it is telling us is piece Battler learned the truth in this game. Game 5 would be waaaay too early to show us Battler being handed the solution by Yasu and seeing the gold room, and yet it fits well with the story....
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Old 2013-01-22, 09:51   Link #31692
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You know, rereading ep8 it's kind of baffling how nonsensical the entire goat battle sequence is. Things just happen for no reason, people not named Will/Dlanor/Lion/BATTLER are completely incapable of thinking of any semblance of strategy, and then Battler has to fight Erika because........ because he does, and then they (and Beato/Ange) have a context-less logic battle (that we don't even actually get to see for either side), Beatrice seals a room that already has the thing in it Ange wants in the first place, Ange is completely right in all of her arguments about how everyone is being a patronizing dick to her, BATTLER argues that bad things aren't bad if we don't know about them (I'm sure that's exactly how Yukari felt about her cancer, right?), and then Lion makes a point about trusting Ange that seems to fly over everyone's head, including the author's. And then most of that turns out to have been completely pointless. And then later we get cockblocked on yet another fight scene.

Basically what I'm saying is Will and Lion are the only good characters in Chiru, and also that the removal of a board narrative for context damages the emotional investment of the logic battles. It probably doesn't help that they were also more or less cut out entirely and reduced to conclusions (that have no impact because there was no back-and-forth).

One thing I was pointing out last night though: If the goats can only deny things with "mystery" solutions (apparently there are no pro-fantasy people in the future), wouldn't a good strategy just be to make up some new magic character they've never heard of? Hell, just keep doing that, what kinda Endless Witches are Battler and Beatrice anyway?

EDIT: Also BATTLER makes so many suboptimal moves that I almost have to think he's Genius Battlering the whole thing, except that requires that he be able to accurately predict literally everything Bernkastel would do which is a vastly bigger stretch than predicting Erika's actions.
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Last edited by Renall; 2013-01-22 at 10:05.
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Old 2013-01-22, 10:48   Link #31693
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^Add to that, that Tohya and Ikuko together "form" Featherine and it makes sense again... well, almost...
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Old 2013-01-22, 10:53   Link #31694
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^Add to that, that Tohya and Ikuko together "form" Featherine and it makes sense again... well, almost...
It makes sense on the authorial level because Tohya/Ikuko basically are the top-level authority in the form of the author avatar, but it doesn't make sense on the lower level where BATTLER is doing things for what he claims to be a coherent reason yet ends up doing a bunch of shit he has no reason whatsoever to do but does anyway. These actions make sense from Featherine's context, but they don't make a whole lot of sense from BATTLER's.
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Old 2013-01-22, 15:47   Link #31695
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Well in my opinion, the fact that nothing made sense at all in EP8 is why I loved reading it my first time through. Pretty much all of Umineko's magical battles were like this especially EP3 when Beatrice and Virgilia could just use weapons of the Gods at will. It sorta made the magic feel extremely ridiculous and very entertaining to watch it take place all at the same time. EP8 is just a magic battle that goes on and on.

Looking at it though, EP1-4 were anti fantasy so the reason of having ridiculous magic battles was to help get the readers on that track and Chiru is supposed to be Anti Mystery in which the logic battles are extremely ridiculous to get us on the pro fantasy path however EP8 then just feels out of place when you look at it like that. Actually I take that back, EP8 was ridiculous in both fantasy and mystery so I guess what Umineko is saying in the end is nothing :/
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Old 2013-01-22, 15:51   Link #31696
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It makes sense on the authorial level because Tohya/Ikuko basically are the top-level authority in the form of the author avatar, but it doesn't make sense on the lower level where BATTLER is doing things for what he claims to be a coherent reason yet ends up doing a bunch of shit he has no reason whatsoever to do but does anyway. These actions make sense from Featherine's context, but they don't make a whole lot of sense from BATTLER's.
That's why I said "almost".
Isn't there this popular theory that EP8 is a mixture of Yukari's and Tohya's/Ikuko's world and that is the reason that it looks so confusing?
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Old 2013-01-22, 16:36   Link #31697
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Well in my opinion, the fact that nothing made sense at all in EP8 is why I loved reading it my first time through. Pretty much all of Umineko's magical battles were like this especially EP3 when Beatrice and Virgilia could just use weapons of the Gods at will. It sorta made the magic feel extremely ridiculous and very entertaining to watch it take place all at the same time. EP8 is just a magic battle that goes on and on.
The ep3 battle has a point though: It's intentionally more over-the-top than anything has ever been in a manner that leaves absolutely no evidence in order to alert Battler to the fact that if a scene was unobserved, aspects of it are open to doubt. All of the magic battles either contain big hints or represent the arguments needed to get some insight from them.

