[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Secondly, how can it be more simplistic than guy-who-says-he's-Madara = Madara? That's as dumbed down as it gets.

Which is why I started this thread...

I do hope that Tobi is more complex than just Madara (though I do find Obito's potential connection a little...boring, for various reasons I've already discussed ad nauseum in the past (I don't mind the Zetsu speculation, in fact I consider it very interesting (which is why I added the Zetsu's Love Child to the poll)), but I am not holding out for anything too shocking (here's hoping we all will be pleasantly surprised).

And, now that Tobi/Madara's plan is about to start, we just might get a chance to really see his face (additionally, Sasuke's eye change (potentially eliminating the failsafe), could very well be the key to Tobi/Madara's unmasking)...unless Kishimoto wants to string this out another 100+ chapters, dropping hints here and there about various possibilities until we are foaming at the mouth over debating speculation...but here's hoping that doesn't happen...

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

QUESTION TO ALL: Who was in Kabuto's coffin?

That's the secondary point of this thread. In creating speculation concerning Tobi, we might then be able to infer who is in the coffin.

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

hehe... tobi's identity debate really is fun eh??

It is...I just wish there were more people willing to talk about Tobi being someone other than Obito or Madara...(I'm still waiting for some Kagami Uchiha theories, but I might be hoping for too much).

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

but Im rooting for Hiking_Bear hehe....

By all means. I may not agree with the evidence Hiking_Bear puts forth, but that doesn't mean that I find it uninteresting. I only wish he or she wasn't so serious about the issue (I guess Hiking feels a passion for the theory, which is commendable...).

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

Which is why I started this thread...

I do hope that Tobi is more complex than just Madara (though I do find Obito's potential connection a little...boring, for various reasons I've already discussed ad nauseum in the past (I don't mind the Zetsu speculation, in fact I consider it very interesting (which is why I added the Zetsu's Love Child to the poll)), but I am not holding out for anything too shocking (here's hoping we all will be pleasantly surprised).

And, now that Tobi/Madara's plan is about to start, we just might get a chance to really see his face (additionally, Sasuke's eye change (potentially eliminating the failsafe), could very well be the key to Tobi/Madara's unmasking)...unless Kishimoto wants to string this out another 100+ chapters, dropping hints here and there about various possibilities until we are foaming at the mouth over debating speculation...but here's hoping that doesn't happen...



That's the secondary point of this thread. In creating speculation concerning Tobi, we might then be able to infer who is in the coffin.



It is...I just wish there were more people willing to talk about Tobi being someone other than Obito or Madara...(I'm still waiting for some Kagami Uchiha theories, but I might be hoping for too much).



By all means. I may not agree with the evidence Hiking_Bear puts forth, but that doesn't mean that I find it uninteresting. I only wish he or she wasn't so serious about the issue (I guess Hiking feels a passion for the theory, which is commendable...).

hehehe...funny. at the very least kagami and danzo are noticeably absent from page 7 middle panel...but whats his motivation? secretly wanting to be hokage and feeling snubbed at the Second's decision...also on a bit of a side note...I am really curious to know how this hokage selection thing works. at present, 3 of 5 hokages are blood related, but i just cant get past the feeling that all 5 are somehow family...

[Gin]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

QUESTION TO ALL: Who was in Kabuto's coffin?

It was obviously Kabuto's own body in the coffin, making him essentially immortal.

[dachy]

