About Shinn and Kira...

[NoOneKnowS]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, sorry for prefering Shinn's character over Kira's. Especially Destiny Kira's. I call Yamato "cyborg" because he seemed to be one. A combat machine. But they somehow corrected it in Special Edition. Still, it did not wipe out my bad impression of his character from the actual second series.

Then there's no point in discussing on who's better since you prefer Shin. Your biased and were comparing 2 MS pilots w/ different MS (Shin has the better one) and doing different roles (Shin always attacks. W/c is easier than defending and Entire ship and you're only back-up is a Mobile Armour.)

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Yeah. Kira always fought named enemies, spending most of the rest of his screentime crying to the pillow. Shinn pretty much faced as many named enemies, including opur merry band AND he killed many grunts on the way.

Yeah, and Shinn mostly destroys useless grunts, spending most of his time thinking about his sister, unable to get over the past.

It's funny how you described how Kira was in SEED, and ignored Shinn's character in Destiny. If anyone was a cyborg character, it's Shinn.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Then there's no point in discussing on who's better since you prefer Shin. Your biased and were comparing 2 MS pilots w/ different MS (Shin has the better one) and doing different roles (Shin always attacks. W/c is easier than defending and Entire ship and you're only back-up is a Mobile Armour.)

I don't see how prefering one character over another warrant stopping the discussion. I mean people are always going to like one character over another. I personally like Yzak and Dearka more than Kira/Athrun/Shinn, but I'll admit any time that they are without a doubt inferior pilots.

Originally Posted by Neku

If anyone was a cyborg character, it's Shinn.

Care to elaborate?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, sorry for prefering Shinn's character over Kira's. Especially Destiny Kira's. I call Yamato "cyborg" because he seemed to be one. A combat machine. But they somehow corrected it in Special Edition. Still, it did not wipe out my bad impression of his character from the actual second series.

You don't get it, I have no problem with you preferring Shinn over Kira, that's your choice to make. But your comments that I quoted was unnecessary and out of place in a discussion about battle performance. And how is Kira a cyborg when he's pure flesh and blood? Seriously, a cyborg? I think you're confusing him with Waltfeld.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eagles

Care to elaborate?

The part you cut off; merge it with what you quoted as a whole, and read it again. Also, read Sir Dearka's definition of "cyborg", if you don't mind.

[Dark Shikra]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

LOL, you seem to conveniently ommit the fact that right from the beginning Shinn fought the three druggies. Then he killed Auel, and then Sting in Destroy.

LOL back at you.
You didn't read properly?? I said side unimportant characters. Since when Auel and Sting are important characters??

Don't forget that Sting was also defeated by 3 Murasame, and Shinn in Destiny.

And then he beat Yamato in Impulse. If you feel cheated, go to Kira because of his "WTF-I-was-suppposed-to-overwhelm-him" he lost the fight. That's one cheap excuse of his defenders. Kira in the first season was great, too, but less memorable in performance as a pilot than Shinn, I think. He had less of those "wow, that's nicely done" moments than Asuka IMO.

You are blinded by your fanboyism.
Kira lost the fight and I feel cheated are both two different things. I don't mind if Kira lost the fight with Shinn cheating by replacing parts. But it is a lousy way to win when it is clear that the sword suddenly got the beam to thrust Freedom, and after he thrusted it, the beam is BOOM! GONE!!

SO stupid and lousy that Shinn can only win Freedom like that.

What was really cheap was Kira owning everyone in Strike Freedom. Strike Freedom's design is cheap in comparison to Freedoms. And Destiny cyborg Kira is cheap in comparison to first SEED Kira. It's just my opinion and you may look at it differently.

Yes I do look at it differently. I think Shinn in Destiny is more cheap.
Kira didn't own everyone in Strike Freedom. He took Rey by surprise but why can't he own everyone in Destiny? Even Athrun is on his side, and there is no one like Rau to fight him.

In the end the only character Shinn really losed to was Athrun. They had to make up in this lousy way the fact that young Zala actually sucked in his new role throughout almost the whole series. "Hey, so what that I've learnt so many things about friendship and justice in the first season. Look, those are my friends. Let me join ZAFT again abd face them in combat!" ROTFL

See. Your fanboyism is acting up again when you say Athrun defeating Shinn is to make up for his character.

Athrun was above Shinn in ZAFT once if you cannot remember. He knows Shinn better than anyone from his attitude and his fighting tactics. Clearly the "apprentice" still cannot match his "master".

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

The part you cut off; merge it with what you quoted as a whole, and read it again. Also, read Sir Dearka's definition of "cyborg", if you don't mind.

