[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, don't forget that Natsuhi and Krauss would be the prime suspects for this murder (Battler had stolen the headship from them), and both of them were in the mansion. Erika thought that she had an ally in Eva (since Eva hates those two).

Also, as I've said, we already know that someone was trying to frame Natsuhi. Why wouldn't try to get Erika to help?

It just seems like she homes in on them aggressively. Also, Battler and Kyrie outright prevent Erika from catching Natsuhi in Hideyoshi's room. I think that makes it clear she's suspicious of something, but that she's being led along unwittingly as well.

I agree she was clearly being led into it, but you'd think someone as supposedly smart as her could tell that.

And if someone was stupid enough to enter through the windows, Erika would be able to narrow down the suspects to the people who were in the mansion. She could then rely on testimony from there to help her further.

True, but that would still let her suspect Natsuhi.

Well, I imagine that they were trying to set up an impossible murder, but got stuck when the culprit snuck the fake corpses away and killed them. And Hideyoshi's murder was 100% real. Plus, they had to be confused about why Krauss was missing. In other words, their plans were screwed up almost from the beginning, so it's hard to tell what they were trying to do.

Do we know some of that wasn't part of the plot? Krauss's kidnapping almost certainly not, but the body disappearance could have just been Rosa and the kids sneaking off to the appointed "hiding spot" and getting iced by the culprit there. And I think it very plausible that Hideyoshi was never attacked at all. They treat his body in a manner completely unlike most others in other games.

Well, remember that Erika's vigil starts when Rosa comes in. There's a chance that she wasn't planning the vigil until she saw Rosa. Or, it could be that she was talking with Nanjo about the whole thing. The people at the mansion would need Nanjo on their side eventually. It makes sense that they would phone him at about midnight to tell him about the plan and to get Erika all worked up about it (they couldn't call him later, since Erika was with him all the time).

She's being made out to not be very bright at all. Granted, she's not as smart as she believes she is, but this whole situation just seems... obviously designed to make her suspect one particular culprit, and sure enough, she goes right for it.

[Judoh]

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7247

Well Guys I did show that it's possible Erika could be hired to investigate something on the island. Not necessarily a series of murders, but a lot of people are already suspicious of Natushi and Krauss about Kinzo's death and embezzlement of his money...

What's to say Erika wasn't just keeping them inside the rooms so they wouldn't interfere with her investigation of these things? And then when the murders happened she upgraded the suspected crime from "conspiracy to hide Kinzo's death/embezzlement" to "those things plus a murder scheme".

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Do we know some of that wasn't part of the plot? Krauss's kidnapping almost certainly not, but the body disappearance could have just been Rosa and the kids sneaking off to the appointed "hiding spot" and getting iced by the culprit there.

Good point. But if that is the case, they were probably meant to have some further role later on (like setting up a closed room that no one was supposed to be near). If they didn't show up for that role for any reason, that would have screwed up Battler's plans.

Originally Posted by Renall

And I think it very plausible that Hideyoshi was never attacked at all. They treat his body in a manner completely unlike most others in other games.

You know, I thought that too at first, but it doesn't seem to add up. First off, the culprit told Natsuhi to hide in that room. It's possible that the culprit had heard of the plan before then, and wanted Natsuhi to be framed for that. However, that would be a bit pointless, since almost everyone except Natsuhi knows that it's all a prank, and it would only take a few words from them to set things straight.

The real problem is Eva's reaction at the end. She was seriously beating Natsuhi up for killing Hideyoshi. While Eva personally might not mind overplaying her part that much, I seriously doubt anyone else, especially Battler, would let her do that for even a second if they knew for a fact that Natsuhi was innocent.

Also, there was only one death, Hideyoshi's. If the first six deaths were supposed to be the first twilight, why wouldn't the second murder have two deaths for the second twilight? Maybe Eva was getting ready to join Hideyoshi in that guest room before acting the part of the second twilight, but someone actually killed Hideyoshi before she could get there.

