The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll [2006 TV ep. 13]

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

If you alter even slightly the physical constants of the universe, most artifacts or entities become impossible (atoms collapse, molecules are unable to form, etc). Even "life as we don't know it" would be impossible. During the Big Bang, it seems that many choices were possible (at least according to the math).

I know what you are on about, but the fact remains. You can't determine something you can't imagine, to be impossible. Math exists as models to explain and predict things that we could detect, but they get less useful or accurate as more unknowns and assumptions were added.

Using my lottery analogy, you can help predict the manner in which a particular lottery result is obtained by checking the single winning set of numbers. But there is only so much you can guess before everything becomes random hunches. After all, how many balls are used in the lottery? If 7 balls are used for a 7 number lottery, the odds to win is much greater than having 3000 unique balls used for a 7 number lottery. Yet, we only have a single set of numbers to work with (like we only have a single universe to work with).
Sure, we can assume from the numbers on the winning set that there isn't more than 50 balls, especially if none of the numbers in the winning set is over 50. But that's only an assumption, and doesn't mean there isn't 3000 balls in the draw. In the same way, we can assume there are only a narrow parameter in which life could exist, but that's only a guess; math can go far, but not far enough.


There may very well be more than one way to create a universe, but all we've got is the one we are dwelling in. Just because there is difficulty imagining something that doesn't exist, doesn't mean it can't exist. This is a very common misconception for all humans; we are supposedly so knowledgeable, that we know everything, even for things that we don't know. (ironically, religion isn't free from this; faith is used in just the same way by people to make themselves feel smarter. It's so much harder to figure out gravity than just say God pushes the celestial bodies around personally with His hands.)

[Noppapana]

god ... this discussion is too difficult to understand
anyways after watching this ep, I feel sorry for Haruhi
She tried her best to get close to Kyon but it had failed everytime
and she was dissapointed time after time

Kyon is really baka baka
Somehow i cant blame Kyon for this. He only sees Haruhi as a classmate no more and no less. He is only interested in Mikuru.

[Jacalee]

Originally Posted by Noppapana

I feel sorry for Haruhi
She tried her best to get close to Kyon but it had failed everytime
and she was dissapointed time after time

= =
I don't think so.

This woman is straightforward. If she feels unhappy on kyon she will show her displeasure immediately.

Haruhi's disappointment just becauce she eventually can't find abnormal things out from surrounding, IMO.

[FatPianoBoy]

... :Ignores the overanalytical ramblings:

Originally Posted by Noppapana

Somehow i cant blame Kyon for this. He only sees Haruhi as a classmate no more and no less. He is only interested in Mikuru.

More evidence of Kyonism, methinks.


If no one's used the term 'Kyonism' before, then I trademark it right here and now.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I know what you are on about, but the fact remains. You can't determine something you can't imagine, to be impossible. Math exists as models to explain and predict things that we could detect, but they get less useful or accurate as more unknowns and assumptions were added.

Using my lottery analogy, you can help predict the manner in which a particular lottery result is obtained by checking the single winning set of numbers. But there is only so much you can guess before everything becomes random hunches. After all, how many balls are used in the lottery? If 7 balls are used for a 7 number lottery, the odds to win is much greater than having 3000 unique balls used for a 7 number lottery. Yet, we only have a single set of numbers to work with (like we only have a single universe to work with).
Sure, we can assume from the numbers on the winning set that there isn't more than 50 balls, especially if none of the numbers in the winning set is over 50. But that's only an assumption, and doesn't mean there isn't 3000 balls in the draw. In the same way, we can assume there are only a narrow parameter in which life could exist, but that's only a guess; math can go far, but not far enough.


There may very well be more than one way to create a universe, but all we've got is the one we are dwelling in. Just because there is difficulty imagining something that doesn't exist, doesn't mean it can't exist. This is a very common misconception for all humans; we are supposedly so knowledgeable, that we know everything, even for things that we don't know. (ironically, religion isn't free from this; faith is used in just the same way by people to make themselves feel smarter. It's so much harder to figure out gravity than just say God pushes the celestial bodies around personally with His hands.)