He called Kira a 'cyborg' because Kira shows basically no emotion in Destiny. And not in a 'he's hiding his emotions' kind of way, but in a 'he has no emotions' kind of way. Maybe you misinterpreted what Sir Dearka wrote (or I did).

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

LOL back at you.
You didn't read properly?? I said side unimportant characters. Since when Auel and Sting are important characters??

I'm sure it can be argued that Dearka/Yzak/Nicol aren't important characters, depending one what your definition of 'important' is.

Kira lost the fight with Shinn cheating by replacing parts.

lol at Shinn cheating. And you called Sir Dearka the fanboy? Calling it not a 'fair fight' is reasonable enough, but Shinn cheated in a war? What's Shinn supposed to do? Not use his Gundam to it's fullest potential?

But it is a lousy way to win when it is clear that the sword suddenly got the beam to thrust Freedom, and after he thrusted it, the beam is BOOM! GONE!!

If you mean the beam at the tip of the sword, I've seen a picture of a model sword with the all around the tip.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Then there's no point in discussing on who's better since you prefer Shin. Your biased and were comparing 2 MS pilots w/ different MS (Shin has the better one) and doing different roles (Shin always attacks. W/c is easier than defending and Entire ship and you're only back-up is a Mobile Armour.)

Well, as Eagles said, it's just natural that one could be biased towards one or another character. We are just subjective beings and we tend to like or dislike stuff.

Originally Posted by Neku

Yeah, and Shinn mostly destroys useless grunts, spending most of his time thinking about his sister, unable to get over the past.

It's funny how you described how Kira was in SEED, and ignored Shinn's character in Destiny. If anyone was a cyborg character, it's Shinn.

Well, the thing is that Shinn was just an angry soldier type from the beginning, whilst Kira's cyborgish behavior in Destiny somehow seems off to his good-natured hero outlook from the first series. Not mentioning he waltzed through the whole series with practically one face expression during combat. Often he seems so emotionless. Like first time we see him in freedom after two years. One of the thing they fixed was his face expression in SE. LULz

Originally Posted by monstert

You don't get it, I have no problem with you preferring Shinn over Kira, that's your choice to make. But your comments that I quoted was unnecessary and out of place in a discussion about battle performance. And how is Kira a cyborg when he's pure flesh and blood? Seriously, a cyborg? I think you're confusing him with Waltfeld.

Think again what I meant by term "cyborg". It's his behavior and static character development in Destiny.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

LOL back at you.
You didn't read properly?? I said side unimportant characters. Since when Auel and Sting are important characters??

Well, our perception of what is "unimportant" here differs somehow, then. I'd say the three druggies were initially as important as Nicol, Dearka and Yzak, at least, we could not say they were grunts for sure which already raises their importance in the overall series classification. But of course they had to make room for Kira and co, so they killed them off quite early on in the series. Which is a shame, IMO.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

You are blinded by your fanboyism.
Kira lost the fight and I feel cheated are both two different things. I don't mind if Kira lost the fight with Shinn cheating by replacing parts. But it is a lousy way to win when it is clear that the sword suddenly got the beam to thrust Freedom, and after he thrusted it, the beam is BOOM! GONE!!

Well, ok... Kira fanboy Contrary to you, I felt pure delight to see static Yamato at last perish from hands of a more interesting character. But I felt that this "death" was not actually his last word. Seems I overestimated the creators. They took the most obvious and boring path, letting Kira live after whole this damage he did to the second season with him being all godly and plain but still getting too much screentime.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

Yes I do look at it differently. I think Shinn in Destiny is more cheap.
Kira didn't own everyone in Strike Freedom. He took Rey by surprise but why can't he own everyone in Destiny? Even Athrun is on his side, and there is no one like Rau to fight him.

Shinn in Destiny was pure awesomeness (visually... and his sword berserk is too cool :0). Whilst Kira just fell deeper into his "I am perfect scoutboy" role, which was just cheap. And yes, Kira did not own everyone in his new Freedom. If he did, he'd be better than the destroyers of galaxies in Dragon Ball Z, which I'd jsut could not stand.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

See. Your fanboyism is acting up again when you say Athrun defeating Shinn is to make up for his character.

Athrun was above Shinn in ZAFT once if you cannot remember. He knows Shinn better than anyone from his attitude and his fighting tactics. Clearly the "apprentice" still cannot match his "master".

Shinn really did not learn much from Athrun, luckily. Mr. Zala had already too much trouble with himself to even have enough guts to really be anybody's authority. To me, he only deserved respect for past sacrifices in the previous war. But for the most of the Destiny series he just kept contradicting what he and Kira concluded at the end of SEED. And then... poof. Suddenly Dullindal acts all evil and wants to kill Athrun so even such an undecided dumba** like Zala could understand that "something's wrong with the man". LOL again.

