One Piece - Chapter 525 [Manga]

[Freya]

Originally Posted by marvelB

^ I was more or less referring to the fact that Buggy managed to escape from Impel Down. If he was able to bust out of prison despite all of the hoopla over Ace, then that would prove that there's more to him than meets the eye. I always thought that Buggy was highly underrated.....

oh i see i see. Got you lol.


How long has it been in One Piece now since Buggy last saw Luffy??

I'm hoping he improved lol. If he hasn't....then he really is worthless. I mean him and Shanks were like at par when they were kids....now they're at a completely different level.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

Moria rivaled someone that became a Yonkou. There is nothing to indicate that Moria or Kaidou had their titles at the time that they fought. Added to that, Kaidou by him/herself equaled Moria and his entire crew, and it is unknown if the past Moria could equal the current Kaidou (considering the fact that we have no idea what the current Kaidou can do). Added to that, Luffy also beat Moria, and just judging Luffy's abilities next to Rayleigh, someone presumably equal in strength to a Yonkou, I see no way that Luffy is equal to Rayleigh who can act as a stand-in for Kaidou.

So what are you trying to say?
Are you trying to deny the fact that Moria was able to rival Kaidou an Emperor?

Again this has never been confirmed. Simply because Mihawk refused to fight Shanks does not mean that Mihawk is more powerful. Added to that, Mihawk could be the most powerful Shichibukai, meaning that he equaling or potentially surpassing a Yonkou would not be indicative of either organization/title.; it would simply mean that Mihawk is powerful.

Shanks was a rival to Mihawk in the past and he is a swordsman...Mihawk is the strongest swordsman. Therefore stronger than Shanks.

For all we know, Blackbeard surprised Shanks, and then Shanks beat the shit out of Blackbeard (who also bears several scars across his body). We cannot say that Blackbeard is stronger simply because he gave Shanks a scar or because Blackbeard has a powerful DF. For example, the Sea King that took Shanks arm was certainly not stronger than Shanks, just looking at the beast caused it to flee.

It is written....

Shanks: "This one was no mark of adventure.
It did not come at the hands of Hawk-Eyes...
This scar was given to me
by YOUR man, "Blackbeard" Teach...!!
And it was not a cheap blow taken by surprise."

Picture below
[I]"The person who left three scars on Shanks' face!!
Shanks: "What hurts the most now is this scar...!!!"
Shanks got the scars on his face during his battle with Blackbeard. Able to injure Shanks without the help of the Dark Dark Fruit, Blackbeard's power should be considered as incredible...?!"[/I]

This is from One Piece Yellow....
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=311441

Obviously the Shichibukai are powerful, and two of them fighting together can probably defeat almost any character we have seen fight thus far (except possibly Whitebeard), but if just 1 Shichibukai was equal to 1 Yonkou, then the Yonkou would not currently exist considering that the WG using either the marines of Shichibukai would have more than enough power to defeat the Yonkou.

Well Moria, Mihawk and Blackbeard are proof that they can handle Emeperors.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

Let's not forget people,
Moria rivaled Kaidou [An Emperor]

the only ones who claim this are Moria's minons (or other people who probably don't know any better)... frankly i don't see how Moria "rivaled" Kaidou... i mean, at the end of their encounter Moria left defeated with his entire crew wiped out and with the impression that he was not ready to handle the monsters of the new world (hence his final message to luffy when he went down)... and apparently, whatever damage Moria did in return was not enough to weaken kaidou and his crew to the point where they would be easy prey to the other pirates in the new world...

sounds to me like Moria just got his ass handed to him...

Mihawk is stronger than Shanks [Emperor]

does not mean much when speaking of the shichibukai as a whole... the schikibukai vary greatly in strength... essentially any one of the supernova's could be considered worthy of being shickibukai... afterall, all them have higher bounties than when Croc became a Shichibukai, and as such would be considered strong enough to be shichibukai material... but at the same time, these supernova's are very weary of the likes of Kuma... hell Moria considered himself equal to Kuma but how many would really agree with such a statement?

while Mihawk and blackbeard may represent the upper portion of the shichibukai, the rest may fall below...