There was a book my friend let me read one time in a lecture we were both really bored in, Flatland I believe it was called. Anyway the book dealt with the subject of how a being existing on a 2D plane was trying to explain to us what its like to live in a 2D plane of existance, and then one day a 3D object visits his world of Flatland and he can't see or prove it is a 3D object because all he sees is a straight line and has only the objects (I believe it was a sphere) word to go on. Then I believe the 3D object starts explaining to him what its like to live in a 3D world and it blows his mind since he can't comprehend it until he visits the third dimension himself. The book basically challenges us to try and imagine other dimensions which we can't see or comprehend and it was pretty interesting for the 50 minutes I got to sit and read it for. Anyway I recommend this book since it was an interesting read even though I never finished it. It also has social elements to it as well, here's a wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

There was a book my friend let me read one time in a lecture we were both really bored in, Flatland I believe it was called. Anyway the book dealt with the subject of how a being existing on a 2D plane was trying to explain to us what its like to live in a 2D plane of existance, and then one day a 3D object visits his world of Flatland and he can't see or prove it is a 3D object because all he sees is a straight line and has only the objects (I believe it was a sphere) word to go on. Then I believe the 3D object starts explaining to him what its like to live in a 3D world and it blows his mind since he can't comprehend it until he visits the third dimension himself. The book basically challenges us to try and imagine other dimensions which we can't see or comprehend and it was pretty interesting for the 50 minutes I got to sit and read it for. Anyway I recommend this book since it was an interesting read even though I never finished it. It also has social elements to it as well, here's a wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

I have not read the book, but have indeed heard about it in the past.

Your example is almost essential to the understanding of why any predictions on the options of an universe is flawed; we can't dismiss a universe as uninhabitable just because we don't think it can support life.

[Noppapana]

Originally Posted by Jacalee

= =
I don't think so.

This woman is straightforward. If she feels unhappy on kyon she will show her displeasure immediately.

Haruhi's disappointment just becauce she eventually can't find abnormal things out from surrounding, IMO.

if she was so straightforward, why doesnt she confess her feelings to Kyon ?
She can also be dissapointed in other ppl like in episode 4

More evidence of Kyonism, methinks.


If no one's used the term 'Kyonism' before, then I trademark it right here and now.

what do you mean with Kyonism ?

[Zangetsu]

is this truly the last ep?

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Zangetsu

is this truly the last ep?

All sources indicate that episode 14 = last episode.

[Orchunter226]

Originally Posted by Noppapana

if she was so straightforward, why doesnt she confess her feelings to Kyon ?

I think, that she is having trouble admitting the feelings to herself as well.

[Vexx]

<sigh> if you can't even form atoms because the nuclear force is too strong or structural artifacts are impossible because pi is off a bit, there's simply no material on which to build life, even organized energy fields are impossible. Life can take on many forms, non-carbon, energry, blahblah --- but there are some basic constraints on any organizing principles that require physical constants be within certain ranges.

The book Flatland also contained the story of how the 2-d creature used the evidence he had to *predict* and *surmise* the nature of 3-space based on the indirect evidence he had... just like we're able to surmise the nature of spacetime from our indirect observations.

That means there may be some amazing variations on *life* in many sorts of universes, a much smaller subset of them may include self-aware life and even fewer may include life which has acheived some form of critical thinking skills outside of eat, poop, and mate. But some universes simply will be dead on arrival.

I really suggest you read more theoretical physics and examine the reasoning before you call it flawed. Or at least stand out of arm's reach of physicists.

[panzerfan]

Anthropic principle's major criticism with its truist stance basically would be a way to look at Vallen Chaos Valiant said...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

we can't dismiss a universe as uninhabitable just because we don't think it can support life.

Going to Vexx's original points on the observer requirement. I thought that with waveform collapse we're just randoming seeing 1 of the the possibilities when we, in Vexx's example, look at the moon. All possibilities should be retained if nobody takes a 'peek-a-boo' at the cat.

Itsuki's argument would be waveform collapse leading to this 1 set of solution that we human take as axioms of the universe. Of course that's only one way to look at it... as Vexx mentioned, if it's decoherence model which leads to the impression of waveform collapse, we will see superposition of multiple states...

Drake equation is a 'guesstimate' but the study of quantum mechanic focuses on in the Drake application, whether if extraterrestrial life is a possible state for the system (we can leave the probability out that as that is what Drake equation does....

I suppose it's safe to say that observation is either 1 of the realities or that it is the part of the picture in reality that we actually can make sense of (and the remaining reality are just noise to us... basically Bohm model)

(God this sounds like ontology doesn't it... and there goes any shred of ease of reading comprehension, as most quantum discussions are...)

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

(God this sounds like ontology doesn't it... and there goes any shred of ease of reading comprehension, as most quantum discussions are...)

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

... :Ignores the overanalytical ramblings:

Perhaps for the reasons above any more of this talk should move to the ontology thread...

btw, has there been any branch of philosphy and quantum mechanics that we haven't talked about yet?

[Vexx]

Agreed, we've strayed from the topic of this thread somewhat --- though we did start off discussing the Anthropic Principle (or speculation if that sounds better) which comprises a significant part of the episode. Darn that Itsuki....

[Lost]

Gah. Gah.

No, please don't move anything to the Ontology thread, some of what was discussed is essential to understanding Itsuki's statement on that removal of constants.