The battles in ep8 are essentially divorced from context; nobody appears to be learning anything, and the battles with Battler/Erika and Beatrice/Ange especially have no apparent connection to the actual flow of the plot and are effectively meaningless after they end. If nothing else they could've touched on the actual points the episode was addressing in more than one half of a conversation between Ange and Beatrice. Which would've been fine and potentially interesting had Beatrice not been an enormously patronizing jerk, and had their debate actually happened during their battle that we never saw instead of at the tail end of it. And the Battler/Erika thing was 100% filler with no purpose whatsoever.
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Old 2013-01-22, 16:45   Link #31698
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You know, rereading ep8 it's kind of baffling how nonsensical the entire goat battle sequence is. Things just happen for no reason, people not named Will/Dlanor/Lion/BATTLER are completely incapable of thinking of any semblance of strategy, and then Battler has to fight Erika because........ because he does, and then they (and Beato/Ange) have a context-less logic battle (that we don't even actually get to see for either side), Beatrice seals a room that already has the thing in it Ange wants in the first place, Ange is completely right in all of her arguments about how everyone is being a patronizing dick to her, BATTLER argues that bad things aren't bad if we don't know about them
Honestly I find Ep 8 pretty messy.
I think it had the right potential as I've assumed that it wasn't that Battler wanted to deny Ange the truth as he hands her the key that only she can use and... well, he basically let her spot the book when they met but that there was something he wanted her to know first.
And this was fitting even in regards to Prime as it's implied that in Prime Ange has likely already read Eva's diary but there's no red truth in Prime so she will never know if what Eva wrote is the truth and will have to deal with it so... additional info can be useful, expecially considering it's likely that neither Eva nor Battler know the full truth about what had happened.
Also Meta Battler seemed very much a construct of Ange's mind so it made even more sense he couldn't tell her what Ange didn't know.

However all this is developed in the messiest of the ways as what Battler does doesn't seem to try and point out the good sides of his relatives so that Ange could tell herself "Hey, even if they did some bad things they weren't completely evil or they had their own reasons for it!" but to outright lie to her, offering her the opposite version of Bern's tale. If Bern's one turned everyone into monsters, his turn everyone into angels.

(which is why I prefer the manga version in which, for example, is confirmed that Rosa wasn't the best mother but we're given some extra tips about her childhood. Oh yes, everything then turns out nice but in a more believable way than in the novel version where Rosa seems a completely nice person)

It only confuses things for the readers as it makes impossible to figure out the truth (did the Ushiromiya really argue for the inheritance or it was just a speculation created by the message bottles who were written on an 'immaginary' setting? did Rosa really mistreat Maria or she was merely a severe mother who, sometimes was forced by work to neglect Maria? was Kinzo really that severe, bordering on violent and supporter of man supremacy or he was merely misunderstood because he was a weird guy? And so on...) and harder for Ange to believe in what Battler is saying.
The Ushiromiya of the first part of EP 7 aren't jumping at each other's throat but are more... believable than the ones of Ep 8.

While Ange is right in her argument her way to go at it reminds more of a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum. One of the things I didn't like in Ep 8 is that it sort of destroyed the grow Ange had gone through in EP 4 when she realized if she'd tried to be nice to Eva and support her things would have gone better.

In addition she fails a second time into showing she could accept the truth because, as she had rejected the supposed truth of Ep 7 Teaparty by 'self-terminating' herself while Bern let her believe she was about to say it was all true in red, she can't stand to the truth in Ep 8 either and reject it, both verbally and with her actions.

I would have preferred if she'd namaged to prove Battler wrong and withstand the truth, especially because she insisted so much in knowing it despite knowing it was going to be bad.

Also the whole not knowing vs knowing is handled poorly.

One thing is fully believing that the Rokkenjima mess was an incident and never doubting it and with you the rest of the world and the whole truth having no releavence in your life. You're probably not happy about it happening but not knowing it was... let's assume... a massacre orchestrated by your mom and that ended bad for her as well, isn't going to have any consequence in your life.

