2012-02-01, 23:48 | Link #27561 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Also, no couples are brought to the altar, and the love thing is critically important to Yasu's motives. Quote:
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2012-02-01, 23:59 | Link #27562 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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6. The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic. On the rare occasion that a Detective actually does reach the Truth in Umineko, it is barely explained at all. Aside from EP7, where we saw a partial explanation, but still leaving out a whole lot of the important parts and obscuring other parts. In particular, Ange did not reach the Truth in EP8 of her own accord, merely reading it from a book and then rejecting what she read. Quote:
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2012-02-02, 00:25 | Link #27563 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Also, I lack the eloquence to state this opinion well, on the Ikuko issue, but I like things best if she's literally some disturbingly lonely, whimsical woman that picks a hobo up off the street, as we were told. The idea that she might be an adult Yasu not only never really jumped out at me while reading, but also makes that entire plot feel ... really creepy, and morally uncomfortable. Of course, I'm also not really a fan of Yasu, in general. I'm not nearly as sympathetic to the girl as Ryukishi seems to want me to be, so.... |
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2012-02-02, 00:26 | Link #27564 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2012-02-02, 01:04 | Link #27565 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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During the time at which she did bribe the person who checked up on Tohya, Tohya was in shock and barely able to make decisions for himself, Ikuko would have forced him to receive treatment, at which later he apparently doesn't want that. Maybe it's possible that whatever fit Battler went into caused him to actually attempt to start going to hospitals, at some point or another, he has been to a hospital, so I doubt Ikuko was keeping him captive and just suddenly decided to start letting him go. I also don't understand how it's such a horrible thing for Ikuko to be Yasu, I wasn't here like, 10 pages ago or wherever this point was brought up, it's getting harder and harder to keep up with you guys XD. |
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2012-02-02, 01:05 | Link #27566 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Wait just a moment, do ALL of these conflicting Van Dine rules have loopholes that barely allow them to work in Umineko? It feels like Ryukishi just tried his very best to stretch the limits here and make it look like this is impossible. ...I can't find any which don't have loopholes anymore... Wow, Ryukishi. Alright, fine, I'll accept the use of Van Dine now. And, sure, why not, I'll use them in my arguments too. Quote:
...Wait, no. Will used that, and Bern used a Devil's Proof to reject it. Is there actually a corpse?? Bernkastel never confirmed that there was one. Lion was described as "the dead cat" but... He/she was apparently alive until Kyrie came along... Someone who's alive cannot be a corpse. You're kidding... Clair is the corpse? But doesn't that violate... Knox's 7th. It is forbidden for the detective to be the CULPRIT!! So if you choose that option, you'll be taking away Will's status as the Detective. Quote:
So you can't choose that option, because that's a murder he didn't solve. In short, neither the "dead cat" nor the "living cat" can be the corpses in EP7... Quote:
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2012-02-02, 01:26 | Link #27567 | |||
The True Culprit
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The Corpse is a metaphor, since Beatrice doesn't exist in this place. You can see either Clair as the Dead Cat, but she was dead before Will and Clair had their argument. Anyway, 'killing' the opponent is not the same as a murder, in Umineko's Meta-Logic. See: The Battler/Beatrice fights. Quote:
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2012-02-02, 03:11 | Link #27568 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Battler was proving he wasn't the detective with the following logic: Battler says he saw Kinzo + Kinzo could not be mistaken by sight = Battler must be lying = Battler can't be the detective. Some people think Erika can't be deceived due to Detective Authority, which is wrong. Erika does have exceptional sensory and concentration abilities, which can be effectively used to argue that it's impossible for her senses to be deceived, but those abilities are intrinsic to her and don't come from Detective Authority. -------- About Van Dine. I don't think his rules apply to Umineko. One, one, rule was spoken in Red, and it was spoken in a context that had nothing to do with Rokkenjima. Dlanor only existed on Beato's board because Beato allowed her to be there (discussed in EP5's "????"). Will, on the other hand, didn't bring any Red with him. |
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2012-02-02, 03:12 | Link #27569 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Hey, I was going over that older Ryukishi interview with KEIYA at the end of EP8. Regarding the Van Dine rules, he said this:
Spoiler for VanDine not applicable in Umineko:
Which fits with what you guys were talking about, I think. The interview is a pretty good read in case anyone still hasn't read it. http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/ |
2012-02-02, 03:19 | Link #27570 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-02-02, 06:40 | Link #27571 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Therefore Van Dine's 20 rules don't apply to the first four games! CHECK MATE! |