Hell, that quote from one piece yellow makes it sound like Oda's logic is that 7 shichibukai = 4 yonkou, and as such it takes atleast two shichibukai to equal the might of a single Yonkou, and being the strongest man in the world that would be especially if not more so true in the case of whitebeard... hell considering Luffy's progress with Shichibukai, i would not be surprised if Marco and Jozu were each on par with 1 schikibukai (sure Ace lost to blackbeard, but blackbeard may be the strongest of them and as such in a league of his own compared to the others)... this may be very well true if the power of the yonkou and the shichibukai in regards to the balance really does only consider the captains alone and not the men they lead

Blackbeard is most likely stronger than Shanks since he was able to injure Shanks without his devil fruit ability. Now that Blackbeard has his devil fruit abilty he is possibly stronger.

first half of that statement is very flawed... Blackbeard injuring shanks does NOT mean he was strong or even capable of defeating shanks at the time... this is enough to tell use he was strong enough to get in a good hit and that said hit was enough to tell shanks that Blackbeard has some serious potential but it does NOT mean blackbeard could rival shansk without the devil fruit

And the second half is an unknown... though i lean in agreement only because i expect Blackbeard to be like one of if not THE final boss for Luffy... and such a character would need to be stronger than shanks

[Freya]

Hmm so if hancock works with Luffy.....then...?

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

the only ones who claim this are Moria's minons (or other people who probably don't know any better)... frankly i don't see how Moria "rivaled" Kaidou... i mean, at the end of their encounter Moria left defeated with his entire crew wiped out and with the impression that he was not ready to handle the monsters of the new world (hence his final message to luffy when he went down)... and apparently, whatever damage Moria did in return was not enough to weaken kaidou and his crew to the point where they would be easy prey to the other pirates in the new world...

sounds to me like Moria just got his ass handed to him...

Moria lost to Kaidou yes but it was close. Hence the reason for RIVAL...Why do you think Moria was gonna go back to take the throne of Pirate King. Cause he felt he could do it and that's what rivals are close in power or equals.

does not mean much when speaking of the shichibukai as a whole... the schikibukai vary greatly in strength... essentially any one of the supernova's could be considered worthy of being shickibukai... afterall, all them have higher bounties than when Croc became a Shichibukai, and as such would be considered strong enough to be shichibukai material... but at the same time, these supernova's are very weary of the likes of Kuma... hell Moria considered himself equal to Kuma but how many would really agree with such a statement?

while Mihawk and blackbeard may represent the upper portion of the shichibukai, the rest may fall below...

Hell, that quote from one piece yellow makes it sound like Oda's logic is that 7 shichibukai = 4 yonkou, and as such it takes atleast two shichibukai to equal the might of a single Yonkou, and being the strongest man in the world that would be especially if not more so true in the case of whitebeard... hell considering Luffy's progress with Shichibukai, i would not be surprised if Marco and Jozu were each on par with 1 schikibukai (sure Ace lost to blackbeard, but blackbeard may be the strongest of them and as such in a league of his own compared to the others)... this may be very well true if the power of the yonkou and the shichibukai in regards to the balance really does only consider the captains alone and not the men they lead

How does 7 Shichibukai equal for Emeprors when we got two Shichibukai [Mihawk and Blackbeard] who is STRONGER than Shanks and one win Moria who rivaled Kaidou?

first half of that statement is very flawed... Blackbeard injuring shanks does NOT mean he was strong or even capable of defeating shanks at the time... this is enough to tell use he was strong enough to get in a good hit and that said hit was enough to tell shanks that Blackbeard has some serious potential but it does NOT mean blackbeard could rival shansk without the devil fruit

And the second half is an unknown... though i lean in agreement only because i expect Blackbeard to be like one of if not THE final boss for Luffy... and such a character would need to be stronger than shanks

Shanks getting injured means Blackbeard had the upper hand. Hence the reason why Shanks told Whitebeard about Blackbeard's power.
Now that Blackbeard has the fruit he is possibly stronger than Shanks.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Freya

Hmm so if hancock works with Luffy.....then...?

