2010-05-17, 18:27 | Link #81 | |
Confederate
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the Netherlands
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To avoid misunderstandings, it's not my intention to glorify Usui nor do I disagree with all of the points you brought forward about his so-called "uglier traits". But my motivation to reply in this discussion (where Sol Falling already brought many points forward in Usui's favor) is the fact that I really disagree with your qualification of Usui being a "jerk". Since Misaki caught his eye/interest/heart Usui has shown a genuine dedication to only her. He didn't care for other girls before Misaki that's true, but the way he treats (cares for/helps/is attracted to and loves) Misaki he doesn't with any other girl. So this "recurring sexual harrasment of Misaki" by Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity. Usui never did something Misaki truly disliked. She always got flustered/blushed and reacted in a "typical tsundere" way. They do have a "dynamic" relationship (storywise established after the rooftop scene in ep1) after which Usui can clearly permit himself ("to continue and expand") this kind of behaviour ("sexual harrasment", teasing&messing with Misaki) without getting more than a "tsundere" (attempt to a) slap/kick and it looks like he doesn't mind that "minor" consequence one bit. He is rather (clearly) amused by it to provoke such reaction from Misaki as long as she is just flustered or a "little" angry. I mean Misaki is (at core) a "man-hating" high school girl and Usui was kinda the symbol of her "man-hatred" (Usui was introduced as the guy who makes girls cry after relentlessly rejecting them). She also is by no means a "beloved lab rat in his laboratory" where he likes to watch her struggle. If that was the case than Usui would enjoy seeing Misaki struggle because of his plotted schemes. And if he wanted to their school is the "ultimate playground", Misaki one of the finest "test subjects" and Usui certainly has the brains for it (but fortunately not the charateristics to do it). He does however like to observe Misaki struggling/overcome the burdens she herself put on her shoulders and (preferably) getting out of that mess by herself. And he only steps in whenever she (really) needs his help (she can't manage to do it by herself). I'd like to give you some examples from the anime so far to emphasize my point of Usui not being a "jerk" towards Misaki at all but rather the opposite. Episode two has (a minor) one where Misaki locked down the bellydancing guy who was scaring girls. The guys plotted to "attack" Misaki all at once to get the keys from her as a last resort to free their "comrade", because Usui was at first not interested at all in helping them out (agreeing with Misaki's punishment) but changed his mind very quick when he heared what they wanted to do with Misaki(..) And the latest episode has maybe one of the better examples. When Usui saw how uncomfortable Misaki really was after his (genuine) confession/kiss he even went so far to kiss that guy(..) from the stundent council, all this knowing how Misaki would revert back to her normal self, because seeing Misaki like that made him realise that he went a couple of steps to quick (apparently). And we saw him when he left the classroom (and Misaki was clearly reverted to her old self) in "a classic anime depiction". A character whose eyes are covered in the shadows of his hair doesn't mean he's happy, but rather the sheer opposite. That's why I disagree with you calling Usui a "jerk", because besides the fact that he is able to deduct Misaki's behaviour he is willing to go so far for the girl he obviously likes to even resetting his genuine confession by kissing a guy (..) while he is 100% straight (since/fortunately we've never seen Usui in the manga cross-dressing or having some other yaoi-fetishes). Not to mention what he did for Misaki all along the manga without any other personal gain, except for the fact that he got Misaki's attention this way and her (as a "proud"/self-proclaimed man-hating woman) even opening her heart to him to her own confusion. Last edited by kanon78; 2010-05-18 at 01:04. |
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2010-05-17, 22:46 | Link #82 | |||||||||
Yami no Ou
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Why are you asking me ridiculous questions, particularly ones I've already answered? Misaki's outbursts, 90% of them at least, are from EMBARRASSMENT. I could cite a surplus of empirical evidence to support this, but this is an anime discussion topic. Quite frankly, your current stance reads like the opinion of an anime only watcher if anything. Quote:
But this is an anime discussion topic, so I'll leave it at that. Quote:
Apparently being "sexually harassed" by Usui doesn't mean much to Misaki, even in the infancy stages of their relationship. You act like YOU'RE the one who was harassed, and you're pushing YOUR values onto Misaki's character, which I think we've established you've a poor understanding of her ACTUAL values. Quote:
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Jesus, I repeat, have you REALLY read the manga? It's in Misaki's nature to be dishonest when she's embarrassed and resort to "violence" when she can't say anything. Quote:
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In the best interests of our anime only watchers, I'll simply say "No." Quote:
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The anime failed in this episode. Deal with it. Sol's whining is actually justified this week. Your counter-arguments aren't nearly as sound this week. Let it go and we'll see how next week goes. Respond if you like, but for me to continue would risk manga spoilers, so I'm done for now. |
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2010-05-17, 23:12 | Link #84 |
Yami no Ou
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Indeed, which is why I've made the proper choice to stay quiet since these little spats started, but like Mentar, there were "too many misleading statements here that I needed to comfort".