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2012-02-02, 08:03 | Link #27572 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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And according to you, a corpse does not actually exist. Therefore, it's violating the 7th rule. Unless, of course, you decide to just leave Van Dine out of the argument. I don't really mind either way. Now let's see... What were we arguing about again? Hm... I was trying to say that Red Truths aren't useless. Right. And EP7 is my only big obstacle left at the moment. And, specifically, I mainly just need to prove that Will is not the Detective in EP7 alone. ...Unfortunately, Clair's death scene, which is clearly Fantasy side, was told from Lion's perspective, not Will's. And, Will actually did see Kinzo in EP7. I can't say that Will's perspective was never seen, or that he didn't see Kinzo. That's a pain, but it just means I can't throw everything into darkness. Even so, I can explain EP7 by saying that it follows different rules. Don't worry, I have evidence of this. It was said by Will himself: "Lion is a piece placed by Bernkastel. She also said that she'd moved into a larger cat box to place that piece. ......On top of that, it seems this world isn't a proper world, but one made out of several different Fragments sewn together." In short, Beatrice's Red Truth regarding Kinzo only applies to her smaller cat box, in which it was spoken. In this larger cat box, there is room for Kinzo to exist. I have more evidence of this conclusion, of course. "After all, right when I entered the chapel, I spotted Kinzo. Since Shannon has worked for 10 years, this is the stage of Beato's game, 1986. In that case, Kinzo shouldn't exist. However, he definitely was here a few minutes ago." Will acknowledges that, ordinarily, Beatrice's Red Truth would destroy Kinzo. This implies that, if Bern hadn't moved to a bigger cat box, there would be no room for Kinzo to exist. Quote:
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However, it doesn't matter, because there was no corpse in EP7. |
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2012-02-02, 08:20 | Link #27573 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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About Battler and Yasu both holding a mystery game, maybe EP8 having two Game Masters making things complicated is also a hint towards this?
I've also been thinking about the October 6 scene. What they're talking about is probably mostly metaphorical, and the reason for her drowning was at least that Beatrice's illusion was bound to Rokkenjima, and she couldn't live as a human. Battler being calm on a motorboat also seems like an implication that the scene is illusionary. But, maybe Battler wasn't actually afraid of vehicles before October 6th? Something traumatic happened on the boat, which gave him post-traumatic reactions even after losing his memory. It might have been just him falling from the boat, or it might have involved Beatrice as well. This was then interpreted by Tohya as part of Battler's character. It doesn't explain why he's afraid of other vehicles as well... Just throwing a suggestion on how things might have worked. EP7's crime is "Who killed Beatrice?", if that wasn't clear. The remains of the game or something like that could be called the corpse. And Will didn't even have Detective's authority there, I think. KEIYA's interview seems to suggest Ryukishi used Will to show that Van Dine rules don't apply. And you can't say the case wasn't solved with only clues that were presented even if the thought process wasn't shown to us. Actually, in EP7 the solution to "Who killed Beatrice?" was that the actor playing her part did that. It shouldn't apply to Lion's world, which had another solution. After all, this actor doesn't act in Lion's world. It makes me think an instance of Yasuda killing Beatrice happened. Is suicide the solution? Perhaps it's about that she just killed the Beatrice persona when she left the island once and for all. One point to Ikuko=Yasuda. There is the EP5 death to consider as well. If it meant that she had submitted to Natsuhi culprit theory as a solution because she didn't think Battler could reach the truth as I suggested, it can also be seen as killing Beatrice. That is what happens when the truth is exposed, but Yasuda had to make the initiative as Natsuhi culprit theory wasn't actually the correct one. We can doubt if Ikuko's a human being at all, because she doesn't seem to age. Ange does speak of it relatively, though, but the writing focuses on it just a bit too much to be dismissed with that. When thinking about the chance of Ikuko being Yasuda, I interpret the agelessness as another clue for the theory. After all, Yasuda was described as young for her age, and her lack of development might make Ikuko look incredibly youthful to Ange. About Ikuko being evil for not telling the truth... Maybe she didn't know it either? She also had lost her memory at some point! Featherine's memory device got damaged, remember? It works with both interpreting Featherine as just Ikuko or her representing both Tohya and Ikuko. The memory device thing could be about just Tohya, though, in the Featherine is both interpretation. But what if... Thoughts on the connection between Higurashi and Umineko: Spoiler for Higurashi:
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2012-02-02, 08:31 | Link #27574 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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It's true that Beato had lost her memories in EP6. However, I don't think that this in any way implies that Yasuda has lost her memories. |
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2012-02-02, 09:22 | Link #27575 | ||
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People rarely attempt to declare Kinzo dead the few times he's actually totally alive (ep7-8 basically). Although Kinzo is both dead and alive whenever it suits him in ep7, so perhaps that's not the best example. The point being, Kinzo's death is an assumed premise for people who caught on to it based on the earliest "canonical" stories. However, just as Erika can be introduced as a new character, Kinzo could be "revealed" to actually be entirely alive. After all, even in the stories that assume he's dead from the start, there isn't actually ever any proof of that. No one specifically admits to it, his body is never found in a state that suggests he's been dead for long, etc. So "Kinzo is dead" is a safe premise for Battler to argue, but it might not be true. He just guessed correctly that, in ep5, it was true. And the themes of the narrative did support that. By contrast, was Kinzo dead or alive in ep6? There's basically one line about him in the entire board narrative. It wasn't a major theme of the game, so the best we can go with is "He was probably dead, but we don't have any way of knowing."