Edit: @Judoh:
If Erika was hired by Kyrie, why would she have set up seals all around the guest house? You'd think the mansion would be where her interest lay. Still, I definitely agree that it's very possible someone sent her to the island. However, it's implied in the EP6 tips that her family knew she was on a pleasure boat...

[luckyssol]

Regarding the discussion over the last few pages I think it's clear that the same few people on this forum will never accept Chronotrig's theory no matter how much of the game it explains.

That said, if we were never given "１７人だ" I wonder if the theory would still be defended by it's supporters on the same level that currently is.

---------------------------

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well if we beleive what Ssol said playing the name game may not even be necessary for Kanon to be the rescuer.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1676

What I posted was the original Japanese directly from the game itself, not something that was made up.

---------------------------

The murderer in episode 6 was given to us with red truth. In that respect, there was no mystery to solve unlike all the previous games. There was no difficulty level unlike all the previous games.

The solution to the logic error has some importance but I think it's much more important to look at the game board that Battler presented to prove that he knew the answer. Under Beatrice's game board rules, he could have easily shown crazy magic scenes to confuse Erika. However, he did not do that.

Think about why Battler showed the first twilight in the manner that he did. Think about the purpose of the love trials. I believe these are steps toward the answer.

Ryukishi said episode 6 would probably focus more on story than mystery in an interview before the episode was released.

----------------------------

Regarding Erika, remember the interview Chronotrig translated:

--Tell me about the new characters.

Ryuukishi: Both Erika and Dlanor are holding a thought game from a very different position than the one Battler has been coming from before now. Their existence is not only a way to make this tale more dramatic, but also a large hint.

--It felt as though you had detectives in mystery novels very firmly in mind when you created Erika.

Ryuukishi: That's right. Her character shares many traits that were maliciously extracted from those held by great detectives. With sealing the doors and the like, she is unlike Battler in that she's a hard worker, or maybe you could say she puts a lot of effort into her plans...... People vary on whether they like or dislike Erika. While Battler's enemies before now have specialized in confusing him, Erika comes at him from the exact opposite direction, and I think this leads to a different kind of battle than the ones we've seen so far. I hope this becomes a new light to shine on the riddle-filled world of Umineko. It seems that some of our users have wondered "Did he use her as a representative of users who write malicious theories?", but I leave such interpretations up to you. Umineko's focus on battles every time is part of the world's layout, so we must have a character who stands in clear opposition to Battler. So, if Erika had been a normal person, perhaps the battle and the tale wouldn't have become so exciting. Though I think Erika herself is just bad at choosing her words and not really such a bad person.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Good point. But if that is the case, they were probably meant to have some further role later on (like setting up a closed room that no one was supposed to be near). If they didn't show up for that role for any reason, that would have screwed up Battler's plans.

True, but here's the problem: At the time, they shouldn't know everyone is dead... so Eva is putting on a hell of an act, as you noted later. But she's also mad about George being dead. But... just because the bodies vanished (whether they were supposed to sneak out or not), she shouldn't know George is dead.

Plus, no further twilights seem necessary. Erika has already "caught" the "culprit."

What's odd is, Krauss surely can't be in on a plot to frame his own wife, especially given the probable motive (to force her to finally admit to Kinzo's status). So why did no one seem to care that Krauss was missing? Where did they think he was? Why didn't anyone look for him? Were the "missing" people killed looking for Krauss? If so, who was alone with Krauss at the time to be able to kidnap and kill him, then kill the others?

You know, I thought that too at first, but it doesn't seem to add up. First off, the culprit told Natsuhi to hide in that room. It's possible that the culprit had heard of the plan before then, and wanted Natsuhi to be framed for that. However, that would be a bit pointless, since almost everyone except Natsuhi knows that it's all a prank, and it would only take a few words from them to set things straight.

Someone told Natsuhi to hide in the room. We can't be positive it's the culprit. And if it were, why not allow Erika to open the closet and find Natsuhi hiding there? If Hideyoshi's really dead, Battler stopping Erika from finding the "culprit" is illogical. And Battler can't be the culprit himself.