[Sander RX]

I don't mind if Kira lost the fight with Shinn cheating by replacing parts.

How is that cheating?Its a highly efficient defence tactic that can be done by the suits with dividing feature.HOW IS USING A SUIT TO ITS FULLEST CHEATING?
Oh and its Kira's incompetence for not trying to shoot down incoming Silhoutte packs and Flyers(but no one ever dares to interfere with Shin's docking for some wierd reason).

[NoOneKnowS]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, our perception of what is "unimportant" here differs somehow, then. I'd say the three druggies were initially as important as Nicol, Dearka and Yzak, at least, we could not say they were grunts for sure which already raises their importance in the overall series classification. But of course they had to make room for Kira and co, so they killed them off quite early on in the series. Which is a shame, IMO.

Man oh man. Did you just those said that those useless psychopathic EA trio in destiny are just as important as Yzak, and Dearka? (well; nicole is an exemption). Jesus; those druggies back at seed will kick those' trio's ass. Their not important characters. They're just characters that were acquainted/associated w/ the main characters through whatever relationship that is(oh wait; that only applies to that uncontrollable blondie i guess). Since not even one of them had some development as a character whatsoever.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Think again what I meant by term "cyborg". It's his behavior and static character development in Destiny.

Oh, I had a feeling about what you meant (it's not like I'm new to this forum). I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because frankly, you're misusing the term. Being a cyborg is not about behavior or character development. And if you'd actually look at Kira's character in Destiny, you'd see that he does show emotions and human qualities: worry, doubt, anger, relief, distrust, naiveness, acceptance, caring, blunt, humble, uncomfortable, resolved, surprised, etc.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Man oh man. Did you just those said that those useless psychopathic EA trio in destiny are just as important as Yzak, and Dearka? (well; nicole is an exemption). Jesus; those druggies back at seed will kick those' trio's ass. Their not important characters. They're just characters that were acquainted/associated w/ the main characters through whatever relationship that is(oh wait; that only applies to that uncontrollable blondie i guess). Since not even one of them had some development as a character whatsoever.

I said INITIALLY. But for sure they were more important than mere grunts. You say they weren't important characters. I think otherwise, so that's the whole point of this argument.

Originally Posted by monstert

Oh, I had a feeling about what you meant (it's not like I'm new to this forum). I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because frankly, you're misusing the term. Being a cyborg is not about behavior or character development. And if you'd actually look at Kira's character in Destiny, you'd see that he does show emotions and human qualities: worry, doubt, anger, relief, distrust, naiveness, acceptance, caring, blunt, humble, uncomfortable, resolved, surprised, etc.

Well, if you have a feeling about what I meant, you don't have to be that exact. It's not a semantic class at Oxford.

[tarachi]

Seriously, you are in a war and many people depends on you. You think Kira will show useless emotions? It will make his character weak or vulnerable to personal attacks. They limited Kira's attitude to show that Kira Seed is different on Kira Destiny.


About the topic:
Kira's MS are very limited compared to Shinn.
-The most important part is the rechargeable batteries.
-2 of the Strike forms can't fly.
-He can't change form until one time using the sky grasper
-He ISN't a trained soldier so He learns while fighting. (Which will be very difficult, Shinn learned how to fight Kira while he was aboard Minerva + with Rey's help.)

Just with that Kira's skills are better because he can learn, adjust and has no anger issues. (the last one is situational)

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, if you have a feeling about what I meant, you don't have to be that exact. It's not a semantic class at Oxford.

Feeling or not, it doesn't take a semantics class at Oxford to be accurate in what you say. Either way you look at it, Kira is not a cyborg and my point still stands that it was an uncalled-for statement on your part.

[Dark Shikra]

Originally Posted by Eagles

I'm sure it can be argued that Dearka/Yzak/Nicol aren't important characters, depending one what your definition of 'important' is.

Why are you depending on my definition to argue?
Are you sure??? If so I can say Auel and Sting are unimportant(which I really think so) and Dearka, Yzak and Nicol are important characters. What is left to argue?

Originally Posted by Eagles

lol at Shinn cheating. And you called Sir Dearka the fanboy? Calling it not a 'fair fight' is reasonable enough, but Shinn cheated in a war? What's Shinn supposed to do? Not use his Gundam to it's fullest potential?

Yes. He cheated and won using Impulse ability to replace parts. Just like how Kira "cheated" and destroyed Legend when Rey was off guard. I said it, it's ok. Maybe you should learn to read and understand what people are trying to mean.

