Character Discussion - Lelouch

[morbosfist]

But when it comes down to it, how much blood did Lelouch really spill in that period? There were the nobles, thousands of pilots (I would venture a guess at about 2k, maybe five as an absolute extreme, and almost all of which died in a single battle), and if the rumors are to be believed a number of dissidents and their families.

"Rivers of blood" seems like an exaggeration to me.

[bladeofdarkness]

not the point really
neku kept ignoring all those deaths saying "its heroic of him to do all that to erase euphie's memory"
completely ignoring that he would murder god only knows how many people in order to get that effect

[Bonzo]

Schneizel killed 200 million of people in a single shot (Pendragon destruction) but he made it on purpose after Lelouch's coup d'etàt, then for the world Schneizel made a good thing like a rebel act against a dictator, who cares if they were all civilians?

About Lelouch, nobody know what he made in the two months after damocles battle and before his death, for the plot, he could do the famous "rivers of blood" during that period and when he decided the damage percentage was good, go for the last act.

[bladeofdarkness]

where on earth did you get the 200 million from ?

[morbosfist]

Yeah, there's no way 200 million people lived in a single palace in the middle of the desert. The world's largest city today has roughly 35 million inhabitants (Tokyo, incidentally). To kill 200 million people in the United States region, you'd have to blow up almost two-thirds of the region. That's an area measured in thousands of kilometers.

[bladeofdarkness]

and the unlimited flejia's effective range was 30 KM
no way did he kill all that many people

[Bonzo]

The first fleija on tokyo destroyed a range of 5 km. and 35 million casualities.
The second on pendragon destroyed for a range of 100 km. and looking the diagram on episode 23, Pendragon size was near to 90 km/2.

To put 35 million in a range of few km/2 is enough incredible already, then why not?

These numbers are in the italian fansub translation, I don't believe they written fantasy numbers.

here a snapshot proof:

[Rising Dragon]

People should keep in mind that the Tokyo Settlement was a layered city.

[Bonzo]

Yes, a subterran multi-level city, we know it, however, a very exaggerated casualities total, ten million was a sufficient number for the plot

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

The first fleija on tokyo destroyed a range of 5 km. and 35 million casualities.
The second on pendragon destroyed for a range of 100 km. and looking the diagram on episode 23, Pendragon size was near to 90 km/2.

To put 35 million in a range of few km/2 is enough incredible already, then why not?

These numbers are in the italian fansub translation, I don't believe they written fantasy numbers.

one the Tokyo blast had 10 million casualties, and that was because Tokyo had such a high population and it hit were they where evacuated from. We don't know how many people lived in Pendragon, for all we know only the Britannian Royal family and people working for them lived their.

As for the actual casualties, considering the fact that Lelouch was called the Demon Emperor, and Charles wasn't tells me that Lelouch's casualities was higher than Charles.

If it was only dissidents he wouldn't get that moniker, because that type of crap happens all the time. I mean how many Dictators have we heard about who kill their political enemies?

[morbosfist]

Just a note: the effective range of the limited FLEIJA is 8km, the unlimited is 100km. Even so, 200 million deaths is simply impossible, especially with Pendragon.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

As for the actual casualties, considering the fact that Lelouch was called the Demon Emperor, and Charles wasn't tells me that Lelouch's casualities was higher than Charles.

If it was only dissidents he wouldn't get that moniker, because that type of crap happens all the time. I mean how many Dictators have we heard about who kill their political enemies?

Charles had good publicity in the homeland, and his regime had support. Lelouch took over the entire world with pure firce and was decidedly less well-liked when he made his intentions clear. If you're going to compare Lelouch to Charles, you need to do it on all points. You're cherry-picking specific elements to make your case work.

[hero147]

Didn't Schneizel plan on bombing all the major cities in the world in order to get his point across? As well, I doubt Lelouch's bad publicity, with inclusion to the name "Demon Emperor" was primarily due to the number of casualties he had, but rather towards the effective use of propaganda. As well keep in mind, even though Hitler receives all the publicity, Stalin's death toll was significantly higher.

As for the body count, I would place Lelouch under Charles because during Charles' rule, Britannia was still conquering several countries throughout the world.