The real problem is Eva's reaction at the end. She was seriously beating Natsuhi up for killing Hideyoshi. While Eva personally might not mind overplaying her part that much, I seriously doubt anyone else, especially Battler, would let her do that for even a second if they knew for a fact that Natsuhi was innocent.

Maybe he doesn't, and that's why he speaks up at the end.

But see above; Eva shouldn't know George is dead, yet she seems just as mad at Natsuhi for killing him as Hideyoshi... but when would she have had any time to kill the kids? We know Natsuhi didn't kill anyone, but more importantly, so does everyone else, because the deaths were supposed to be fake. And I'm not sure Natsuhi had a lot of time to go back and really kill everyone. And why would she?

Also, there was only one death, Hideyoshi's. If the first six deaths were supposed to be the first twilight, why wouldn't the second murder have two deaths for the second twilight? Maybe Eva was getting ready to join Hideyoshi in that guest room before acting the part of the second twilight, but someone actually killed Hideyoshi before she could get there.

If the killer were trying to deliberately create a Second Twilight, ought he wait for Eva? Why have Natsuhi there? What if Natsuhi tries to help, which she considered but didn't do?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

True, but here's the problem: At the time, they shouldn't know everyone is dead... so Eva is putting on a hell of an act, as you noted later. But she's also mad about George being dead. But... just because the bodies vanished (whether they were supposed to sneak out or not), she shouldn't know George is dead.

Well, we don't know for sure. A large part of the day has passed by the time Hideyoshi is killed. For all we know, someone left to investigate the real murders when Erika wasn't looking, saying that they were heading for the bathroom or something. Since Erika was willing to let at least Hideyoshi and Eva go off on their own, this should be possible.

Originally Posted by Renall

Plus, no further twilights seem necessary. Erika has already "caught" the "culprit."

The plan probably wasn't to entertain Erika with a fun murder mystery. If anything, it was so that Battler could get back a bit at Erika for mocking Jessica, Kinzo, and the legend of the witch itself. So Erika "catching" the culprit probably isn't ever a part of their plan. It was probably supposed to be a perfect closed room.

Originally Posted by Renall

What's odd is, Krauss surely can't be in on a plot to frame his own wife, especially given the probable motive (to force her to finally admit to Kinzo's status). So why did no one seem to care that Krauss was missing? Where did they think he was? Why didn't anyone look for him? Were the "missing" people killed looking for Krauss? If so, who was alone with Krauss at the time to be able to kidnap and kill him, then kill the others?

Remember that Krauss was told the lie about the letter with the ring. So it's more likely that Battler, with the new authority given to him by the ring, forced Krauss to play along with their little game. Of course, Battler doesn't care much for money himself, so he could easily have offered Krauss everything he needed to solve his problems. This means the others might have just figured that Krauss had decided to not play along for some reason. They would think it odd, but at that point in time, no one has reason to suspect that there's a real murderer about.

And, as I've said above, it's possible that someone did go to look for Krauss at one point, though we didn't see it specifically.

Originally Posted by Renall

Someone told Natsuhi to hide in the room. We can't be positive it's the culprit. And if it were, why not allow Erika to open the closet and find Natsuhi hiding there? If Hideyoshi's really dead, Battler stopping Erika from finding the "culprit" is illogical. And Battler can't be the culprit himself.

Actually, I think we can be fairly certain that that person was the culprit. They were the same person who put Krauss on the phone to talk to Natsuhi, and according to the red text, Krauss was killed immediately after that phone call.

I'm sure the culprit would be happy whether Natsuhi was found or not. Remember what he said: "it doesn't matter whether you win or lose". If she had been found, she'd be impossibly suspicious. Even though she wasn't, she was still the most suspicious by far.

And Battler didn't know that anyone was in the closet. There's no evidence that he was intentionally trying to stop her from opening it. It's perfectly reasonable to think that he wanted to keep an eye on her, especially now that things were going wrong with his plan.

Originally Posted by Renall

Maybe he doesn't, and that's why he speaks up at the end.

No, I don't think he'd wait that long. We see everyone in the room watching in silence for several minutes without doing anything. That just doesn't seem reasonable at all to me.