Originally Posted by Eagles

If you mean the beam at the tip of the sword, I've seen a picture of a model sword with the all around the tip.

So?? In that scene, the sword doesn't have beam around its tip.

The sword is like this.
But before Shinn stabbed.. it's like this. Then after that, it EXTENDS. Finally the beam shrinks again.

So next you want to say he swap swords in between??

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, our perception of what is "unimportant" here differs somehow, then. I'd say the three druggies were initially as important as Nicol, Dearka and Yzak, at least, we could not say they were grunts for sure which already raises their importance in the overall series classification. But of course they had to make room for Kira and co, so they killed them off quite early on in the series. Which is a shame, IMO

.

Auel and Sting's importance in Destiny can only be on par with Shani, Clotho and Orga. How are they important? Plus as important as they are, Shinn only actually killed one of them: Auel. Sting... by the time it was Shinn's turn to destroy him he's already at the level of a "grunt". At least Stellar was much more of a problem when she piloted Destroy. Stellar is one of the main because she is considered Shinn's lover.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, ok... Kira fanboy Contrary to you, I felt pure delight to see static Yamato at last perish from hands of a more interesting character. But I felt that this "death" was not actually his last word. Seems I overestimated the creators. They took the most obvious and boring path, letting Kira live after whole this damage he did to the second season with him being all godly and plain but still getting too much screentime.

I admit I like Kira a lot more than Shinn. But as opposed to you who till now refuse to address about the "beam" situation and instead keep talking about how you weren't impressed by Kira so Shinn is better, I am a lesser fanboy.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn in Destiny was pure awesomeness (visually... and his sword berserk is too cool :0). Whilst Kira just fell deeper into his "I am perfect scoutboy" role, which was just cheap. And yes, Kira did not own everyone in his new Freedom. If he did, he'd be better than the destroyers of galaxies in Dragon Ball Z, which I'd jsut could not stand.

Ok. I don't agree though. Shinn sucks in my eyes.
I have a picture why Shinn fanboys doesn't like Kira in Destiny already, because he stole Shinn's light in Destiny. So Shinn's fans come and say Kira is cheap, how can he just own everyone like that? And then deep inside they think.. I want Shinn to be as cool as Kira too! It's just too bad Shinn couldn't sustain popularity and his fanbase.

Ya, ya. I am a Kira fanboy but I'm just following you.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn really did not learn much from Athrun, luckily. Mr. Zala had already too much trouble with himself to even have enough guts to really be anybody's authority. To me, he only deserved respect for past sacrifices in the previous war. But for the most of the Destiny series he just kept contradicting what he and Kira concluded at the end of SEED. And then... poof. Suddenly Dullindal acts all evil and wants to kill Athrun so even such an undecided dumba** like Zala could understand that "something's wrong with the man". LOL again.

What are you reading about?
You should read properly. I said Athrun WOULD KNOW Shinn's tactics, and please, if Shinn learnt even a little from Athrun, he will probably fend better than get all his attacks nullified when he was fighting Athrun.

By the way you're doing it again. You're stepping on Athrun to make Shinn look or sound "better". Maybe Athrun did contradict himself in a way, but in the process he felt that he was responsible to patch things up for ZAFT after the Junius 7 incident. He realized that his father's ideals, there are still people who wants to follow it so he decided to go back. Plus Durandal is there to "encourage" him.

Originally Posted by Sander RX

How is that cheating?Its a highly efficient defence tactic that can be done by the suits with dividing feature.HOW IS USING A SUIT TO ITS FULLEST CHEATING?
Oh and its Kira's incompetence for not trying to shoot down incoming Silhoutte packs and Flyers(but no one ever dares to interfere with Shin's docking for some wierd reason).

It's not? It's just like in examinations, when you get to see a person's answers, and you know that person is really smart and you decide to copy his answers just so that you could pass the exam with flying colours. But it is unfair too. It's the same with Shinn. He won the unfair fight. It's just that in Shinn's case it's war so his actions are justified even though he played unfair.

Incompetence??? No no. I think I remember Shinn distracting him with his Silhoutte. Shinn is competent in a way. He knows how to buy time. I think Impulse is more suitable for a pilot like Shinn. It's just the beam part I really got cheated with.

[Sander RX]

So?? In that scene, the sword doesn't have beam around its tip.

The sword is like this.
But before Shinn stabbed.. it's like this. Then after that, it EXTENDS. Finally the beam shrinks again.

So next you want to say he swap swords in between??