What i think will determine the end to this everlasting debate is whether or not we really know who is pulling the strings, but that being said is another argument of its own. Arguments from both sides hold both sense and room for questioning. After going through this thread i have come to realize this, most arguments here are based on speculations backed up by less than feeble evidence, for example; the spelling of a name, Possible resurrections, or survival. Even though there solid published evidence against it. No one minds the speculation once and awhile, to my own experience it fuel the very sense of questioning the once sought inevitable. But I notice a recurring pattern in all posts that acknowledge his or her bias. Criticize me if you may, but we are looking into this debate in a single sided way. Although i don't have much to offer to the discussion and i do have my own biased theories, but for the better of coming to conclusion we should see this argument, this mystery not from one way (one theory) based on what we think. Although, for a grander scheme Kishi leaves room for speculation and confusion in order for us to develop a sense that there is something greater than a man behind a mask.
To us he is what he says but more than that. We know Tobi as a once immature character and a serious figure as well. Split personality? Zetsu? purely coincidental? He claims to be Madara and to the extent of knowledge we have he might as well be, but what purpose does Madara have, When itachi Fulfilled his revenge against his clan. For all we know there is a darker more sinister plot that goes deeper than revenge. Further theories of Obito and Izuan an other go beyond speculation. For the time being we should be focusing on what is more likely rather than what might be a slight coincidence that better our self understandings.
But don't take me the wrong way i love to read what you have to share and please continue to do so. But i would like to see more argument that hold more possible value than simple speculations.

This post is purely a cross-examination of all sides and should not be misunderstood as possible theories being put forward. I am only putting my opinion in to possibly better the theories that are currently being argued.

[james0246]

Please do not condemn us for our propensity toward speculation. While it is true that little actual evidence exists to deny Tobi as Madara, the supposed mystery of the mask is enough to whet our appetites for something more. More meaningful. More Powerful. So, we speculate, trying to come up with theories (that sometimes verge on fanfiction), trying to create something of greater interest than the simple explanation(s) given to us. And while we may go overboard on occasion, it is mostly in good humour, and nothing is really lost from the encounter (though sometimes nothing is gained)...

j/k

Sorry, I'm just joshing with you . You are correct, and speculation without real facts has become the basis for much of the discussion concerning Tobi. And while it is understandable as to why this has occurred (we want to know for sure, and we want to know now!), it can get to be a bit too much (especially when entire pages are filled with walls of text brought to you by ego-maniacs (I'm looking at you Gin)).

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

Please do not condemn us for our propensity toward speculation. While it is true that little actual evidence exists to deny Tobi as Madara, the supposed mystery of the mask is enough to whet our appetites for something more. More meaningful. More Powerful. So, we speculate, trying to come up with theories (that sometimes verge on fanfiction), trying to create something of greater interest than the simple explanation(s) given to us. And while we may go overboard on occasion, it is mostly in good humour, and nothing is really lost from the encounter (though sometimes nothing is gained)...

j/k

Sorry, I'm just joshing with you . You are correct, and speculation without real facts has become the basis for much of the discussion concerning Tobi. And while it is understandable as to why this has occurred (we want to know for sure, and we want to know now!), it can get to be a bit too much (especially when entire pages are filled with walls of text brought to you by ego-maniacs (I'm looking at you Gin)).

@dachy...not being critical, I just dont understand what the problem is the various speculations and theories. its not as if Tobi's mask is off and people are arguing who it should have been (which is much closer to fanfiction in my opinion)...as long as people are not seriously convinced Tobi is Omega Shenron, there should be a willingness to entertain each others thoughts as fellow fans of the series. And what exactly is feeble evidence? naruto doesnt share minatos surname or his personality. for some time the only real similarity was hair color, that and the assumption that the fourth hokage wouldnt seal a demon in a random child...my point, this stuff is fun...even when it gets to be too much. i suppose the logic could be tightened up here and there, but this istn the development of a cure for something so...eh

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

By all means. I may not agree with the evidence Hiking_Bear puts forth, but that doesn't mean that I find it uninteresting. I only wish he or she wasn't so serious about the issue (I guess Hiking feels a passion for the theory, which is commendable...).

What I wish is that you would respect peoples theories. I think it's possible to have constructive debate about Tobi's identity, but not when your responses are being mocking and sarcastic. It's almost as if you created this thread, not to discuss the identity of Tobi, but to remove all of the Tobi=Obito and other theories from the weekly chapter threads and then come here to mock them all at once.

Originally Posted by dachy

After going through this thread i have come to realize this, most arguments here are based on speculations backed up by less than feeble evidence, for example; the spelling of a name, Possible resurrections, or survival.

The evidence we have so far strongly suggests a possible resurrection or survival. To eliminate this possibility would be to remove both Madara and Obito from suspicion.

Even though there solid published evidence against it.

