Character Discussion - Hanekawa Tsubasa

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Tsubasa did not "friend zone" Koyomi.

Instead she took things for granted and waited for him to confess.

However, Hanekawa has been building up stress her whole life and Koyomi's company helps her to forget that stress at home and school and she feels at ease around him.

So she gets him to become her vice president so she can keep him with her often. She was in no rush to seduce him.

However she transformed into the cat when she did not see Koyomi for a while to relieve her stress. the first time was during golden week.

Ever since Koyomi has been constantly with her and so she was once again comfortable.

When Hitagi becomes Koyomi's girlfriend this stress Hanekawa out for four reasons.

1. Jealousy.

2. He starts paying more attention to Hitagi and even her friend Kanbaru. So Tsubasa's time spent with Koyomi has been reduced and her stress starts to slowly build up again. Especially while she is most lonely in the evenings wandering around the town or in the library, since she does not ever want to go home, In the evenings Koyomi is with Hitagi.

3. Koyomi starts asking Hanekawa advice on his new relationship with Hitagi. This adds more stress to Hanaekawa. Koyomi is cluless about how Hanekawa feels about him.

4. Hitagi succeded in getting Koyomi to think seriously about life and university and his future. Something that Hanekawa failed to do. His gradual change into a more reliable person was what Hanekawa wanted for Koyomi and she wanted to be the reason for that change. However Hitagi is the one that triggered that change and he is doing it to spend a future with Senjougaraha Hitagi. More stressssssssss

Even though most of the stuff you are saying is true I think you are giving Hitagi way too much credit. His change in way of looking at his life is something that came to be after all the interactions he had with all the heroines.

Shinobu give him a reason not to die since he promised he would die wth her. (Even though he still looks for death here and there.)

Tsubasa gave him his first friend after 3 years.

Hitagi gave him someone to love.

Mayoi gave him a friend he can really open his heart too. (Koyomi consider Mayoi's fate to be worse than his and that's why he can talk to her freely)

Kanbaru taught him that sometimes he needs to put his life in front of others.

Nadeko....I don't know what Nadeko did but I'm sure she affected his life in someway.

Also, this goes all the way back to the whole discussion about how everyone who has read Kizu would think Hanekawa should be Koyomi girlfriend instead since they have been through a lot more hardship together.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by omimon

Even though most of the stuff you are saying is true I think you are giving Hitagi way too much credit. His change in way of looking at his life is something that came to be after all the interactions he had with all the heroines.

Shinobu give him a reason not to die since he promised he would die wth her. (Even though he still looks for death here and there.)

Tsubasa gave him his first friend after 3 years.

Hitagi gave him someone to love.

Mayoi gave him a friend he can really open his heart too. (Koyomi consider Mayoi's fate to be worse than his and that's why he can talk to her freely)

Kanbaru taught him that sometimes he needs to put his life in front of others.

Nadeko....I don't know what Nadeko did but I'm sure she affected his life in someway.

Also, this goes all the way back to the whole discussion about how everyone who has read Kizu would think Hanekawa should be Koyomi girlfriend instead since they have been through a lot more hardship together.

The argument is within the context of a comparison with Tsubasa and Hitagi.

And WHY Tsubasa is particularly stressed...

Simply put, Koyomi did not start studying with Hanekawa in the evenings. He started with Senjougahara.

For Hanekawa this is bad... he does not stay with her in the evenings anymore.

Secondly, he asked Hanaekawa to help him purchase academic reference books because he wanted to go to the same University that Hitagi already had a reference acceptance for. Add this to his asking her for relationship advice and you have a boiler room situation.

A heated situation for Hanekawa who now realises that Koyomi is making plans to have a future with Senjougahara and not her.

In the big picture when considering Koyomi, I will indeed agree that one could describe all the heorines as ingredients to a medicine for change in Koyomi.

However I am focused on talking about his changes as it relates to Hitagi and Hanekawa and... pay attention now... the most important thing that made Hanekawa stressed]

The other women take some of Koyomi's time but none take it up as much as.... Hitagi... who is now Koyomi's girlfriend... something that Hanekawa wanted for herself.

[Azuma Denton]

Wogh...
What a heated discussion...