I won't do it again, I promise. And it's not like I haven't tried to spark discussion in the manga topic, but it never lasts for more than a day. If Mentar wants to silence all the doubts I've expressed thus far, perhaps a few strings can be pulled for a more consistent, faster group of people to translate the wonderful manga ^_^ |
2010-05-18, 02:09 | Link #85 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me." Or are you one of those guys who believe in the "When a woman says no, she actually means yes" meme? Please don't tell me you are. Quote:
What went through her head against the Miyabigaoka offer? She wanted to protect the girls against the boys and felt she would desert them if she accepted. Yet, you think that Misaki doesn't mind when Usui does it to her? Quote:
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2010-05-18, 02:47 | Link #86 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Just to put this question to rest: Yes. Multiple times. Sometimes even in the JP original where I had doubts about the scanlations.
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"Don't go overboardwith it! How many more troubles do you want to give me before you're satisfied? Enough! To be teased by Usui... I hate that the most!". She's yelling this at Usui with a teared-blushed face, and rushes away from him afterwards. Yup, I'm feeling the love already. She enjoys all this, definitely. She's only a little bit shy. *shakes head in amazement* Quote:
And that you accuse ME not to understand Misaki's actual values is hilarious I'll give you a hint about her values: She's a man-hater on a mission to protect the girls in Seika High from the boys. Not a "please come on to me, I'm a shy tsundere". Quote:
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In my opinion, she explicitly does NOT like it. Misaki's complaints about hating to be teased, messed up and confused by Usui's attacks are genuine. She knows and realizes that his intentions aren't bad, and she realizes that he IS helpful to her. But she hates how she can't find peace of mind around him, because of him. She'd much rather have him behave normally. And the story of KWMS on _her_ half is the character development in two directions: Usui's of learning to gradually opening up and treating Misaki more gently and considerately, and Misaki's of developing trust in Usui, learning about him and overcoming her issues with him, undoing the lockdown she placed on her feelings for him. Quote:
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2010-05-18, 03:08 | Link #87 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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C'mon guy. This is the third person now. You're still seriously going on with this 'Usui is a jerk' thing?
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Misaki doesn't believe (well, generally/initially) that she needs to be 'protected'. That's why no, she doesn't mind Usui's actions towards her (also why their relationship moves so slowly). Quote:
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2010-05-18, 04:45 | Link #88 | ||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Besides, wasn't you the one who started this argument by claiming that no reader should NOT like Usui, and that the anime failed because viewers didn't like him all that much? Quote:
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"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me." (Anime) So you say she's lying? I don't think so. Quote:
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How people react to KWMS depends on alot of things, particularly on your life experiences. One of my friends I'm very close with is a particularly pretty young woman who had to struggle alot with unwelcome attention and a violent marriage, so I might be more sensitized to aggressive behavior and sexual harassment than the average male reader. She's an avid fan of Misaki, and she strongly sympathizes with her struggles (and admires her spunky resistance). From her point of view, she's enjoying how Misaki gradually CHANGES Usui. YOUR point of view is blatant unreflected Usui fanboyism. You belittle Misaki's struggling as mere dishonesty and unability to express her love-born embarrassment by other means than yelling. "She likes it, after all". So you reduce the story development to Hero Usui working hard (all for Misaki's sake, of course) to overcome her hatred of men. But this is ONE perspective only. What _I_ like about this show is that the setup is asymmetrical. I try to see the point of view of BOTH characters. There's a mutual attraction between them which is undeniable. But simply denying Misaki's ordeal and her fundamental problems with Usui means neglecting half of the show. |
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2010-05-18, 05:23 | Link #89 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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We can agree that his pheromone moments cause turmoil within Misaki, right? And I can assure you that doing what Usui did in anime episode 7 can easily get people thrown out of school in Asia. But yes, Usui _usually_ stops inches before the red line. He doesn't need to go further. Quote:
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I guess that our ideas of what a "perfect lover" is differ very much. Perfect lovers don't consciously cause discomfort to the loved ones without some very good reason. Usui unsettles Misaki on purpose for his own enjoyment only. If his goal was to get together with Misaki (which it explicitly isn't), there would be lots of ways to do that WITHOUT messing with her. Quote:
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(Without words) |
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2010-05-18, 05:24 | Link #90 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Asia Pacific
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Having read the manga as well, I actually feel that this is a rather decent adaptation, even if the anime takes liberty with its source, i.e. arrangement of events and 'skipping' around of the source material. I've long ago learnt not to be too nit-picky with manga to anime adaptations, because if I do, I will always undoubtedly end up disappointed. As long as the core elements still remain in the adaptation, then I won't have too many complaints. (However I won't say the same for some obvious massively-bungled adaptations that bear no resemblance to their original counterpart!)