[bladeofdarkness]

and lelouch completed that conquest and took over the ENTIRE world

he also had the media broadcast him as a hero who unified the world and the black knights as the "fools who rebelled against him"
propaganda is a nice concept, but he didnt broadcast messages saying "i'm an evil bastard" all day long
he did what EVERY tyrant does
make the media talk about him like he's a hero and those who opposed him are the bad guys

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and lelouch completed that conquest and took over the ENTIRE world

he also had the media broadcast him as a hero who unified the world and the black knights as the "fools who rebelled against him"
propaganda is a nice concept, but he didnt broadcast messages saying "i'm an evil bastard" all day long
he did what EVERY tyrant does
make the media talk about him like he's a hero and those who opposed him are the bad guys

There's more than one form of propaganda. It's not exclusively limited to media.

[Harrycombs]

Originally Posted by hero147

As well keep in mind, even though Hitler receives all the publicity, Stalin's death toll was significantly higher.

I don't want to go off topic, but that is very debatable. Stalin's death toll is ridiculously high because historians usually count Soviet casualties during WW2, although they should be blamed on Hitler

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Just a note: the effective range of the limited FLEIJA is 8km, the unlimited is 100km. Even so, 200 million deaths is simply impossible, especially with Pendragon.

Charles had good publicity in the homeland, and his regime had support. Lelouch took over the entire world with pure firce and was decidedly less well-liked when he made his intentions clear. If you're going to compare Lelouch to Charles, you need to do it on all points. You're cherry-picking specific elements to make your case work.

Charles had good publicity with THE NOBLES OF BRITANNIA. The information on Lelouch's reign before the final battle makes it clear that Lelouch was very popular with the people of Britannia for his actions against the nobility. Your under the belief that Britannia was some paradise where every single person was a member of nobility.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

There's more than one form of propaganda. It's not exclusively limited to media.

but that is the most effectifve form of propaganda. "Some guy told me" isn't a very good form of propaganda especially in the short time period of two months.

[Bonzo]

OT:

Consider it, in Italy, Berlusconi totally manipulate news on newspapers and television, for to show what to happen in my country how he and the other politicians want, italian people know he's a liar, but there's a total resignation.

That's the reality, but like example work.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Charles had good publicity with THE NOBLES OF BRITANNIA. The information on Lelouch's reign before the final battle makes it clear that Lelouch was very popular with the people of Britannia for his actions against the nobility. Your under the belief that Britannia was some paradise where every single person was a member of nobility.

Likewise, you act like nobility was some small group of people. Virtually every soldier that wasn't a grunt counted as nobility. Everyone in large businesses likely were nobles, etc, etc. Even the non-noble rich people profited. On the whole, very few seem to actively protest Charles' policies except the people being oppressed, but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't approve of change.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

but that is the most effectifve form of propaganda. "Some guy told me" isn't a very good form of propaganda especially in the short time period of two months.

But missing people in large numbers would be.

[akire_and_atem]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Charles had good publicity with THE NOBLES OF BRITANNIA. The information on Lelouch's reign before the final battle makes it clear that Lelouch was very popular with the people of Britannia for his actions against the nobility. Your under the belief that Britannia was some paradise where every single person was a member of nobility.



but that is the most effectifve form of propaganda. "Some guy told me" isn't a very good form of propaganda especially in the short time period of two months.

don't you know that the most effective kind of publicity is the spoken one?! the comments you hear from others gets to more places than any other kind of media. This is a proven thing

[hero147]

Originally Posted by Harrycombs

I don't want to go off topic, but that is very debatable. Stalin's death toll is ridiculously high because historians usually count Soviet casualties during WW2, although they should be blamed on Hitler

The USSR sustained more casualties from Stalin's regime in the interwar period than the actual war!

In regards to the war, the Soviet Red Army was the worst place to be. In the later stages of the war, when Germany was ruthlessly assaulting Russia, Stalin started purging the cowards who wouldn't march to their own death against Germany.

Originally Posted by akire_and_atem

don't you know that the most effective kind of publicity is the spoken one?! the comments you hear from others gets to more places than any other kind of media. This is a proven thing

I'm beginning to believe that Lelouch had his own secret police.