Hancock is gonna DIE [Well I hope she dies or leaves back to her island]!

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by The Small One

You can't just make an equation out of it. It's too complicated.

And it's not evven correct.
It should be something like:
Marines == Shichibukai == Yonkou

It's a balance! Its made this way, that neither of those parties can overtop one of the others alone, without the help of remaining one.

If you've actually followed my equation posts, you would have known that I started with Marines/WG == Shichibukai == Yonkou.

Then it went to WG + Shichibukai = Yonkou, because it seems that the WG are the ones who are scared of the Yonkou and needed help from Shichibukai to form a balance between the powers of the WG and Yonkou.

It finally went to 3WG + 4Yonkou = 7Shichibukai, because like I said, stated by Kuma and feared by Shanks, Blackbeard becoming a Shichibukai, has toppled the balance of powers. The Shichibukai now holds more power than either group.

And they're also extremely dangerous because of people like Moria, Doflamingo and Blackbeard, who are brewing something bad for their own desires. Then there's Kuma, who seems to be following orders from the WG but doing things his own ways. Of course we also have Hancock and Jinbei who are already doing things against the WG.

If anything big is going to happen, it could very well be the Shichibukai toppling the balance of the powers. You can say there's no longer an equation if it carries on.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

So what are you trying to say?
Are you trying to deny the fact that Moria was able to rival Kaidou an Emperor?

I am denying nothing. Rather, I am emphasizing exactly what we do not know about the encounter. Kaidou, by him or herself, destroyed all of Moria's crew, and then defeated Moria. That is all we know. Added to that, to speculate off of that data, maybe Kaidou didn't even defeat Moria, instead Moria simply gave up, or fled. And of course, you have to address the fact that even if they really did fight, Moria was said to equal Kaidou over a decade ago. Who knows what powers Kaidou currently has? (Added to this, Moria claimed that he would need Odz strength just to equal Kaidou. So it would be Odz + Moria that potentially = Kaidou, not Moria = Kaidou.)

In the end, it is incorrect to say that Moria equaled a Yonkou. That is simply false. Instead, we have to say that Moria lost to a man that went on to become a Yonkou (And, Kaidou beat a man that would one day become a Shichibukai). For instance, when Luffy becomes the Pirate King, will we then say that Crocodile/Lucci/Enel/Moria/etc is equal to the Pirate King? No, we will say that those individuals fought the person who later became the Pirate King. (To be partially factitious, Buggy was said to rival Shanks back in the day, so does that mean that Buggy is equal to a Yonkou ?)

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

Shanks was a rival to Mihawk in the past and he is a swordsman...Mihawk is the strongest swordsman. Therefore stronger than Shanks.

So, Shanks has no other ability besides being a swordsman? Where is the proof of that? There is no real reason to believe that Shanks only knows how to use a sword, his Haki abilities more or less confirm this (Zoro's bloodlust seems different from haki). In fact, since we have never seen him fight at all, there is no reason to assume anything about Shanks (or any of the Yonkou).

Added to that, even if Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, that does not mean that a single Shichibukai is always equal to a single Yonkou. Rather, it simply means that Mihawk would be stronger than Shanks. For all we know, Mihawk could be the strongest Shichibukai, and Shanks the weakest Yonkou. So that would mean that Shanks can defeat all other Shichibukai, and Mihawk can defeat no other Yonkou. Honestly, there is no data available to properly discuss the matter.

And, again, there is no actual fight, so there is no reason to decide that one trumps the other without sufficient data, which we do not have.

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

It is written....
This is from One Piece Yellow....

I already addressed this point when talking to marvelB.

[Noshino]

Shanks was a rival to Mihawk in the past and he is a swordsman...Mihawk is the strongest swordsman. Therefore stronger than Shanks.