Having said that, the anime adaptation has its own merits. I still enjoy what the anime has to offer, though it may not completely be the same as the manga. I'm not trying to stir up any flames (haha); this is just my personal opinion. One more thing, just as a comparison's sake: I think one recent shoujo adaptation that would have benefited from a better anime arrangement would have been Kimi ni Todoke - even though it was almost exactly panel-by-panel a faithful adaptation from the manga, the anime was excruciating slow, in spite of the beautiful storyline. |
2010-05-18, 12:08 | Link #91 | ||
Confederate
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the Netherlands
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Let me first start by saying that I sincerely apologize to everyone who visits this KWMS anime thread and "despises" being confronted with "manga spoilers". I'll try to keep the manga spoilers to a bare minimum and suggest to just skim this post if you can't stand spoilers in general. I do find the discussion with Mentar (Sol Falling and LordDemon) too interesting to just let it go. And I also believe that the content of the discussion (especially after "the way" episode 7 ended) belongs in the anime thread and not necessarily only in the manga thread. So I think that after episode 7 anime-only viewers (if they feel like it) can also give their point of view without the need of manga spoilers/knowledge.
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If viewed "sec" like that with this manga snapshot/scene as an excellent reference it looks a lot (to say the least) like sexual harrasment. But with your manga knowledge of KWMS and even just the string of "events" in the anime leading to that scene it's, like someone posted before in this thread, Usui bringing Misaki down to earth from her trip to the clouds after the ladies only cosplay event in the maid cafe. She was (seriously) "delusional" thinking how nice it was cosplaying as a boy that she even thought for a second that "she really was a guy" with all that kind of special/new kind of attention she got from the customer girls at the maid cafe. All Usui did was (and we as manga readers and anime-only viewers know this) bring Misaki "back to earth". Showing her at that moment that she was having illusions and she is just a girl. The guy "only pinned her down" to make this point across and he did not touch, fondle or grope her. Misaki knew (and so did manga readers and anime-only viewers to my humble opinion) during that brief moment of being "pinned down" that she was absolutely in no danger whatsoever and she could literally break free any moment she wanted to by her own force and by Usui's consent. I think she was being "showed" as "cowering"/"frightened" not so much of the implicated sexual harassment, but because she was still having issues with who Usui really is (questioning what does he mean to her?) in the "whirlpool" of thoughts based on his recent confession/kiss/jump of the roof to protect her secret/relaxed state of mind and afterwards the "Yukimura-reset". This confused Misaki that much combined with the fact that he was right in bringing her down to earth and "forcefully" pulling her out of her nice delusions pisses Misaki that much off that she is indeed much angrier at him than her usual " I hate you/tsundere reaction". Don't forget that in this stage Misaki is still somewhat competitve (like hikari "vs" kei mindset from SA) and thus reluctant to admit Usui is right when it means she is "in the wrong". Quote:
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I mean the guy helps her out only/whenever she needs it. Be it at school, against harassment ("idiot three", "rich kids" and more like you see in the manga) from others towards Misaki or helping out part-time at the maid cafe in a way he doesn't really interfere with Misaki. in the He always leaves her free to do and decide whatever she wants but he just watches over her from the background. He never imposed his views on her but is rather a supporting character (it's only because others want to notice him, he never actually tries to steal the spotlight intentionally when he is with Misaki). Yeah he does tease her/"messes around with her" but it is in a playful dynamic way and whenever he sees that Misaki is more angry/hurt than her usual "I hate you/tsundere reaction" to his antics you see that he genuinely cares about it/is upset. And like I said before Misaki is the only girl that Usui treats like that. He doesn't even pay attention to other girls (who'd "love" to be treated like that by him). Remember the scene when he met those two girls on the street at night when he was worrying over Misaki ("assault in the maid cafe" episode). That's why I find it "hard to understand"/see how Usui is a jerk in your opinion, even when he acts "seemingly jerkish" it always is in the benefit for Misaki. As anime-only viewers and manga readers we see and know it a lot sooner than Misaki gradually realizes after some time in the manga like you said yourself in one of your comments on the previous page. I sincerely hope that you don't need me to seriously answer this question...? Last edited by kanon78; 2010-05-18 at 12:45. |