Lemme post my thought on Hanekawa's matter...

Clearly Hanekawa has a feeling to Koyomi. But she is too stiff with Koyomi. After all, like Koyomi says, she is an representative between representative. While Koyomi is a laid back person. Because of this, Hanekawa is too slow on making approach on Koyomi.

While Hitagi on other side, after she confirmed that she herself has a feeling for Koyomi, she goes out frontal attack on Koyomi. And Hitagi even enquiry about his relationship with Hanekawa.

So basicly, maybe Hanekawa is a better person suited for Koyomi. But relationship is not always about compability. Is it about whose first confession got accepted. Well for Hitagi, she is lucky because her bold confession got accepted right away by Koyomi. So after that, eventhough Hanekawa is 5x more suited for Koyomi, she must bid farewell to this because yeah, officially Hitagi is Koyomi's girlfriend now.

Better luck next time when Koyomi is single again, Hanekawa...


EDIT:
Well, Hanekawa is far too kind to be the snatch Koyomi away from Hitagi...
I kinda hope that Hanekawa will be the third party in Koyomi and Hitagi relationship so it will become a shounen drama opera soap story...
Blah nevermind, just another random silly thought...

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

Wogh...
What a heated discussion...


Lemme post my thought on Hanekawa's matter...

Clearly Hanekawa has a feeling to Koyomi. But she is too stiff with Koyomi. After all, like Koyomi says, she is an representative between representative. While Koyomi is a laid back person. Because of this, Hanekawa is too slow on making approach on Koyomi.

While Hitagi on other side, after she confirmed that she herself has a feeling for Koyomi, she goes out frontal attack on Koyomi. And Hitagi even enquiry about his relationship with Hanekawa.

So basicly, maybe Hanekawa is a better person suited for Koyomi. But relationship is not always about compability. Is it about whose first confession got accepted. Well for Hitagi, she is lucky because her bold confession got accepted right away by Koyomi. So after that, eventhough Hanekawa is 5x more suited for Koyomi, she must bid farewell to this because yeah, officially Hitagi is Koyomi's girlfriend now.

Better luck next time when Koyomi is single again, Hanekawa...


EDIT:
Well, Hanekawa is far too kind to be the snatch Koyomi away from Hitagi...
I kinda hope that Hanekawa will be the third party in Koyomi and Hitagi relationship so it will become a shounen drama opera soap story...
Blah nevermind, just another random silly thought...

This is EXACTLY what I have been preaching at since the dawn of time. Hanekawa is definitely the better match but Hitagi is first one across the line. But in the end, Shinobu is the one getting the last laugh.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by omimon

But in the end, Shinobu is the one getting the last laugh.

Really ?

You know... you are a very dark person.

Think things through man !

Assuming that Hitagi and Koymi end up married...

You really feel that Hitagi's death at the end of 70 or so years is point for the last laugh ?

If Shinobu cares for Koyomi you feel she will enjoy watching him in pain from his wifes death ?

Lets play your bias then...

Suppose Koyomi ended up with Hanekawa instead of Hitagi by virtue of Hanekawa allegedly being the better girl for Koyomi, would you also say "in the end Shinobu is going to have the last laugh ?

What of Hanekawa's assumed children with Koyomi, you think it would be cool for Koyomi to watch his children grow old and die ?

While he continues to live with a bloodsucking oddity ?

Why do you think the Samurai that was with Shinobu first decided to die ?

You know, in the theorehtical scenario that Koyomi and Hanekawa end up together based on Hanekawas nature she would covince Koyomi to get rid of Shinobu.

Oshino is a genius and right all the time... Hanekawa is also right all the time... what do you think Koyomi will do ?

There is no way Hanekawa would share her life with both Koyomi and Shinobu whilst watching... and she knows about Shinobu.

I do not know if Hitagi knows.

So... in the end... KOYOMI has to grow up and make a SANE choice.

His childish problem is that he doesn't want to make a sane choice right now.

In then end... if Koyomi does not grow up... is in for a miserable life.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Really ?

On Hitagi's death bed Koyomi begs Shinobu to extend his wifes life.

Shinobu can't bear to see Koyomi hurt so she......