IIRC, it was mentioned that Mihawk simply lost interest in fighting a one-armed man.

It is written....

Shanks: "This one was no mark of adventure.
It did not come at the hands of Hawk-Eyes...
This scar was given to me
by YOUR man, "Blackbeard" Teach...!!
And it was not a cheap blow taken by surprise."

Picture below
[I]"The person who left three scars on Shanks' face!!
Shanks: "What hurts the most now is this scar...!!!"
Shanks got the scars on his face during his battle with Blackbeard. Able to injure Shanks without the help of the Dark Dark Fruit, Blackbeard's power should be considered as incredible...?!"[/I]

This is from One Piece Yellow....
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=311441

I still don't get this part, correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Blackbeard consumed the fruit soon after murdering his comrade, if that's so, then by the time he fought Shanks then he was already a DF user.

But according to the Data Books, Shanks mentions that he fought him before he was a DF user, why would have he not become a DF user by then? I doesn't really make much sense...

Well Moria, Mihawk and Blackbeard are proof that they can handle Emeperors.

Uh, Moria is also proof that the crew does matter (to some extent), he was able to match a Yonkou, yet he also mentioned that his whole crew was defeated, hence why he ended up retreating. Most likely meaning that amongst the second highest tier in command, the Yonkous have the most powerful people We end up coming back to the same equation

World Government = 7 Shichibukais = 4 Yonkous

WG: Main Advantage is their number, yes they do have 3 admirals, but they also have the most average/above average fighters

Shichibukais: The most powerful individuals along with the Yonkous

Yonkous: Powerful Pirates (including the one that is said to be the most powerful man in the world), it could be said that they have most and best above average fighters, I mean, just looking at Shanks we have Lucky, Ben, and Yassop, and hell, even Rockstar with a bounty of 94 million still considered a rookie amongst them.

[james0246]

^We do not know when Shanks and Blackbeard originally met. But, since Shanks had the scar 10 years ago when he met Luffy, then the scar is 10+ years old. Blackbeard only gained the DF recently (within the past year probably, if not sooner).

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

Moria lost to Kaidou yes but it was close. Hence the reason for RIVAL...Why do you think Moria was gonna go back to take the throne of Pirate King. Cause he felt he could do it and that's what rivals are close in power or equals.

Pirates all over the grandline are saying they are gonna go and claim the crown of the pirate king... that doesn't mean they are even close to doing it or even have the portential. Hell Moria apparently needed to build up an army of hundreds of zombies, a thousand shadows, and the raw power and might of OZ before he felt he was confident to go and take another shot at Kaidou... and i know damn well he didn't have Oz and probably had a much different and likely weaker crew back then...

Like i said, from what we've been told it sounds like Moria was utterly defeated... a true rival would have dealt as much damage as he received... Kaidou himself, would likely need to leave the new world to rebuild his crew as an encounter with a true rival would have left him easy prey for the other monsters of the new world... Hell the marines would have likely sent in troops to take advantage of his weakened state to finish him off for good.

thing is, Moria was beaten by Luffy and claimed that Luffy was not ready for the new world and that he would loose everything if he went... if Moria said this during his OWN defeat to the person he was saying it too, then how ready was he REALLY for taking on the new world... when it comes down to it, he was defeated so badly he felt he needed to spend the next 10 years gathering power to take another shot at... a real rival would needed less time to feel the confident enough to take another shot.

How does 7 Shichibukai equal for Emeprors when we got two Shichibukai [Mihawk and Blackbeard] who is STRONGER than Shanks and one win Moria who rivaled Kaidou?