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2010-05-18, 12:54 | Link #92 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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As the screenshot illustrates, she says NO. She says STOP IT. She says I HATE IT. And yet, you insisted that Usui "Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity". Which this screenshot disproves. Unless you claim that Misaki is lying. There is no alternative. Pick your poison. Quote:
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Seriously, I'd want you to stop treating Misaki as an idiot who doesn't really mean what she says when she wants Usui to cut it out. And to recognize that Usui isn't the flawless glowing-light being that you guys want to describe him. Some balance would be very much appreciated. |
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2010-05-18, 14:02 | Link #93 | |||||
Confederate
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the Netherlands
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Ofcourse if the girl tells you to stop you do so. But can you give me one example where Usui forcefully pursued his "enjoyement" against Misaki's consent? Since it seems I have a case of Alzheimer light maybe you can refresh my mind? Quote:
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2010-05-18, 17:24 | Link #94 |
Yami no Ou
Join Date: Dec 2003
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It kills me that the manga I anticipate more than any other series has such agonizing waits in between new chapter releases. My Japanese isn't quite sophisticated enough to read the raws smoothly.
Breathing life into this topic and hoping for somebody or something to breath life into Potato Otaku. |
2010-05-18, 23:55 | Link #96 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Skipped/glazed over some responses for space and to avoid discussing future manga chapters.
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See below for the indictment thing. Quote:
Your friend's experience with violent marriage is regrettable. However, violent or aggressive is hardly Usui. You know full well that as for their relationship, Usui would never push Misaki into anything. Hell, this is the entire point of the Yukimura kiss from ch. 5/ep. 7, which establishes early on just how considerate Usui is of Misaki's comfort and readiness. Yes, Misaki might change Usui, but it's not in making him less of a (so-called) jerk to women--unless you want to count becoming interested in one in the first place. Telling me I'm 'neglecting' half of the story simply because I don't buy into your projections of Misaki's suffering is highly disingenuous. What 'fundamental problems' are you talking about? Show me this supposed development. Misaki's 'ordeal' is in how she slowly comes to learn what it means to be in love, to trust and depend on someone, and to be a woman. To these ends, all the 'struggle' and 'effort' she puts in is something positive, heartwarming even (see the chapters where she actually mentions it), as something which signifies the growth in knowledge and experience of her self as a person. Misaki and Usui's bickering is shown as a good thing, all the way through to the latest chapter of the manga. You're saying Usui is supposed to develop away from it? From the obvious intentions of this story: not. likely. Isn't this why it's better placed at the very start of the series? Nonetheless though, understandably I think kisses can have different degrees of value to different people. Particularly as for Usui and Misaki themselves, I don't think there was any element of force percieved in that incident. For both Usui and Misaki, their motivations/reactions would only be extensions of their feelings on the confession itself. Quote:
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2010-05-19, 02:48 | Link #97 |
One PUNCH!
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2005
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After reading this back and forth about Usui, I can only gleam that he's a Jerk with a Heart of Gold (emphasis on the Jerk part AT THIS MOMENT IN THE ANIME), but I still want to know what makes him tick...