Another thing is you're living a life plagued by accusations and doubts. People around Ange were, back then, likely continuously reminding her that there was someone to blame for the situation and pointing fingers against her parents. Ange herself wanted someone to blame even if her target was Eva.

In that case not knowing offers you no relief.

If the whole point was 'PrimeAnge will never know the truth because there's no red and, even if she were told the truh the only thing that would matter is if she believes it or not'... well, that too is handled poorly because we're dealing with MetaAnge here and she can find out the truth. Why should MetaAnge care if there's no red truth in Prime when she can have access to it in the Meta?

In a way if it's true that PieceYasu was moved by a Meta motive here it seems that MetaBattler is moved by a Prime motive.

And if that's the truth I'm going to find it as disappointing as PieceYasu being moved by a Meta motive.

As for the fight with the goats... I didn't like it much. First there's the 'everyone escapes and only a few can fight the goat', then there's the 'everyone fight amazingly well against the goats and Erika' but, apart for the supposed coolness of the fighting scenes that as far as I'm involved goes vasted because they aren't being shown visually (as far as I'm involved that sort of fighting scenes need to be seen to be apprecciated by me, just having to read them is boring) the whole fight doesn't really add much to the plot.
We only have a confirmation and an extra info (Kanon showed up at Jessica's school and George had Shannon's letters) then there's some rambling about feelings that doesn't really tell us much (Rosa loved Maria? That's cool but is this an insurance she wasn't an abusive mother? There's plenty of real life crimes committed by person X who loved person Y and yet killed him/her just the same) and... honestly I can't remember anything else.

Van Dines are left in white, so although they work on the goats we don't know if they work on the gameboard... which is pretty pointless any way you look at it.

If the goats are challenging Will on the gameboard to be pushed back the Van Dines should work on the gameboard. If the goats are challenging Will on Prime... who cares about Van Dine?

And so on.

So no, I'm not very fond of Ep 8 as it could have been done way better. As of now I've big hopes for the manga that so far had been better in many, many ways (they even had Battler and Shannon talk when the whole issue is completely ignored in the novel and MetaBattler seems to see Shannon as just a servant) though I'm not sure it'll manage to keep this standards up till the end.
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:09   Link #31699
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From a literary standpoint, yeah, the logic battles don't fit very well. I thought they were cool though because it was a throwback to EP2, in a way. At the same time, there really wasn't MUCH to them, so that's why we don't get to see the "middle" of the arguments. He could have fleshed them out and made them more relevant somehow, I agree.

Besides, it gives Ryukishi a reason to use More Fear and lixaxil
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Old 2013-01-22, 17:47   Link #31700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also Meta Battler seemed very much a construct of Ange's mind so it made even more sense he couldn't tell her what Ange didn't know.
I kind of adopted the stance that, while Meta-Battler is a reflection of how Ange perceives the Battler behind the stories to be like, the EP8 gamemaster Battler is also a reflection of what stance the Battler in Touya took regarding his message towards Ange.

Battler's message might be with the intention to "give Ange a wonderful outlook on a horrible reality", but he also ran into the same trap as Yasu did. He assumed that there could only be one way for this to turn out, he wanted for Ange to reach his solution in a way that she would think she reached it on her own. Every time she strayed from that path Battler appeared to be pretty frustrated. He does not seem to understand why she wouldn't accept his wonderful fantasy.
I think that is why Battler met with the child Ange in the chapel, because he passed that key to a child, not to an adult with different views on the world.

Quote:
As of now I've big hopes for the manga that so far had been better in many, many ways (they even had Battler and Shannon talk when the whole issue is completely ignored in the novel and MetaBattler seems to see Shannon as just a servant) though I'm not sure it'll manage to keep this standards up till the end.
I really hope they will be able to keep the current level up, because I agree that the manga version of EP8 appears much more polished. In many ways EP8 seemed a little incomplete, almost as if half the script was tossed out at the last second (which is technically possible).
I wouldn't agree with the notion that the gameboard narrative of EP8 makes no sense, as explained above, but it was incomplete in many ways, as several elements were hinted at but then dropped a second later, as well as many scene-transitions appearing very much glued together at the last possible moment.
Who knows, maybe if he had just taken one Comiket off EP8 itself might have turned out a little more polished.
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