Originally Posted by Renall

But see above; Eva shouldn't know George is dead, yet she seems just as mad at Natsuhi for killing him as Hideyoshi... but when would she have had any time to kill the kids? We know Natsuhi didn't kill anyone, but more importantly, so does everyone else, because the deaths were supposed to be fake. And I'm not sure Natsuhi had a lot of time to go back and really kill everyone. And why would she?

The only other time Eva survives after Hideyoshi's death, she ends up killing Battler. I seriously doubt she'd be able to think logically after her husband has died, and if, as I've said above, she knows or suspects that George has also disappeared, I think she'd blame the person directly in front of her. We already know that she loses her head when she's angry.

One more possibility. Remember the reason we discover that the corpses have been moved. Natsuhi rushes to the guesthouse to give herself time to think (about the Kinzo case). Everyone tries to stop her, but she goes anyways. In other words, the original plan did not call for people returning to the first closed room. So, for all we know, those "victims" weren't supposed to be moved at all. When they were discovered missing, it's only natural that some people would suspect that they had been taken. And when Hideyoshi's corpse was discovered, it makes sense that Eva would be certain of that suspicion.

Originally Posted by Renall

If the killer were trying to deliberately create a Second Twilight, ought he wait for Eva? Why have Natsuhi there? What if Natsuhi tries to help, which she considered but didn't do?

Well, if you kill Hideyoshi before Eva, you actually make things much more confusing and nasty. It would have the effect that it ended up having: Eva beating up Natsuhi.

Also, anyone who understands Natsuhi's personality knows that it's very unlikely that she'd actually try to help. At most, she might peek out of the door, but I doubt she'd ever actually do that. Even if she did look, it's likely that no one would believe her.

[Renall]

You can't possibly know Natsuhi's personality well enough to be certain she won't help when someone's being killed in front of her. Especially if someone were trying to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi. In that circumstance, Natsuhi might think she had a better chance (3 on 1). Either way, it would mess up the real culprit bad if she screws anything up. It's better not to have her there at all.

Also: Who says the caller killed Krauss? Hmm? All we're told is Krauss was killed shortly after making the call. Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it? Doesn't say who killed him.

So I could theorize: The phone voice guy was George (or heck, even Jessica or Rosa if they could fake it somehow well enough), and "kidnapping" or kidnapping Krauss was part of the story. However, the real culprit killed Krauss and the "kidnapper" shortly after the call. The red text was meant to suggest to Natsuhi that the caller killed Krauss, but that's hardly proof that he or she did.

I think Battler did know someone was in the closet. Kyrie rushes them to the bathroom, then Battler hustles Erika out when she shows an interest in the closet. What possible harm could there be in letting her open it? If Battler doesn't know anyone's in there, there's no harm letting her check (especially if Hideyoshi really died). If he does, now he has a reason to prevent her from looking. It only makes sense if he knows Natsuhi is supposed to be in there.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Again, if even Dlanor doesn't know about Kanon = Kinzo, why is it that Beato figures it out when everything points to Shkanontrice? Or are you suggesting that no one knew and it worked by some kind of coincidence?

Is it really that shocking to suggest that Beato might be smarter than Dlanor? This whole game did originally come out of her head to begin with, even if she doesn't remember it. Lambda basically called her previous self a genius mystery novelist.

By comparison, Dlanor didn't even catch the faked deaths in EP5, so it's not like she has a record of perfect play.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Edit: @Judoh:
If Erika was hired by Kyrie, why would she have set up seals all around the guest house? You'd think the mansion would be where her interest lay. Still, I definitely agree that it's very possible someone sent her to the island. However, it's implied in the EP6 tips that her family knew she was on a pleasure boat...

Well Like I said I think the seals were meant to keep people she expected to interfere with her other investigation inside their rooms. I think she was investigating something other than the murders.

Maybe the talk with Nanjo was partly about Natsuhi's headaches. If that's true it may not have even been necessary to seal her room because she would've been there all night.

Also I think Krauss's room is in the mansion too it's just on a different side of the mansion isn't it?