All of the evidence we have is published evidence (i.e. the manga is published). Whether certain evidence is 'solid' or not is a matter of debate.

But don't take me the wrong way i love to read what you have to share and please continue to do so. But i would like to see more argument that hold more possible value than simple speculations.

We can only base our conclusions on the evidence we have. But there is ample evidence in the manga. We keep learning more about Tobi's physical body. He's missing body parts. What does that tell you?

[yakumo-chan]

Hiking_Bear is right, we should respect each others theories since this is a "Who is Tobi" thread not a "Tobi is not Obito" thread

But I do think that tobi is not obito since Minato should have felt him when they fight.... In my Opinion though....

[TheCoconutChef]

That's the secondary point of this thread. In creating speculation concerning Tobi, we might then be able to infer who is in the coffin.

Who's in the coffin will tell us who Tobi is. Who's in the Coffin isn't seconday to all of this because whatever your theory about this is, it has to take into account the fact that there's a body in that coffin that could, ultimatly, screw very very badly with Tobi's plan (he got scared enough to A. try to kill Kabuto over it B. Call him a madman C. Agree to give sasuke to him).

If you're to say that Tobi is Zetsu, then whoever is in the coffin has to fit that.

As for Izuna being dead, we only see it in flashback and as far as I'm concerned that's fairly unreliable.

I base my theory on some assumption:

a) He is an Uchiha

b) He is at least as strong as Madara

c) He's a character that has been introduced before

d) His plan fits his motive which fits his backstory

e) He's old

f) There's a body in a coffin that can screw his plan up

Obito doesn't fit because of e), b), d) and maybe f). Zetsu doesn't fit because of d), a) and maybe e) and f).

The thing that screws with me the most is, if Tobi isn't Madara, why does he keep his identity secret? Is it for the shadow notoriety?

If you assume it's not an Uchiha then I like the Bijuu theory ("I'm the master of the world").

[james0246]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

Who's in the coffin will tell us who Tobi is.

That's not necessarily true. If Rikudou-Sennin is in the coffin, then it really doesn't matter who Tobi is, they would be afraid. Additionally, it could be an unknown character (in which case there is no way to speculate on the matter) or a previously known character that has a bit of information that we do not know (which we also can't really speculate on). So, one set of information need not follow the other, or, more precisely, knowing "Whose in the Box?" need not mean that we know "Who is Tobi?"

For example: Tobi is actually Izuna, and the person in the box is Izuna's dead wife, and she knows that Izuna killed Madara and pretended to be his brother until he was driven out of Konoha. In such a scenario, Tobi's plans would be screwed with to a great degree, and the person being summoned would not have to be uber-powerful. (Note, I am not saying I in any way agree with such a theory (though I do like the idea of Izuna as Tobi, though I do have a problem with the whole "supposed to be dead" thing), I'm just emphasizing how knowing "Who is in the box?" does not automatically lead to "Who is Tobi?".)

Consequently, I listed "Who's in the Box?" as being a secondary question in a "Who is Tobi?" thread, though I fully acknowledge that they will undoubtedly be extremely connected.

That being said, I do agree with your check-list (I've even used similar ones in the past (nowhere near as well-thought out as yours though), and in the instance you provided, the thread question is answered.

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

If you assume it's not an Uchiha then I like the Bijuu theory ("I'm the master of the world").

Do you mean an actual Bijuu was summoned? Or do you mean the Jyuubi's mind was summoned?

That being said, one of my favourite theories is that the Jyuubi is secretly leading everything. Sadly, there's no real evidence to support this theory...

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's not necessarily true. If Rikudou-Sennin is in the coffin, then it really doesn't matter who Tobi is, they would be afraid. Additionally, it could be an unknown character (in which case there is no way to speculate on the matter) or a previously known character that has a bit of information that we do not know (which we also can't really speculate on). So, one set of information need not follow the other, or, more precisely, knowing "Whose in the Box?" need not mean that we know "Who is Tobi?"

