Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Dream]

"I hate this city" ~In Monochrome~

on rock and roll~~

srry for the corny jokes

[Ithekro]

I think it said he visited...it is just Sanae and Akio were always there as well.

It also looks like he mentally starts to treat Ushio like he treated Fuko, but then stops himself...like he's trying not to care because it will bring a painful memory. That and it was both himself and Nagisa that took care of Fuko...which would also be a painful remainder that Nagisa is gone...if he could remember Fuko that is.

[sikvod00]

There's a saying from a sitcom (Frasier, if you must know ) : "You don't just love your child. You fall in love with them." For many, parental love isn't some innate, natural that happens the minute the baby comes out. It's a process that comes with maintaining a relationship and spending time with that individual. Love for your child grows, it isn't static. And we know that Tomoya was pretty much near the starting line compared to Nagisa. Remember his response to Sunohora's question about becoming a father: He had NO clue what it meant or entailed. Worse yet, he didn't seem tocare. Ushio only mattered in terms of Nagisa being pregnant. She was born for Nagisa's sake, not because they both wanted it.

Anyways, I wonder if now that he's largely rehabilitated he's fearful of moving on and falling in love with his daughter--just as he did with Nagisa--only to lose her as well. I also remember what he said after Nagisa's death: It would have been better if they'd never met. He has a problem with moving forward, something that Nagisa implied when she met him after his graduation. In that sense, she's much stronger than him. Having the courage to try your best and move forward; that's the very definition of his dearly beloved.

[Nerroth]

D'awwwwwwww!


Ushio is so cute...


...but damn Tomoya for going all Mr. Bushido - only the mask Tomoya's wearing to hide the better parts of himself away is made of flesh and blood.

[Ithekro]

I don't know what it is...I still mentally try to put Sanae as Rena Ryugu at 45. She's about as persistent as Rena...especially it her nagging/teasing of Tomoya, even over the phone.

Of course this leads to an oddity...don't lie to Sanae...she knows your secrets...all of them.

[Justin Kim]

Ushio is cute, I agree I wish I had a daughter like that when I grow up - and the ending had nice transition, now I know where all that skipping was from

[Change of Pace]

Well, I'll probably get flamed for this, but imho, what an utterly boring episode. I was waiting for something important to happen the whole time, and it just... never came. Possibly because I'm not too fond of kids myself, but geez KyoAni, for those of us who aren't content with sitting around for scenes like Nagato reading a book or Tomoya wandering around aimlessly, at least throw something in. I thought the beginning of the episode, with Tomoya being melancholic was fine, because I was expecting that, but I really did not care that Tomoya fixed up Ushio's turtle and then it breaking again later. In all honesty, I didn't give a shit. And whether or not most of you can go on about the little minor details that make this show so lovable, etc. etc. etc, I'd disagree completely. It seemed that Clannad went from slice-of-life to slice of a very mundane sleep festival; I was thoroughly disappointed that this episode followed last week's tear-jerker. Just... this whole episode has left me feeling very irritated, and this is something I've wanted to say since after story started: I haven't been able to enjoy after story because I spend much of the episodes being irritated at something. In the previous episodes, it was the lack of romance. But now, it's just the lack of... eventful scenes. Imho, this has been the worst episode this season.

Now then, I'll sit back and watch as flame and hatred is poured down on me. But I'll say one thing; I think that people have a problem criticizing their favourite series. Just because I have a low opinion of an episode, people instantly translate that to Nagisa and Clannad hatred, but that's not the case. If I hated the series, I wouldn't watch it every week, but that doesn't take away my ability to coherently judge an episode based on my standards. Hell, I'm still going to get hate, but an opinion's an opinion, right?

[Divini]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I don't know what it is...I still mentally try to put Sanae as Rena Ryugu at 45. She's about as persistent as Rena...

Speaking of Rena...

Spoiler:

汐ちゃんはかわいいよ！　おもちかえりいいい！

Is what I thought every time Ushio was onscreen. Yes, she was THAT adorable

[SnackPacs]

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

Well, I'll probably get flamed for this, but imho, what an utterly boring episode. I was waiting for something important to happen the whole time, and it just... never came. Possibly because I'm not too fond of kids myself, but geez KyoAni, for those of us who aren't content with sitting around for scenes like Nagato reading a book or Tomoya wandering around aimlessly, at least throw something in. I thought the beginning of the episode, with Tomoya being melancholic was fine, because I was expecting that, but I really did not care that Tomoya fixed up Ushio's turtle and then it breaking again later. In all honesty, I didn't give a shit. And whether or not most of you can go on about the little minor details that make this show so lovable, etc. etc. etc, I'd disagree completely. It seemed that Clannad went from slice-of-life to slice of a very mundane sleep festival; I was thoroughly disappointed that this episode followed last week's tear-jerker. Just... this whole episode has left me feeling very irritated, and this is something I've wanted to say since after story started: I haven't been able to enjoy after story because I spend much of the episodes being irritated at something. In the previous episodes, it was the lack of romance. But now, it's just the lack of... eventful scenes. Imho, this has been the worst episode this season.