Thats just a sample of poor drawing.
If not,then its the same as beams changing so Kira can deflect them with the beamsaber,Destiny's ASS slashing a Destroy in 2 and Akatsuki's tiny mirrors deflecting freaking anti-matter.GSDs plot-induced bullsh*t.
Oh and it might not be Excalibur's sharpness that pierced the shield,but the kinetic force behind the stab...afterall,Shin did charge at him with full speed from quite a distance.

It's not? It's just like in examinations, when you get to see a person's answers, and you know that person is really smart and you decide to copy his answers just so that you could pass the exam with flying colours. But it is unfair too. It's the same with Shinn. He won the unfair fight. It's just that in Shinn's case it's war so his actions are justified even though he played unfair.

Both dividing and replacing are inside Impulse's capabilities. Call Shin using Uso Evin-like tactics cheating all you want.
Well,we may call replacing cheating since Flyers and Silhouttes are sent from Minerva,but then for example mere essence of Gundam X using Sattelite Cannon(lets forget about its tremendous firepower and think of it as a mere beamgun for a second) would be cheating since its powered by some station Moon.Even so,its still a feature of his unit.You could call any more or less haxxed Gundam ability a cheating at this point.
As for dividing,its out of the question.

Spoiler for My biased opinion:

In Destiny,Kira shows incompetence unfitting himself from the first season.He is overreliant on his units capabilities and plot-protection,a complete and utter joke in comparison with his old self.I genuinely dont get people who claim Kra to be better in GSD.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sander RX

Spoiler for My biased opinion:

In Destiny,Kira shows incompetence unfitting himself from the first season.He is overreliant on his units capabilities and plot-protection,a complete and utter joke in comparison with his old self.I genuinely dont get people who claim Kra to be better in GSD.

But Kira has always relied on his units' capabilities, even in GS.

[Sir Dearka]

Calm down, people. I am a Shinn faboy, I admit. But I am actually a pre-Destiny Kira fanboy, too. Akind to Sander RX, I felt repulsed with what they did to Kira in the second season. That's all.

Dark Shikra - whatever you say, you won't really convince me that Sting was just a grunt or even "grunt level". He was NOT a grunt. It's not just a coincidence that he was chosen to be a Gundam pilot.

And LOL, man, I never wished Shinn was like Kira. What they did to Yamato in Destiny utterly disappointed me and I'd not wish Shinn to go down similar path.

Kira's "major characters" killing count in SEED:

Nicol
Rau Le Creuset

Kira's count of major "defeated but spared or surviving characters":

Yzak
Waltfeldt

END.

Shinn's "major characters" killing count in Destiny:

Auel
Sting

Shinn's count of major characters "defeated but spared or surviving"

Stellar
Kira
Athrun

END.

Looking at Shinn's achievements plus the countless destroyed grunts toll one could not think that it is anything but amazing.

--

monstert - I'll be exact, then... the term "cyborg" was used by me in reference to Kira's poor character development and his image of "perfect-knight-ultimate-combat-machine-god".

[Aceywacey]

Still on this???

Shinn sucks, the end.

Arthrun smashed him to bits in a fair fight. Therefore Arthrun > Shinn

Shin only won his fights against important characters with those characters in an overwhelming situation

Arthrun (in a stupid grunt zaku, and with Meyrin, while he VSed both Rey and Shinn in super suits)

Stellar - It was Kira that actually beat and killed her (yep, rack that kill for Kira plz). Poor Shinn, Kira smashed his love interest

Kira - We've already gone over this. Also those beam swords do not have capability to have a beam on the tip. The model is just a model, it isn't canon. Where would the beam on the tip be generated? There isn't one on the tip.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Still on this???

Shinn sucks, the end.

Buahaha

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Arthrun smashed him to bits in a fair fight. Therefore Arthrun > Shinn

Shinn only won his fights against important characters with those characters in an overwhelming situation

Arthrun (in a stupid grunt zaku, and with Meyrin, while he VSed both Rey and Shinn in super suits)

Well, we haven't seen Shinn performing in grunt unit. He just might surprise us if he is given a chance in the movie :]
And Athrun did own Shinn. But as a character he was far more irritating to me with his indecisiveness and vs. Sting duels that could go on forever

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Stellar - It was Kira that actually beat and killed her (yep, rack that kill for Kira plz). Poor Shinn, Kira smashed his love interest

Stella was defeated by Shinn. He conquered her heart :P

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Kira - We've already gone over this. Also those beam swords do not have capability to have a beam on the tip. The model is just a model, it isn't canon. Where would the beam on the tip be generated? There isn't one on the tip.

Magic, as everything in Destiny, including Kira's and Mwu's miraculous revivals