For example: Tobi is actually Izuna, and the person in the box is Izuna's dead wife, and she knows that Izuna killed Madara and pretended to be his brother until he was driven out of Konoha. In such a scenario, Tobi's plans would be screwed with to a great degree, and the person being summoned would not have to be uber-powerful. (Note, I am not saying I in any way agree with such a theory (though I do like the idea of Izuna as Tobi, though I do have a problem with the whole "supposed to be dead" thing), I'm just emphasizing how knowing "Who is in the box?" does not automatically lead to "Who is Tobi?".)

Consequently, I listed "Who's in the Box?" as being a secondary question in a "Who is Tobi?" thread, though I fully acknowledge that they will undoubtedly be extremely connected.

That being said, I do agree with your check-list (I've even used similar ones in the past (nowhere near as well-thought out as yours though), and in the instance you provided, the thread question is answered.

The thing is, if Tobi or who's in the coffin are not character already introduced, I'll start to really question Kishi's ability to write a story.

As for the connection between the coffin and Tobi, I'll just say that Kishi never was super subtle about his face hiding gig. If you got an eye covered or half your face is in a cloak, then you're half Orochimaru or have an arm full of Sharigan.

Kishi is like that guy with a dead body in his closet, standing right in front of it and repeating: "Nothing in there officer!".

What kishi hasn't shown us thus far is Tobi's face and who's in the coffin. You're right in saying that knowing one doesn't actually reveals the other, but by god would I be surprised if it wasn't the case.

Do you mean an actual Bijuu was summoned? Or do you mean the Jyuubi's mind was summoned?

That being said, one of my favourite theories is that the Jyuubi is secretly leading everything. Sadly, there's no real evidence to support this theory...

Sorry. Yeah, I was talking about the Jyuubi.

We have one evidence in the form of motive and in what Tobi said to the fourth (I'm the master of the world!) which is something the Jyubi would actually think. Izuna would not say something like that. Maybe it was bad translation. Or maybe tobi and the Jyuubi are somehow sealed together or whatever but now I'm stretching it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

It's almost as if you created this thread, not to discuss the identity of Tobi, but to remove all of the Tobi=Obito and other theories from the weekly chapter threads and then come here to mock them all at once.

It's not so much that I am anti-Obito (I've stated many times that Obito could be brought back, and he could be connected to Tobi/Madara, hell I've even quoted Sagan's "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in the past), as I think a discussion should always start with the simplest answers based on the data provided. Consequently, Madara is alive (and he's received help from Zetsu) is the simplest answer, so in any discussion concerning Tobi I use the simplest answer as the prevalent theory that needs to be disproved.

Does that mean I like the simplest answer or even think it is actually the answer? No, of course not. But, the simplest answer is the one closest to the evidence we currently have, so it must be the answer "defeated" before further speculation can occur. Sadly enough, I do not think Obito (or Izuna, or Jyuubi, or Tobirama, etc) have enough evidence to actually "defeat" the evidence to support the simple answer of Madara being alive. (Note, I am not saying that because 'Madara is alive' hasn't been disproven that means that it is the "truth", I am merely saying that a speculation must explain the evidence at hand before it can stand on its own.)

As a parting gift, I give you this cool pic from several years ago:

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

As for the connection between the coffin and Tobi, I'll just say that Kishi never was super subtle about his face hiding gig. If you got an eye covered or half your face is in a cloak, then you're half Orochimaru or have an arm full of Sharigan. ...

What kishi hasn't shown us thus far is Tobi's face and who's in the coffin. You're right in saying that knowing one doesn't actually reveals the other, but by god would I be surprised if it wasn't the case.

LOL, fair enough. I also do think that the 2 questions are related (but I would be pleasantly surprised if they were not).

[TheCoconutChef]

Notice that in chapter 503, Tobi state that he rules the world, then Yondaime feel he's not lying, and then the next panel is a shot of the moon, created by the Sage of Six path to capture the Jyuubi.

They're all just toying with us now.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

Notice that in chapter 503, Tobi state that he rules the world, then Yondaime feel he's not lying, and then the next panel is a shot of the moon, created by the Sage of Six path to capture the Jyuubi.

They're all just toying with us now.

I didn't notice the moon before. Thanks for the heads up.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, one of my favourite theories is that the Jyuubi is secretly leading everything. Sadly, there's no real evidence to support this theory...