I can see that in the future... can't you ?

Perhaps... Koyomi will listen to Oshino... and abandon Shinobu.

Wouldn't want his kids to be born with vampire traits now would he.

An oddity is an oddity nothing more nothing less.

I mean if I were Nisio, i'd have Shinobu bite Hitagi as well.

Just to make things interesting.

It would be interesting but it would be overkill to have THREE vampires running around. Also, Araragi knows how painful it is to be a vampire so I doubt he would let that happen. I mean he himself doesn't want to be a vampire.....even though it is handy to have those powers as we have seen from the fights he has been having.

Honestly this is the whole reason why I see Tsubasa in a better light than Hitagi, Tsubasa is able to help Koyomi in times of hardship....on the other hand he isn't even willing to tell Hitagi anything about Kaiis. (Even though he was the one who said they shouldn't keep those stuff in the dark.) I can count at least 5 examples where Hitagi doesn't know Koyomi was involved with a Kaii, and two of those examples she had to found out from a third party which made her not particularly happy. Hitagi is only there for the emotional support where as Hanekawa can actually be a backup.

In the end Shinobu and Hanekawa is to Koyomi as Batgirl and Robin to Batman.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by omimon

It would be interesting but it would be overkill to have THREE vampires running around. Also, Araragi knows how painful it is to be a vampire so I doubt he would let that happen. I mean he himself doesn't want to be a vampire.....even though it is handy to have those powers as we have seen from the fights he has been having.

Honestly this is the whole reason why I see Tsubasa in a better light than Hitagi, Tsubasa is able to help Koyomi in times of hardship....on the other hand he isn't even willing to tell Hitagi anything about Kaiis. (Even though he was the one who said they shouldn't keep those stuff in the dark.) I can count at least 5 examples where Hitagi doesn't know Koyomi was involved with a Kaii, and two of those examples she had to found out from a third party which made her not particularly happy.

In the end Shinobu and Hanekawa is to Koyomi as Batgirl and Robin to Batman.

1. There are several Robins.


2. There are several Batgirls.


Which one are you talking about ?


None of them have been happily ever after with Batman because of his wishywashy state.

All of them have had mental trauma with and because of Batman.


3. One of the robins eventually leaves batman to become Nightwing, because Batman is simply an asshole.

4. Batmans own blood son is freaking crazy and as Robin... well read the comics and you find out.

Think Things through man

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

1. There are several Robins.


2. There are several Batgirls.


Which one are you talking about ?


None of them have been happily ever after with Batman because of his wishywashy state.

All of them have had mental trauma with and because of Batman.


3. One of the robins eventually leaves batman to become Nightwing, because Batman is simply an asshole.

4. Batmans own blood son is freaking crazy and as Robin... well read the comics and you find out.

Think Things through man

Well this point I really can't argue since I don't know much about Batman. I just used them as an example as what I thought was a good partnership. If that's how you want to play it then......Shaggy and Scooby-Doo...I don't know I going on with a limp here.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

This girl was the generic "loves the main character but won't tell him" type. I don't think girls like her would fare much better in real life either. She is cool and awesome but she is indecisive and wants the world to stop and run at her pace, not gonna happen.

[ickem]

The thing about Hanekawa as a romantic interest for Koyomi is that she doesn't really pique his interest in the way. Oh he finds her physically attractive of course, but the thing that screams at him the most about her seems to be that she's about as interesting as a piece of wood to him in one of his favorite past times . While Koyomi's tongue isn't as facile as Hitagi's he loves verbal banter and can give as good as he takes in most cases, but I don't know if Hanekawa has ever engaged him in this way. I mean when she helped Koyomi choose reference books she dissected his pun about Hitagi before even thinking to laugh. I think wet blanket describes her in this. Don't get me wrong though, I really like Hanekawa, but I've never really felt that she made a good romantic match with Koyomi. Like Hitagi said, she lives a different world than the two of them.

P.S. Btw omimon, you were talking about Hitagi being interest in Koyomi for one thing, but remember that Hanekawa first approached him because she thought he was a vampire.