Originally Posted by Renall

Plus, no further twilights seem necessary. Erika has already "caught" the "culprit.

Ignoring the interview where Ryukishi said that after Hideyoshi's death the murders that happen afterward are solvable for people who know the "answer"

Originally Posted by Renall

Someone told Natsuhi to hide in the room. We can't be positive it's the culprit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the phone calls were different each time right? sometimes he used "ore" and sometimes "boku". Which means that George, Battler, and Rudolf are potential callers.

Originally Posted by Renall

So why did no one seem to care that Krauss was missing? Where did they think he was? Why didn't anyone look for him? Were the "missing" people killed looking for Krauss? If so, who was alone with Krauss at the time to be able to kidnap and kill him, then kill the others?

Originally Posted by Renall

If the killer were trying to deliberately create a Second Twilight, ought he wait for Eva? Why have Natsuhi there? What if Natsuhi tries to help, which she considered but didn't do?

I think the reason Hideyoshi was killed is because Krauss wasn't found. The twilights usually are satisfied when the detective sees or hears about people who are found dead. Kanon's death is the only time this doesn't happen. Maybe Hideyoshi was killed simply because nobody went looking for Krauss. As virglia said maybe there really were only 5 sacrifices this time until Hideyoshi's event.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Ignoring the interview where Ryuksihi said that after Hideyoshi's death the murders that happen afterward are solvable for people who know the "answer"

Oh don't misunderstand me. The killings would continue, because the actual murderer wasn't caught. But the "fake" storyline concocted would be over once the "right" culprit, Natsuhi, was cornered. If the faked First Twilight was supposed to be an epitaph murder (remember, everyone knows the epitaph does not describe a murder ritual at this point in ep5), then those are over and done with. Unless the real culprit starts doing stakings and stuff, of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the phone calls were different each time right? sometimes he used "ore" and sometimes "boku". Which means that George, Battler, and Rudolf are potential callers.

I thought he did that within the same calls.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also: Who says the caller killed Krauss? Hmm? All we're told is Krauss was killed shortly after making the call. Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it? Doesn't say who killed him.

So I could theorize: The phone voice guy was George (or heck, even Jessica or Rosa if they could fake it somehow well enough), and "kidnapping" or kidnapping Krauss was part of the story. However, the real culprit killed Krauss and the "kidnapper" shortly after the call. The red text was meant to suggest to Natsuhi that the caller killed Krauss, but that's hardly proof that he or she did.

This isn't possible, because George (and Jessica and Rosa) was in the cousins' room for the entire period that the call took place. There might be some fudging of the time of the call, but Battler yelled for help at 7am and the cousins' room was under perfect observation by Erika before that. It becomes possible if George actually wasn't in the room at the time Battler yelled, but in that case there's no explanation for why the door was found unlocked later.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also: Who says the caller killed Krauss? Hmm? All we're told is Krauss was killed shortly after making the call. Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it? Doesn't say who killed him.

So I could theorize: The phone voice guy was George (or heck, even Jessica or Rosa if they could fake it somehow well enough), and "kidnapping" or kidnapping Krauss was part of the story. However, the real culprit killed Krauss and the "kidnapper" shortly after the call. The red text was meant to suggest to Natsuhi that the caller killed Krauss, but that's hardly proof that he or she did.

Given what the caller said to Natsuhi I highly doubt that it was just a coincidence that they happened at similar times. Again, it's also very likely that there was more than one person who called Natsuhi.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Is it really that shocking to suggest that Beato might be smarter than Dlanor? This whole game did originally come out of her head to begin with, even if she doesn't remember it. Lambda basically called her previous self a genius mystery novelist.

By comparison, Dlanor didn't even catch the faked deaths in EP5, so it's not like she has a record of perfect play.

In Dlanor's defense, it was Erika's job to be the detective.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

.I thought he did that within the same calls.

I didn't read the Japanese of episode 5 so I'm not sure.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This isn't possible, because George (and Jessica and Rosa) was in the cousins' room for the entire period that the call took place. There might be some fudging of the time of the call, but Battler yelled for help at 7am and the cousins' room was under perfect observation by Erika before that. It becomes possible if George actually wasn't in the room at the time Battler yelled, but in that case there's no explanation for why the door was found unlocked later.