I would venture to say that we have enough evidence needed to support this theory. and this evidence lies in the idea that the Naruto series begins in the middle of a greater story that starts long before...

If we start at the very beginning, we are presented with the ultimate evil (jyuubi) vs the ultimate hero (sage of 6). the threat of this evil could only be averted by sealing it, but this proves to be only temporary because of the sage's mortality...solution, divide the jyuubi chakra into 9 parts and dispose of its body. the sage dies and his sons inherit his power [as an aside, i enjoy how this parallels the 4ths fight with the kyuubi who seals the 9 tails and in death shares the power with his son...]

Now for a few assumptions: the will of the sage (fire) is carried in the younger son, while the will of the 10 tails (hate/revenge/control of the world) passes thru the sharingan. [why would i assume this when the manga says one son got his body and the other son his eyes? well, if my fathers power is the sum total of his + a demon, i imagine my inheritance would be some proportion of this mixture. we know the older sons eyes develop into the sharingan which is strikingly similar to the jyuubis eye so bear with me] this doesnt suggest the 10 tails actually pulling the strings, but rather that the jyuubis intent to be reborn (because his defeat was only temporary) is satisfied as a consequence of a descendent carrying the sharingan lusting for power (Madara)...as we look to discover who it is behind the mask, we accept that Madara is alive because he is the only uchiha in history to to develop the strongest sharingan or at the very least one that can control the bijuu whose malice is closest to the jyuubis. I personally like to think what while Madara is alive, with the help of zetsu, he is not utilizing his original body (im comfortable with this idean because when sasuke discovers orochimaru is a big'ol white snake he describes oro as a "shell of his former self" the same as itachi describes madara)

my point, madara and jyuubi are controlling things albeit directly and indirectly respectively. madara intends to master the world (which is essentially the will of the 10 tails). and as his plan develops the jyuubi will get a more direct role

my apologies if this in disjointed or incoherent...i dont do diaries so this forum has to suffice as the place where my suspicions land...

[james0246]

^I do like the idea of the parallel you describe, and one of my main speculations as to Naruto is the possibility that his "job" within the story is to correct the wrongs of the past (specifically the wrongs done by Konoha, but I guess we can go back even farther to Rikudou-Sennin, since it is his division of power that created the world's current problems). But, none of this really necessitates the Jyuubi's active or passive involvement.

Specifically, Naruto's "job" need not be solving the potential Jyuubi crisis (solving the Akatsuki led Bijuu crisis, however he accomplishes the task, would solve the Jyuubi crisis without involving the Jyuubi), but rather solving the division of power, which is the root "evil" that plagues the Shinobi world to this day, would effectively neutralize the issue. So, bringing the Senjuu and Uchiha together/bringing the 2 Rikudou brother's bloodlines together would heal the rift, and prevent the catastrophic return of the Jyuubi.

This could very well be his destiny, not defeating the Jyuubi, but solving the animosity at the heart of the world system (and in the process stopping the Jyuubi's resurrection)...

[herculan]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I do like the idea of the parallel you describe, and one of my main speculations as to Naruto is the possibility that his "job" within the story is to correct the wrongs of the past (specifically the wrongs done by Konoha, but I guess we can go back even farther to Rikudou-Sennin, since it is his division of power that created the world's current problems). But, none of this really necessitates the Jyuubi's active or passive involvement.

Specifically, Naruto's "job" need not be solving the potential Jyuubi crisis (solving the Akatsuki led Bijuu crisis, however he accomplishes the task, would solve the Jyuubi crisis without involving the Jyuubi), but rather solving the division of power, which is the root "evil" that plagues the Shinobi world to this day, would effectively neutralize the issue. So, bringing the Senjuu and Uchiha together/bringing the 2 Rikudou brother's bloodlines together would heal the rift, and prevent the catastrophic return of the Jyuubi.

This could very well be his destiny, not defeating the Jyuubi, but solving the animosity at the heart of the world system (and in the process stopping the Jyuubi's resurrection)...