EDIT: Reading about how the various manga chapters should fit into the anime somehow reminds me of the theme of the first episode of "Seitokai no Ichizon" for some reason... Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-05-19 at 02:58. |
2010-05-19, 03:31 | Link #98 | ||||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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To comply with xris, I'll stick to the anime, and only mention comparisons to the manga for those parts which have already been handled in the anime version.
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The way I see it, the point of this aftermath page is to point out that unlike the other tiffs before where Misaki exploded, but quickly returned to normal afterwards, she couldn't shake off this one so easily. I see no indication which would support your theory that she regrets her outburst. Throughout the entire show, Misaki ALWAYS apologized when she felt in the wrong. And it is also contradicted by the anime panel in which she straightens up. This "get a grip on yourself" kind of frame indicates that she considers this incident closed and that she tries to carry on. However, she's still shaken. Quote:
You remind me of the BP CEO. "Really, it's no big deal. Honest." Quote:
Stop hiding behind your make-believe "I know what the author really meant" fig leaf, which is the big brother of your "Yes, Misaki says/does something different, but she doesn't really mean it" excuse. Have the intellectual honesty to start with "In my opinion", then it's all fine. Quote:
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Yes, he's no violent husband type. I listed this to indicate that what YOU consider okay can be considered very negatively by people with other histories. Quote:
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I can only repeat what I already said to kanon78: Stop treating Misaki like an idiot who doesn't mean what she says. At the time being, she clearly feels bothered by Usui's "attention" when there's no immediate crisis to deal with (then, she explicitly thanks him where it's warranted). For Misaki, he's a sexual harassment alien jerk by now. And she makes perfectly clear in the few moments where Usui is NOT stalking her (e.g. in the stalker episode ep5 timecode 12:55) that she delights in the peace and quiet without him, where your interpretation postulates that she'd prefer him to be around and keep doing his attacks. This is the storyline from HER point of view, and I maintain that you lose significant aspects of the character development if you ignore her Usui-induced turmoil by reducing it to mere tsundere dishonesty. It's not. At the very least, not yet. Misaki's irritation at Usui's omnipresence is VERY real, and it's a major milestone in the story progression when she realizes that this has changed, and needs to grapple with the implications of this revelation. Quote:
Do you even BELIEVE this nonsense you write? What she did was yelling "What the hell are you saying, you pervert?!" and trying to punish him by kicking him. His pin-against-the-wall demand of having her strip in the middle of a school corridor was so totally outrageous that she wouldn't merely ignore it or merely push him away this time. What "challenge"? For what? This time she is so pissed that she wants to nail him one into the kisser. Simple as that. Yare yare. Quote:
While I wouldn't go so far to deny that Usui might also have the intention you listed, I would consider it secondary at best. What Usui explicitly DOES stress to others - time and time again - is that Misaki is HIS maid. It is HIS privilege to enjoy her this way (so he threatens the trio not to rat on Misaki). HE is the one who has the right to follow Misaki on her path, seeing her struggle and helping her in times of hardships. He does this not because he wants to be with Misaki in terms of becoming a couple, but because he ENJOYS the way things are. In my opinion, _this_ is why he would easily "undo" the kiss with another camouflage kiss with Yukimura. He saw that Misaki couldn't handle it, and that he couldn't spend time with her like before. All this makes Usui more of a predator (not lover) who is fairly troublesome for Misaki to deal with, but who at the same time can be very handy to have around in times of trouble. My personal ideal of a perfect lover is quite different. Let's leave it at that. Quote:
You: You are taking things much too far if you honestly believe Misaki would rather have him 'behave normally'--if Usui didn't provoke Misaki to chase him, then why would she ever keep running after him? Me: She doesn't. Not in the early chapters. You: Dude, just go and read the first chapter again. [...] I'm not sure where our misunderstanding is coming from here (there must be one), but Misaki does NOT "keep running after Usui". Up to now, contact between those two has been 99% Usui-induced. In ep1, Misaki sought him out to _thank_ him. It's Usui who chases Misaki, not vice versa. Like in the anime scene I mentioned in which Misaki happily rejoices that Usui is NOT around in the cafe. Is this really something you want to contest?! |
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