Well, you can still make it work with the caller not being the killer. Either someone else called, there was some fudgery to ensure the caller could call, or the caller had Krauss call Natsuhi, then left to go do something else. Krauss was then killed by somebody, who later went after the caller (unless the caller is one of the people who survived, in which case they just went to kill the FT victims).

EDIT: Mind you, the caller could be the culprit, but I don't know if his calls really suit the killer's purposes. Especially if Hideyoshi's death isn't faked. Why would you have somebody hide in a room you plan to murder someone in? What if she gets a look at your face by mistake? That'd be a fatal mistake for you. Also, threatening to kill Krauss when you've already killed him? I mean of course it's possible since Natsuhi doesn't know that yet, but wouldn't he remain somewhat useful to you for as long as you can control him? Or can the culprit not do that for long?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

You can't possibly know Natsuhi's personality well enough to be certain she won't help when someone's being killed in front of her. Especially if someone were trying to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi. In that circumstance, Natsuhi might think she had a better chance (3 on 1). Either way, it would mess up the real culprit bad if she screws anything up. It's better not to have her there at all.

Well, the culprit obviously knew her well enough to know that she'd fall for that stupid card trick. Yes, he couldn't know with 100% probability, but he could have been reasonably sure. Remember that he threatened to kill Krauss if she broke the rules. Natsuhi isn't very likely to do anything that might anger the culprit and risk her husband's life.

And the whole point is having her there to remove her alibi so that she can be framed. If the culprit didn't do that, they couldn't guarantee that Natsuhi would have no alibi.


Remember that the culprit has to be a risk-taker if they're trying to kill all of these people alone. Anyone who knows how much Natsuhi loves her husband would know that the risk here was relatively low.

Originally Posted by Renall

Also: Who says the caller killed Krauss? Hmm? All we're told is Krauss was killed shortly after making the call. Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it? Doesn't say who killed him.

So I could theorize: The phone voice guy was George (or heck, even Jessica or Rosa if they could fake it somehow well enough), and "kidnapping" or kidnapping Krauss was part of the story. However, the real culprit killed Krauss and the "kidnapper" shortly after the call. The red text was meant to suggest to Natsuhi that the caller killed Krauss, but that's hardly proof that he or she did.

I can't prove it, but it seems incredibly likely that the voice killed him. If Battler is behind the fake murders, there's no way in hell that he'd have told someone to make that call. I really don't think Battler is cruel like that. So you'd need to have one rogue tying up Krauss, putting him in front of the phone, and leaving him alone for some reason while another rogue comes and kills Krauss. That seems needlessly complex, and I'll have trouble believing it unless there is some evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Renall

I think Battler did know someone was in the closet. Kyrie rushes them to the bathroom, then Battler hustles Erika out when she shows an interest in the closet. What possible harm could there be in letting her open it? If Battler doesn't know anyone's in there, there's no harm letting her check (especially if Hideyoshi really died). If he does, now he has a reason to prevent her from looking. It only makes sense if he knows Natsuhi is supposed to be in there.

Well, don't forget the situation here. Everyone heads back to the parlor with Hideyoshi's body, including Battler. Erika hangs behind alone, and Battler comes back for her, telling her to come with him.

In other words, Battler would have done the exact same thing whether he knew that someone was in the cupboard or not. He's not going to leave Erika alone just after a real murder, both for her safety, and because he might suspect that she is the culprit. Remember, at the time Hideyoshi's corpse was found, Erika was nowhere to be seen. She claimed to have been "checking the shutters", but Battler had no way of knowing that this was true. And, judging by EP6, whatever reasons Battler had for suspecting her, they were pretty accurate.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Is it really that shocking to suggest that Beato might be smarter than Dlanor? This whole game did originally come out of her head to begin with, even if she doesn't remember it. Lambda basically called her previous self a genius mystery novelist.