Now then, I'll sit back and watch as flame and hatred is poured down on me. But I'll say one thing; I think that people have a problem criticizing their favourite series. Just because I have a low opinion of an episode, people instantly translate that to Nagisa and Clannad hatred, but that's not the case. If I hated the series, I wouldn't watch it every week, but that doesn't take away my ability to coherently judge an episode based on my standards. Hell, I'm still going to get hate, but an opinion's an opinion, right?

Exactly, an opinion is an opinion.

But... People DON'T have a problem criticizing the show. It WASN'T boring for MOST of us. Things develop and in this case, it was a heavy focus on the relationship between Ushio and Tomoya.

Key works, based on what I've experienced have ALWAYS been slow paced. Look at Air... Half of the crap that happens in it, while it may be experiences leading Yukito in the right direction, PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN SKIPPED. At least IMHO, when they tossed aside Minagi and Kano so quickly, it was like, "Why did we even bother? They're just ladders raising us up to the main plot."

This is NOTHING new to their works and you sound like someone who started watching this and is completely unfamiliar with how they work. And if that's not the case, you've become an incredibly jaded fan.

I'm not trying to insult you but merely tell you rather than flame you, you're mostly off for the views of fans. I found this a very powerful episode for me, just because of how they were able to evoke so much hate and despising of Tomoya's behavior towards Ushio. Myself and other people have said it plenty, we think Tomoya's being a bastard right now. :P

Everyone takes in fictional works different ways, I'm just sorry to hear you're not receiving it well. But it is most DEFINITELY not as bad as drudging through the first 6-8 episodes of After Story, THAT was a challenge.

[nines]

Mmmm all i have to say i see coming to ushio is, like father like son.

[Ithekro]

Ah but there is another factor aside from "like father like son", there is also "like mother like daughter". If there is anything that can snap Tomoya out of his funk, it will be related to Ushio, just like it was Nagisa that snapped him out of his original funk.

[velvet]

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

I really did not care that Tomoya fixed up Ushio's turtle and then it breaking again later. In all honesty, I didn't give a shit. And whether or not most of you can go on about the little minor details that make this show so lovable, etc. etc. etc, I'd disagree completely.

Ofc no one would give a shit.
I mean, it's the 1st time in 5 years, her dad do something for her.
Wait, no, her whole lifetime.
Oh and no one should give a shit too on why a 5 years old held back crying from falling in her face.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

It seemed that Clannad went from slice-of-life to slice of a very mundane sleep festival; I was thoroughly disappointed that this episode followed last week's tear-jerker. Just... this whole episode has left me feeling very irritated, and this is something I've wanted to say since after story started: I haven't been able to enjoy after story because I spend much of the episodes being irritated at something. In the previous episodes, it was the lack of romance. But now, it's just the lack of... eventful scenes.

Irritated.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

Imho, this has been the worst episode this season.

Pardon me, this whole season? As in spring 2009?
Or in the whole after story?

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

Now then, I'll sit back and watch as flame and hatred is poured down on me. But I'll say one thing; I think that people have a problem criticizing their favourite series. Just because I have a low opinion of an episode, people instantly translate that to Nagisa and Clannad hatred, but that's not the case. If I hated the series, I wouldn't watch it every week, but that doesn't take away my ability to coherently judge an episode based on my standards. Hell, I'm still going to get hate, but an opinion's an opinion, right?

You don't hate things that irritated you. You are a saint, sir.
Why should people hate you?

[Change of Pace]

Originally Posted by SnackPacs

This is NOTHING new to their works and you sound like someone who started watching this and is completely unfamiliar with how they work. And if that's not the case, you've become an incredibly jaded fan.

...And I love how this is the logical conclusion people seem to arrive at; if you don't like it, you aren't a series fan, or you're a newbie. For the record, no, this isn't the first time watching a Key storyline; yes, I did watch Kanon and Air and every other series KyoAni has produced - that is to say, I'm in love with their animation style. And yes, I enjoyed those series, just as I would say on the whole I've enjoyed Clannad and it's been a great ride. But in a thread otherwise full of nothing but praise, me reiterating anything I liked in the episode seems redundant to me; so I skip right to what I didn't. Yeah, sure, I can say After Story's great, but who cares? 4 pages of the same praise doesn't need any more.

Everyone takes in fictional works different ways, I'm just sorry to hear you're not receiving it well. But it is most DEFINITELY not as bad as drudging through the first 6-8 episodes of After Story, THAT was a challenge.

Different opinions is right; after all this, yes, I do prefer the harem over after story at this point, and I didn't mind that portion of after story at all.

Originally Posted by velvet

Ofc no one would give a shit.
I mean, it's the 1st time in 5 years, her dad do something for her.
Wait, no, her whole lifetime.
Oh and no one should give a shit too on why a 5 years old held back crying from falling in her face.