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2012-02-02, 09:41 | Link #27576 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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A badly burnt corpse has always been a clue that someone needed to obscure the time of death. This should be obvious. Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! As I've already shown, Will supports this because he naturally comes to the conclusion that "if this is Beatrice's game board of 1986, Kinzo must be dead." It should be safe to assume that he's right, and that the only reason Kinzo can exist in EP7 is because a bigger cat box was created. Quote:
The only reason Ange was able to revive her family at the end of EP8 was because, in the real world, there is no Red Truth. In short, she was able to escape to a place that was outside of the range of Red Truth. |
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2012-02-02, 11:16 | Link #27577 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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You are, quite simply, completely wrong.
As has been stated, red is completely worthless for predictive statements. The statement "Kinzo is dead in all games" does not apply to any game created later unless the author chooses to use that premise. Red can only fix a truth value at the time it is stated. Since you appear to be not quite catching on to this, consider the following reds in temporal order: "When Jessica's corpse was discovered..." (Turn) "Jessica is alive." (Banquet) "[A]nyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead." (End) "Battler is alive." (Banquet) "Battler is dead." (Twilight) "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! ... That excludes any 18th person... In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! ... This applies to all games!!!" (Alliance) "Furudo Erika only increases it by one person." (End) "I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!" (Dawn) So basically your red's writing checks your blue can't cash. If red isn't contextual and subject to change, then Jessica died, became alive again, and then died again; Battler is both dead and alive; and Erika both is and is not an 18th person that does and does not exist.
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2012-02-02, 11:46 | Link #27578 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Let me explain. In Turn, Jessica might have been killed and her corpse discovered. At that time, you're free to confirm that Jessica is dead. However, anyone who has any understanding of the English language will be able to see that the statement Jessica is dead only applies to the present moment in the present game. For example, in the past, she is allowed to have been alive. And in a future game, she will be reset so that she can be alive again. There's nothing stupid here like Jessica is dead at the start of all games! because, that just wouldn't work. However, there are certain Red Truths that apply to "all games." This means that any and all games which take place on the game board in question, must abide by these particular Reds. It is a rule to be followed. There is no need to predict anything. If you see a violation of this rule, you can destroy it simply by quoting the rule, spoken in Red. Of course, you can put an illusion of Kinzo on the game board if you want, even after his death is confirmed in Red. But it would only be an illusion. The Detective won't be allowed to see it, or at least, not until they stop being the Detective and therefore gain the right to lie about what they see. Quote:
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2012-02-02, 12:18 | Link #27579 | |||||
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Join Date: May 2009
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"I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes " (Turn) This never happens, at least not literally. She does do some of it later, but Battler is consumed by goats, not burned to ashes, as far as the narrative suggests. And unless you believe this actually happened to Piece-Battler, it never presumably happened at all. "[T]hat Beatrice will never revive again." (Dawn) Disputably true predictive statement. "This is my Golden Land... A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist... [my] magic was not able to revive Sakutarou." (Alliance) Yet it happened. "(various forms of cackling in red)" (Turn) "<Die the death>! <Sentence to death>!!<Great equalizer is the death>!!" (End) "Acknowledged." (Dawn) "Everything is gathered here." (Requiem) These statements are either meaningless nonsense or meaningless without context not defined in red. The context is always temporally fixed and subject to change. See... well, everything ever, but especially the Logic Error. Quote:
Spoiler for Here We Go!:
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2012-02-02, 12:42 | Link #27580 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Although just the fact that it had to be confirmed itself questions the predictive nature of Reds. But even so, Battler applied a Red from EP4 (No one would mistake Kinzo by sight) to the world of EP5. Even if it were wrong to do so, Dlanor, Erika, Bern and Lambda all let it pass. There is the possible argument that since Battler only needed clues at the time, not proof, he could get away with applying Red predictively. Although Battler spoke a further Red that would not be logically certain unless the above mentioned Red was intrinsically predictive when he said "In other words, on this island, all illusions which might lead someone to mistake something for Grandfather, including someone else pretending to be Grandfather, 'most certainly cannot work'." It's all quite fuzzy, if you ask me. Ikuko=Yasu |
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