By comparison, Dlanor didn't even catch the faked deaths in EP5, so it's not like she has a record of perfect play.

You have to look through the section just before Beato figures everything out. She's really slow, and needs a lot of prodding before she finally figures out what the answer is. And during her "revelation", there's this long talk that her "mother" has to her (mother is probably former Beatrice), saying that she has now inherited her love for Battler. This makes sense for Shkanontrice, but not at all for Kanon=Kinzo. So you'd have to assume that Beato was lead by the hand by someone trying to suggest Shkanon to her, but then suddenly realized that Kanon was Kinzo.

Do we know that Dlanor didn't catch the faked deaths from EP5? I think she keeps a lot of things hidden from us.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You have to look through the section just before Beato figures everything out. She's really slow, and needs a lot of prodding before she finally figures out what the answer is. And during her "revelation", there's this long talk that her "mother" has to her (mother is probably former Beatrice), saying that she has now inherited her love for Battler. This makes sense for Shkanontrice, but not at all for Kanon=Kinzo. So you'd have to assume that Beato was lead by the hand by someone trying to suggest Shkanon to her, but then suddenly realized that Kanon was Kinzo.

Query: Could it somehow also suggest Kanontrice? I'm mostly just curious. She might not realize something like kanon = kinzo (which, I agree with you, is technically plausible but doesn't really make sense for Beato to recognize), but maybe she was realizing something about Kanon. After all, it's Kanon who gets involved in the logic error, not Shannon (whether you believe in personalities or people, it's the Kanon one who acts).

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, the culprit obviously knew her well enough to know that she'd fall for that stupid card trick. Yes, he couldn't know with 100% probability, but he could have been reasonably sure.

This really is just a simple card trick. You don't even need to know what her favorite season is if there are four cards for each season in the same room. You just tell her where the card is when she answers.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Remember that he threatened to kill Krauss if she broke the rules. Natsuhi isn't very likely to do anything that might anger the culprit and risk her husband's life.

I wonder why someone killed Krauss right after the call then. If the caller killed Krauss he can't be Beatrice because he obviously doesn't keep his promises.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Query: Could it somehow also suggest Kanontrice? I'm mostly just curious. She might not realize something like kanon = kinzo (which, I agree with you, is technically plausible but doesn't really make sense for Beato to recognize), but maybe she was realizing something about Kanon. After all, it's Kanon who gets involved in the logic error, not Shannon (whether you believe in personalities or people, it's the Kanon one who acts).

Well, it almost certainly includes Kanontrice, but if you look at the section immediately before that, they're clearly talking about Shkanon. There's this whole thing about "Why is it wrong for furniture to fall in love?" "Don't you think it's wrong for a married man to fall in love with another woman?" "Of course." "There you go. Neither of the two duelists makes up a full person." "???"
And there's no way (besides Kinzo=Kanon) for Kanon to be anywhere except the cousins' room, unless he's one of the people in the neighboring room.

By the way, if you do want to try and use Kanontrice here, you must accept that Kanon loves Battler with all his heart...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

This really is just a simple card trick. You don't even need to know what her favorite season is if there are four cards for each season in the same room. You just tell her where the card is when she answers.

That's not what I meant. I mean they realized that Natsuhi wouldn't realize something that simple was a trick.

Originally Posted by Judoh

I wonder why someone killed Krauss right after the call. If caller killed Krauss he can't be Beatrice because he obviously doesn't keep his promises.

Oh, yes. There's no way that Sayo (or whoever the normal killer is) is the culprit in EP5. Totally not her style, anyways.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

Query: Could it somehow also suggest Kanontrice? I'm mostly just curious. She might not realize something like kanon = kinzo (which, I agree with you, is technically plausible but doesn't really make sense for Beato to recognize), but maybe she was realizing something about Kanon. After all, it's Kanon who gets involved in the logic error, not Shannon (whether you believe in personalities or people, it's the Kanon one who acts).

In that scene we were shown flashes of the closed rooms that original Beatrice used from the first four games.

I think it's clear that Beato needed to understand all the closed rooms from the previous games to reach the answer.