[Azuma Denton]

Originally Posted by omimon

It would be interesting but it would be overkill to have THREE vampires running around. Also, Araragi knows how painful it is to be a vampire so I doubt he would let that happen. I mean he himself doesn't want to be a vampire.....even though it is handy to have those powers as we have seen from the fights he has been having.

Honestly this is the whole reason why I see Tsubasa in a better light than Hitagi, Tsubasa is able to help Koyomi in times of hardship....on the other hand he isn't even willing to tell Hitagi anything about Kaiis. (Even though he was the one who said they shouldn't keep those stuff in the dark.) I can count at least 5 examples where Hitagi doesn't know Koyomi was involved with a Kaii, and two of those examples she had to found out from a third party which made her not particularly happy. Hitagi is only there for the emotional support where as Hanekawa can actually be a backup.

In the end Shinobu and Hanekawa is to Koyomi as Batgirl and Robin to Batman.

Hmm, nice theory there...

But as i know...
Many guys dont preach about their problems to their girlfriends...

As my opinion, i think Koyomi is one of the guys like that. He treasures Hitagi so much that he wont involve her in oddities problem.

And i disagree with your post about Hanekawa and Shinobu being Batgirl and Robin to Batman...

Do you really think that Hitagi cant be help to Koyomi.
Remember, in Bakemonogatari, she has 3 crucial moves:
One, she help solves the problem of Mayoi.
Two, she help solves the problem of Kanbaru.
Three, she assigns Kanbaru to watch Koyomi and in the end, Kanbaru prevent Koyomi being killed by the snake.

Hitagi may not be as much as help as Hanekawa and Shinobu, but i dont think she is incapable of helping Koyomi... Just that, Koyomi prefers not to include Hitagi in his oddities problem.

As Shinobu getting the last laugh, as i havent read Kizu or Nise, i cannot discuss this because i still dont have a firm grasp on Shinobu or Kissshot character.

[Forbin]

Look at it this way.
The Author wanted to try a 'reverse' harem.

So Hanekawa and Koyomi Guy / Girl roles are reversed

Koyomi thinks that Hanekawa is in the 'friend' zone.
Hanekawa thinks that taking it slow with Koyomi will break the 'friend' zone.

Haha, that sounds exactly reversed of a guy / girl friendship.

[Tabasco]

I wouldn't say that.

It's more like Hanekawa isn't sending signals she's interested, and Koyomi isn't pursuing his own attempts due to his feeling indebted to her.

[AC730]

Originally Posted by Forbin

Look at it this way.
The Author wanted to try a 'reverse' harem.

So Hanekawa and Koyomi Guy / Girl roles are reversed

Koyomi thinks that Hanekawa is in the 'friend' zone.
Hanekawa thinks that taking it slow with Koyomi will break the 'friend' zone.

Haha, that sounds exactly reversed of a guy / girl friendship.

Both Hanekawa and Araragi play it 'safe' if you know what I mean.
Araragi may seem thick but he seems more afraid or reluctant to act on his will no matter what the motivation is.
Or Araragi is just retarded, I mean just really slow

[Sillya]

Araragi is too slow and he don't think, that actually would to happen. Hanekawa is too shy and she play it "safe" better.But Tsubasa don't really love Koyomi. The cat said too: Tsubasa just wanted to break the average family life. I really love Tsubasa character. ^^ But i love Koyomi x Hitagi better. ^^"

[Johnny]

I wonder what happened to the rather forward Hanekawa from early on. Referring to what I've been reading in Koyomi Vamp. She should have stuck with that same mentality and brazen attitude she had when she took off her panties and then handed them to him...

I guess some of it can be passed on to Araragi's thick head and "she wouldn't fall for me" talk, but it's a shame nonetheless. I really liked her character in this part of the series...

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Johnny

I wonder what happened to the rather forward Hanekawa from early on. Referring to what I've been reading in Koyomi Vamp. She should have stuck with that same mentality and brazen attitude she had when she took off her panties and then handed them to him...

I guess some of it can be passed on to Araragi's thick head and "she wouldn't fall for me" talk

Well, aside from the fact that Araragi got another girl, there was also the Golden Week incident.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by omimon

Even though most of the stuff you are saying is true I think you are giving Hitagi way too much credit. His change in way of looking at his life is something that came to be after all the interactions he had with all the heroines.