I find this a very very interesting point.. For me this is the first solution to creating peace in the narutoverse that sounds realistic for me.. I never thought about how important naruto's quest for sasuke was... By bonding with sasuke again he is healing the wounds between the 2 son's of the sage of the six paths.. The uchiha and the senjuu.. very tricky.
And now on-topic with madara's identity.
James in your above posts you seem to have forgotten the fact that kabuto said: '' Don't worry, i won't tell anyone your secret''. So the thought of the summoned one scaring tobi out of brute strenght (sage of six paths) is false..
Its someone that would unveal his secretts.. Thus probably the real madara... leaving every other possibility left for tobi to be.. He COULD be obito.. But kishi would have to come up with some very fitting almost impossible motivation for obito to behave like he did.. And it has to be someone already introduced to the story.. But who else is so evil, that he would want all this.. who else might have lost his eyes.. and to be left with one eye.. It could be izuna... Izuna may have lost his eyes and went on some crazy quest ending up with obito's other eye or something?... I'm convinced its obitos sharingan because it has teleportation abilities... Tell me what you think

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

It's not so much that I am anti-Obito (I've stated many times that Obito could be brought back, and he could be connected to Tobi/Madara, hell I've even quoted Sagan's "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in the past), as I think a discussion should always start with the simplest answers based on the data provided. Consequently, Madara is alive (and he's received help from Zetsu) is the simplest answer, so in any discussion concerning Tobi I use the simplest answer as the prevalent theory that needs to be disproved.

That is personal preference. And the "simplest answer" is subjective as well. For example, pertaining to the question "Why does a man wear a mask?", the simplest answer is "Because he wants to conceal his identity".

My method is not to assume a certain theory is true until proven otherwise, but to construct a theory that agrees with what we know. This does not lead me to Tobi=Madara because it is at odds with both Tobi's physical description and the fact that he still wears a mask and the fact that the manga is still treating this as an unresolved question despite Tobi invoking Madara's name 140 chapters ago.

so it must be the answer "defeated" before further speculation can occur.

I look at it differently. I say let the accused party be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

I base my theory on some assumption:

a) He is an Uchiha

b) He is at least as strong as Madara

c) He's a character that has been introduced before

d) His plan fits his motive which fits his backstory

e) He's old

f) There's a body in a coffin that can screw his plan up

I agree with a) due to his frequent use of the Sharingan. Unless he's using an auxiliary chakra source (as Danzou did with Hashirama's cells), I think this is a safe conclusion. I agree with b) to the extent that Tobi has the ability to control the 9-tails and Madara also had this ability. I agree with c) because it explains why he is wearing a mask. I'm not so sure I agree with d) because if we go back and look at how Pain described his motives, they were all over the place. He was talking to Hidan about controlling war using the bijuu and then he talked to Jiraiya about being a god and helping the world grow up, and then when he met Naruto it's like he was getting revenge, and then as Nagato he did a 180 when he remembered what his motives were when he was Jiraiya's pupil. Motive hasn't been the most consistent thing in this series. For assumption e), I would say that Tobi certainly has a lot of knowledge of what occured during Hashirama's era, and so his mind seems old. However, Tobi's physical body is not known to be old. Tobi's earliest appearance was 16 years ago.

Another important fact that needs to be included is that Tobi is missing body parts (at least a right arm and a left hand). Furthermore, it seems that Tobi was missing limbs prior to his fight with Minato. That is really telling because if we assume that Tobi wasn't born a quadriplegic, then it follows that Tobi lost his body parts before the 9-tails attack.

Combining this with assumption a) and c), it means that we're looking for an Uchiha that we've met before, that has lost limbs prior to the 9-tails attack. Anyone come to mind?

[herculan]

where did you see that ''tobi was missing limbs prior to his fight with minato''??
Because I do remember seeing on chapter 503 page 3 that.. madara has a gap in his left arm. at first I thought that was from minato's rasengan, but it seems that the rasengans impact was somewhere els!! so I think its save to say that tobi was indeed already terribly injured before engaging into any sorts of fight.. Trails do lead back to obito somehow.. don't they?

[morbosfist]

The fact that his arm is dripping like liquid would suggest it's a fake arm just like his most recent ones.