She's 5, and she's grown up with Sanae and Akio, barely ever seeing her father. At this point, "Akii" would take on a much more fatherly role than Tomoya, and hell, he might just be a stranger to her. She's 5, man, aren't you reading too much into this? Isn't there a possibility she was simply bored at home and wanted to go on a trip, regardless of who it was with? She wanted her turtle fixed, regardless of who fixed it? She wanted her rice plain, regardless of who made it? She's not Nagisa. She's just a toddler.

Irritated.

This single word makes for such an enlightening sentence! please, good sir, bestow me with similar insights in the future!

Pardon me, this whole season? As in spring 2009?
Or in the whole after story?

All of After Story is what I'm referring to, if you were unclear about my initial meaning.

You don't hate things that irritated you. You are a saint, sir.
Why should people hate you?

I don't know, but personally, I never recall saying that people COULDN'T or SHOULDN'T hate me. Rather, I was prepared to receive flame, which is indicative that I was aware that my statements may have negative effects on other people, generally coined as "hate". And thank you for informing me, sir, that a forum discussion should be completely one-sided; that no one should have differing opinions; and that everyone should just go along with the flow and type in monotonous praise! Yes; I learned something from your somewhat sarcastic remarks; the best type of post in a discussion thread is the one with no opinion to discuss! Fascinating!

[Proto]

Indeed, in this case, it is a matter of tastes, and as such there is not much worth discussing unless we want to evaluate if slow is better than fast, if character relationships series are better than plot motivated series and the such. (which is just an example of how subjective this is.)

AKA nothing to see here, move on

[velvet]

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

She's 5, and she's grown up with Sanae and Akio, barely ever seeing her father. At this point, "Akii" would take on a much more fatherly role than Tomoya, and hell, he might just be a stranger to her. She's 5, man, aren't you reading too much into this? Isn't there a possibility she was simply bored at home and wanted to go on a trip, regardless of who it was with? She wanted her turtle fixed, regardless of who fixed it? She wanted her rice plain, regardless of who made it? She's not Nagisa. She's just a toddler.

You are right, I apologize. It's true that I read too much.
Read as in Read a book.
And I simply thought it was obvious to everyone.
I need to somehow convince you to watch 1 more episode.
And no. I don't see her as Nagisa.
No matter how much kyoani tried.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

This single word makes for such an enlightening sentence! please, good sir, bestow me with similar insights in the future!

Actually, it's just to connect the fact that you are irritated with:
a)lack of romance
b)lack of... eventful scenes
and you don't hate it. I apologize if I were jumping into conclusions.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

All of After Story is what I'm referring to, if you were unclear about my initial meaning.

I see. I do recall you were irritated with two episodes so far.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

I don't know, but personally, I never recall saying that people COULDN'T or SHOULDN'T hate me. Rather, I was prepared to receive flame, which is indicative that I was aware that my statements may have negative effects on other people, generally coined as "hate". And thank you for informing me, sir, that a forum discussion should be completely one-sided; that no one should have differing opinions; and that everyone should just go along with the flow and type in monotonous praise! Yes; I learned something from your somewhat sarcastic remarks; the best type of post in a discussion thread is the one with no opinion to discuss! Fascinating!

I did all that via 3 sarcastic sentences?

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

and this is something I've wanted to say since after story started: I haven't been able to enjoy after story because I spend much of the episodes being irritated at something.

So 17 episodes is either
a)lack of romance?
b)lack of... eventful scenes?

[panzerfan]

And I think that the Chinese has fondness for their definition of harmony...

This episode honestly is really about the ability for a man to glue that turtle back in one piece and then go and take a crapper! (wow, that knocks my socks off) Change of Pace actually did hit the nail on the board about how dull it is... it is dull once the colors of your life have been fleshed out and you're left with no real zest for interesting things around you. We should be glad that KyoAni decided to not talk about the boredom from year 2-5 after death of Nagisa since life basically stopped in its track for Tomoya.

I will be very disturbed and perhaps suspecting of anyone that would want anything more than what you'd expect a toddler from Ushio. But that's getting sidetracked.

When there's no incredible spectacles to take your minds off the mundane nature of everyday interaction, attention to detail counts for something, whether it'd be in minute interactions or even the backdrop. Those I think have been done well, and personally I enjoyed that quite a bit. Not everyone wants a life without spectacles, and that's all the better, for life will be boring if everyone and everything react as expected.

(come to think of it, let's imagine how exciting it is to animate us all sitting in front of a computer typing our responses, with the audience being anyone nearby you watching your subtle change of emotion as you change the pace that you type out your response, ponder about what words you should use and then see you jet off and get something then return as you furiously press F5 from time to time...)

@Judge Bao: not too late to join Saimoe 2009

[Judge Bao]

Too bad Ushio is too late to join in the International Saimoe League 2009

[kk2extreme]

some very curious question

does anyone know that if ushio was fed with formula or breast fed by sanae?

[Proto]

What makes you think that females have an always active factory of breast milk?

[Ithekro]

Ushio will make it up in ISML next year, just as Mei is doing this year.