Shinobu give him a reason not to die since he promised he would die wth her. (Even though he still looks for death here and there.)

Tsubasa gave him his first friend after 3 years.

Hitagi gave him someone to love.

Mayoi gave him a friend he can really open his heart too. (Koyomi consider Mayoi's fate to be worse than his and that's why he can talk to her freely)

Kanbaru taught him that sometimes he needs to put his life in front of others.

Nadeko....I don't know what Nadeko did but I'm sure she affected his life in someway.

Also, this goes all the way back to the whole discussion about how everyone who has read Kizu would think Hanekawa should be Koyomi girlfriend instead since they have been through a lot more hardship together.

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant as long as Tsubasa doesn't believe it. Black Hanekawa emerges from Tsubasa's stress, so as long as she's troubled by it, it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks; the cat is coming out.

She took things for granted. She was completely fine before because Koyomi used to be this loser with no friends, so she obviously had no competition and was aware that she was special to Koyomi. Then Araragi suddenly started meeting one girl after another and events in Kizu wasn't an exclusive secret between them anymore.

However, Tsubasa never concerned about her own feelings. In Kizu when she was caught, she said apologized for being caught instead of saying "save me!" In Bakemonogatari when she mentioned getting hit on the face by her dad, she defends her dad and justifies his action, even though anyone can tell that would hurt her.

Here we have a girl who has problems but doesn't realize how much it affects her. If she did, she would have admitted them and Black Hanekawa would never have to come out. It takes Hitagi to point out what Tsubasa herself wants in Neko-Shiro before she finally realizes that she has feelings of her own.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

She took things for granted. She was completely fine before because Koyomi used to be this loser with no friends, so she obviously had no competition and was aware that she was special to Koyomi.

Actually, it is explicitly explained in Neko-Shiro that

Spoiler for nekoshiro:

Hanekawa fell in love with Araragi when he helped another girl. Just that. Officially there is no premeditation since Kizu. Btw, Hanekawa possibly felt only some similarity in Araragi having no friends, since she doesn't have any either. She never chose him because she wouldn't have had any competition, otherwise she wouldn't have described herself as his friend from the start.

However, Tsubasa never concerned about her own feelings. In Kizu when she was caught, she said apologized for being caught instead of saying "save me!" In Bakemonogatari when she mentioned getting hit on the face by her dad, she defends her dad and justifies his action, even though anyone can tell that would hurt her.

Yeah, Hanekawa is a schizoid, like Ii-chan or Togame. That's part of her charm.

If she did, she would have admitted them and Black Hanekawa would never have to come out.

Actually, the first Black Hanekawa came out because of Hanekawa's parents. I don't understand what's the issue with Black Hanekawa, though.

It takes Hitagi to point out what Tsubasa herself wants in Neko-Shiro before she finally realizes that she has feelings of her own.

Specifically, what point are you talking of?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Actually, it is explicitly explained in Neko-Shiro that

Spoiler for nekoshiro:

Hanekawa fell in love with Araragi when he helped another girl. Just that. Officially there is no premeditation since Kizu. Btw, Hanekawa possibly felt only some similarity in Araragi having no friends, since she doesn't have any either. She never chose him because she wouldn't have had any competition, otherwise she wouldn't have described herself as his friend from the start.

I didn't mean that she chose him because he would be an easy target. I mean she took her time with Araragi and didn't pursue a deeper relationship because she never had to until he suddenly started making friends with even more girls.

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Actually, the first Black Hanekawa came out because of Hanekawa's parents. I don't understand what's the issue with Black Hanekawa, though.

Yes, I'm aware.

The issue with Black Hanekawa is that she came out, and was therefore necessary. If Tsubasa herself was more conscious of her own feelings and openly admitted to them, she would be less stressed. Because Tsubasa doesn't know the cause of her own stress until after the fact, then she can't deal with her own problems. If she isn't aware of the cause of her stress, then she can't alleviate it, therefore Black Hanekawa is necessary. It does not matter what the problem is.

Black Hanekawa isn't a good thing either, since we all know how she tends to solve Tsubasa's problems.