Well i already expressed how i feel that Moria certain does not equal in strength to Kaidou... also, my assessment comes from the quote you pulled from the one piece databooks which is essentially "word of god" on the issue... though the book might not have considered Blackbeard depending on when it came out and as a reflection that Kuma feels that with inclusion of Blackbeard the powers are out of balance

Shanks getting injured means Blackbeard had the upper hand. Hence the reason why Shanks told Whitebeard about Blackbeard's power.
Now that Blackbeard has the fruit he is possibly stronger than Shanks.

for a moment, it only means he had the upper hand for a moment... that does not mean that blackbeard was stronger... Just because a character is weaker does NOT mean they are incapable of leaving any kind of scar or mark on a stronger enemy. During their fight, blackbeard might have left that mark but realized that if the fight kept going he was gonna eventually loose and fled

And shanks telling whitebeard about Blackbeard? more than likely Shanks felt that one encounter was enough to tell him that blackbeard has serious potential... much like how Mihawk, who utterly destroyed Zoro, felt that Zoro would one day be able to rival him...

[Phenomenal]

LOL Phenomenal is always the center of attention...

Hey, how about we get back on topic and lets just discuss the spoilers.
I'm quite sure we will have plenty to talk about concerning the Shichibukai/Emperors later.


I know MarvelB and Xris and the rest of the members are mad at me, LOL.

Anyways I just noticed that Ace's Public execution is 33 hours away...

SHOWTIME!!

[Paraden1989]

i really wonder who Luffy and Ace's mother might be, and where she is because i remember that Luffy and Ace were being taken care of by Garp who later left them in the care of a close friend, so i wonder who sh is and where she is

[kari-no-sugata]

Reading through the script a bit...

It seems Alvida and co spent a lot of money even to be able to come to the place - looks like they bought an Eternal Pose for the place. They mention that Buggy and Ace met once and became friends (as it were) and now look likely to be executed together (or near enough). It looks like they'll be hanging around the area just a bit longer...

Before leaving for Impel Down, when Hancock discussed with Momonga about seeing Ace, since he was at the center of it all. ie, seeing Ace is not something she asked for on arriving, but was a condition of her coming at all. She had to agree in advance that she'd wear seastone cuffs inside the prison and so on. Luffy comments that there's more ships here than at the Buster Call.

It's mentioned right at the end that Buggy has escaped his cell (not the prison!). It looks like they didn't realise he was a Devil Fruit user (d'oh). It's kinda ironic in a way - earlier in the chapter Alvida says something like "Buggy's luck finally ran out". I don't think it did

In terms of how the cells operate, it rather feels like a prison from feudal Japan...

[seiji_kun]

Oh no my worst nightmare is comming true, Alvida & Buggy are near Impel Down. This is hardly the place for them to have a quarrel with Luffy if they encounter each other though it is rather pleasant to see them reappear. But spare me of Buggy helping Ace when Luffy & Boa escape with Ace. I can already see him waving "over here" on his selfmade raft after spotting Ace but not Luffy and then arguing with Luffy.

Though you got to give it to him, escaping Impel Down at this time is quite admirable. Or it could be that all the troops are focused on the building where Ace is while Buggy didn't even had seacuffs on then he would have rather have an easy time seeing his DF is perfect for escaping. I do wonder how he got caught but this place is totally out of league for Buggy & co and I can't see him do much except a mr 2 @ Alabastar but that would be kind of out of char for Buggy. Cause I can't see Luffy, Boa & Ace + Buggy getting to Buggy's crew and then head to Amazon Lily. Though it would be funny to see WB's reaction if he hears Ace got saved bye that other apprentice on Roger's ship and he would know that the big red nose is still alive.

Btw can someone give me proof that the shichi's weren't allowed to bring additional crewmembers cause that VA Momo only said: "The only ones boarding are you and the snake right?" which imo does imply that they were allowed to bring extra crewmembers if they wanted. Nor did they ever say that they weren't allowed to have a crew, like Slayerx said. That's just made up bye fans. It wouldn't even make sense that they should abolish their crews...

[marvelB]

Heh, so apparently, Buggy managed to escape Impel Down by pretending that he wasn't a DF user, according to the new summary I read. Too bad his crew abandoned him, though (lol). But again, the fact that he did manage to escape from prison despite all the extra security due to Ace's capture is definitely an impressive feat. Too bad I didn't see him in any of the spoiler pics (just his crew and Alvida)....