I could barely follow along with it; and due to the lack of my knowledge the only thing I can agree/disagree with is:

Yes, the fact that we can't imagine how something might be, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I like that bringing up of Flathand, fits the discussion very well. My modest example: angels/divine forms ~ "heaven; God", what have you. I often wondered what their bodies are like; their "physiologies" (sp), in a sense. I have no idea what their bodies/physiologies might be like; and I dont think I could even come close to imagining it - it may be in ways I could never think of, yet that does not mean they might not exist. Same would go for alien life on other planets.

And VCV, I have to object to your generalization of religion and faith.

Anyhow, to bring this back to the anime at hand; (and I'm only realizing this after reading thru that discussion - so its not all useless Jk) so I guess Koizumi brought up the constants thing to put force on his believe that Haruhi created the Universe. It could not come by chance, but it had to appear by her sentient wishing.

But the part bugging me is that Haruhi is a part of the Universe. If it didnt exist before her, then where was SHE in the first place, to have wished a Universe into existance. A probable answer would be on a different plane/dimension/level, where another Universe (one that we can't imagine; yet doesnt mean it doesnt exist) already exists.

[Lost]

Btw, this helped me understand a little bit of Schrodinger's cat. I will try to read up on the topic.

[Prodigious]

Originally Posted by Vexx

<sigh> if you can't even form atoms because the nuclear force is too strong or structural artifacts are impossible because pi is off a bit, there's simply no material on which to build life, even organized energy fields are impossible. Life can take on many forms, non-carbon, energry, blahblah --- but there are some basic constraints on any organizing principles that require physical constants be within certain ranges.

The book Flatland also contained the story of how the 2-d creature used the evidence he had to *predict* and *surmise* the nature of 3-space based on the indirect evidence he had... just like we're able to surmise the nature of spacetime from our indirect observations.

That means there may be some amazing variations on *life* in many sorts of universes, a much smaller subset of them may include self-aware life and even fewer may include life which has acheived some form of critical thinking skills outside of eat, poop, and mate. But some universes simply will be dead on arrival.

I really suggest you read more theoretical physics and examine the reasoning before you call it flawed. Or at least stand out of arm's reach of physicists.

It's possible for physical components to exist in a different capacity. Yes, if physical constants were changed even slightly, elementary particles as we know them would not be able to form larger components, or even exist. However, who is to say that there couldn't be a completely different set of particles and interactions which would allow for a universe just as rich and complex as this but fundamentally(in every sense of the word) different? Would it be a rare occurence for a bunch of haphazard laws to harmonize and create a universe that can support life? Sure, but we exist don't we?

Hell even the arrow of time is a something which could have just as easily been set in reverse during the big bang. It is difficult for human beings to imagine a universe where people are born from their graves, die in the womb, and a fried omlette turns into an egg, but it that is because we are accustomed to the way things are in our realm of existence, where the cause leads to an effect and we gain memories from the past.

[Lost]

^ Nice points, again reinforces the point that we cannot limit existence to the confines of our perception and imagination.

Originally Posted by Prodigious

Would it be a rare occurence for a bunch of haphazard laws to harmonize and create a universe that can support life? Sure, but we exist don't we?

Thats the thing I think Itsuki is trying to point at. (To him) It would be too rare for the laws to not only harmonize, but to be designed in the first place, by chance. Enter, Haruhi; unconscious designer of that Universe; unconscious God.

[arias]

Originally Posted by Lost

Btw, this helped me understand a little bit of Schrodinger's cat. I will try to read up on the topic.

Actually, alot of the more advanced physics "problems" like Schroedinger's cat and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle are pretty much domains that go into philosophy.. some of the proposed "solutions" to them by physicists are rather good, but others are hopelessly naive. There should be more participation in it from the philosophers, but I figure not many of them are well educated in physics and don't want to seem to be stretching it..

[panzerfan]

Well it has been noted that physicists oftentime ended up being philosophers.

Although... we should be careful. For example, Einstein's writing of relativity isn't equal to relativism which has no such belief as the existence of a central axiom to be a point of reference (speed of light is unchanging and absolute axiom) yet some would intermix the two... ( for example, the velocity to all things that move relative to an observer and time is relative between observers depending on their relative velocity to each other and to the speed of light) Classical relativism would state that your speed is absolute to yourself and my judgement on your speed is just as valid.

*Quantum mechanic's closer to relativism as things are not deterministic and very depending on the POV. I suppose different waveform collapses would be observed by different observers as they watch an event such as... look up at the moon due to the various states that can be picked out of the bag.

Somebody like Einstein might enjoy the Bohm interpretation more given its more deterministic nature and... that wave are particles that exists in a decoherent state (so it's there and it's not at the same time to us the observers). How decoherence ties in with Hilbert space is something that is beyond me as a layman though...