Heh, it also looks like Hancock avoided the body check by simply using her charms on the guards (no surprise, really). Impel Down is definitely no joke, since the summary mentions prisoners being tortured left and right (and apparently some of them even die because it mentions that one of them gets impaled and becomes a skeleton, and another becomes food for spiders, but I'm not 100% certain right now). I still eagerly await the powerful guards that Luffy will face in that prison.....

[fireportgas]

Well about the equation of the three powers!Well I believe it goes something like that Yonkou>WG>Shichibukai...Well about the equation 4yonkou+3WG=7shichibukai well I think there's no way it will be like that...First of all u people claim that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks but I don't think it's true!He may be stronger only as a swordman since Mihawk is the strongest swordman in the world but generally not stronger than Shanks!I don't think that Shanks fight only with a sword,of course he has haki but we still don't have enough information!About Blackbeard as you stated he just give some scars to Shanks he didn't beat him!And even we assumed that Mihawk and Blackbeard are stronger than Shanks why then the WG wouldn't send them to capture him since they even knew his location when he was about to meet with WB?Oh and I remembered that the WG was really afraid of the fact that Shanks and Whitebeard might form an alliance!They were just so afraid of 2 Yonkous together...About Moria rivaling Kaidou it's just an old story and Moria still lost by the way!There wouldn't be even a great pirate age if WG together with Shichibukai were stronger than yonkou!So I think it goes like that 4yonkous>WG+7shichibukai!

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Heh, so apparently, Buggy managed to escape Impel Down by pretending that he wasn't a DF user, according to the new summary I read. Too bad his crew abandoned him, though (lol). But again, the fact that he did manage to escape from prison despite all the extra security due to Ace's capture is definitely an impressive feat. Too bad I didn't see him in any of the spoiler pics (just his crew and Alvida)....



Heh, it also looks like Hancock avoided the body check by simply using her charms on the guards (no surprise, really). Impel Down is definitely no joke, since the summary mentions prisoners being tortured left and right (and apparently some of them even die because it mentions that one of them gets impaled and becomes a skeleton, and another becomes food for spiders, but I'm not 100% certain right now). I still eagerly await the powerful guards that Luffy will face in that prison.....

Yeah and to note, the chapter looks like it ends with Hancock just about to enter the prison.

[Bonta Kun]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Heh, so apparently, Buggy managed to escape Impel Down by pretending that he wasn't a DF user, according to the new summary I read. Too bad his crew abandoned him, though (lol). But again, the fact that he did manage to escape from prison despite all the extra security due to Ace's capture is definitely an impressive feat. Too bad I didn't see him in any of the spoiler pics (just his crew and Alvida)....



Heh, it also looks like Hancock avoided the body check by simply using her charms on the guards (no surprise, really). Impel Down is definitely no joke, since the summary mentions prisoners being tortured left and right (and apparently some of them even die because it mentions that one of them gets impaled and becomes a skeleton, and another becomes food for spiders, but I'm not 100% certain right now). I still eagerly await the powerful guards that Luffy will face in that prison.....

ok I may be totally off here but don't the WG know Buggy is a DF user?
theres no way they wouldn't know right?
and I won't accept that dumbass marines actually fell for Buggy's ploy, thats just too lame....

If I'm mistaken by this, feel free to correct me but I was pretty sure the Marines know about Buggy pretty well.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Bonta Kun

ok I may be totally off here but don't the WG know Buggy is a DF user?
theres no way they wouldn't know right?
and I won't accept that dumbass marines actually fell for Buggy's ploy, thats just too lame....

If I'm mistaken by this, feel free to correct me but I was pretty sure the Marines know about Buggy pretty well.

I'd guess that the marines would consider Buggy too much of a small fry to bother researching his background thoroughly, especially since they're more focused on Ace at the moment. In short, the marines underestimated him as much as some of the members here did.