Fate/Zero - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by TheDrifter

damn blonde hair, red eye, golden armor punk has to trick his student to kill him.

Gilgamesh isn't tricking Kotomine in any way. If anything he's giving him free therapy.

Kotomine's the one who's been forcefully tricking himself all his life and suffering as a result. Gil is merely attempting to free him from said suffering.

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Thess

I did laugh of how they chop and cut stuff pertaining his obsession with Saber while focus on his TEMPTATION OF KOTOMINE.

Kirei is certainly more tasty than Saber, no homo.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by fertygo

Kirei is certainly more tasty than Saber, no homo.

Jouji Nakata's voice is a treasure beyond measure.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

There is a thread for that.

Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Anime-only Viewers)

I know. My point is that this thread shouldn't have had to exist in the first place. It should have been the opposite: special thread for F/Z-only watchers, regular episodes threads for everybody else (i.e, those who are doing it right). It seems only natural to me to be able to talk about the original work in a thread about its "sequel".

...not that it would have solved everything anyway since spoilers from the VN would still be forbidden, and the route that sheds the most light on you-know-who's personality happens to be the one that has yet to be adapted into anime. Ignore me.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

He can reset them. So it's infinite regardless.

That would take time and energy. Alexander's army isn't just standing around waiting for him to do so. As stated, they are all Servants, not just mere mooks. In fact, even though Kotomine evaluated it to be unclassifiable and about the same rank as Gate of Babylon, it is in fact higher-it's an EX ranked Noble Phantasm, where as Gate of Babylon is E ~ A++

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Agreed. And it's not just this episode. Not being able to talk about F/SN is crippling the discussions. Furthermore, Fate/Zero is a prequel that was written long after Fate/Stay Night. It matters little that F/Z chronologically takes place before events of F/SN, it was written as a "prequel to F/SN", it's not F/SN that was written as a "sequel to F/Z"; that makes a big difference. You are clearly expected to be familiar with F/SN. Hell, F/Z has more spoilers for F/SN than the opposite, one of the biggest secret of the game has been casually spoiled already. The correct order to read/watch the two series is F/SN -> F/Z, and therefore the spoiler policy should treat F/Z as the sequel (a prequel is a sequel). Forbidding F/SN spoilers in F/Z is as nonsensical as forbidding people to talk about the first season of a show in the thread for the second season.

I completely and strongly agree.

To me, it would be like having a forum for discussion on the Star Wars Prequels in which it was considered spoilerrific and unacceptable to reference events from the original Star Wars trilogy. In my opinion that's pretty nonsensical, and I can't imagine many Star Wars fans being cool with that. It does indeed limit discussions to a considerable degree, as a lot of the fun of discussing/watching prequels is in trying to determine how it relates back to the characters and events in the original story.

Talking about Fate/Stay Night the anime on Fate/Zero episode threads should be no different than talking about Shana seasons 1 and 2 on a Shana III episode thread, imo. In-canon chronology is not what is important here, it's the order that the series were produced in and the order in which they're intended to be watched in.

[Klashikari]

The decision was mostly done because:
1) the fanbase itself is prone to blurt spoiler -out- of the anime bonds, which is the critical part (even with the current spoiler guidelines applied, incidents still occur... like right now).
2) The definition of spoiler is plainly anything related to future event, as in chronologically in the plot, regardless of the release date
3) The series may have been aimed to FSN fans in general, that doesn't stop newcomers to watch the show without any FSN knowledge
4) allowing discussion to extend to FSN will definitely make discussions going through the scope of an episode/franchise, to the point it will derail the discussion focus (which happened already).

Really, if you think you -need- to discuss FSN along with the current events, then as suggested already, an anime and game thread are available for such purpose. Claiming that we could create a "anime only" thread is flawed argument considering the purpose of the forum by itself, and doing the opposite doesn't hinder FSN fans either.

Case is closed. Move on.
If you wish to continue on this subject, please PM me instead.

[Master_Yoma]

Wasnt by now a hero or 2 in Stay Night have been defeated by now just so much talking

[Vicious108]

Stay Night was also a Visual Novel with three different routes and thus could afford to sacrifice some of its characters in early deaths, since they still had two more routes to get the proper exposure and development. Whereas Zero is a Light Novel with only one single and definitive version of its war, so it can't afford to off its characters that quickly and easily. And even then, one hero was indeed defeated just last episode.

And Stay Night had just as much talking. Though it's not like that type of complaint is even worth addressing any more at this juncture. We've reached the halfway point in the story, and anyone who came into F/Z expecting popcorn entertainment filled to the brim with naught but mindless action has surely had sufficient time and exposure already to realise they've gotten into this show with all the wrong preconceived notions and false pretences.

[Marik]

Instead of creating episodes of such long discussions. They could show us the past of the other servants. I guess It would be more interesting.


One question: When I saw the house where Saber and her master went I thought that would be the same house where Shirou and Emiya lived together, isn't it?

[Triple_R]

I want to defend Demi Soda and Master Yoma just briefly here.

Part of the appeal of an anime show like Fate/Zero (or Fate/Stay Night) for at least some viewers is its "survival game" aspect.

Loads of people love survival games, or more broadly speaking, mass competitions where competitors are eliminated at a steady pace until we get down to a showdown between two remaining competitors. Many people love shows like this, shows like Survivor and American Idol. A lot of the simple fun of these types of shows is watching competitors get eliminated at a steady pace, giving the show a sense of consistent momentum, which makes it feel like important events are happening on the show each and every week (if nothing else there's typically one weekly elimination).

As I watch Fate/Zero, I know in the back of my mind that at least six of these Master/Servant pairs have to be eliminated from the competition, just like when I watch Survivor I know that all but one of the competitors has to be eliminated from that competition. With this being in the back of my mind, I'm eager to know who gets eliminated, and in what order, and by which other competitor's hand. As I focus on the Holy Grail competition itself, that's where a lot of the excitement comes from for me, being on the edge of my seat and eager to know which competitors will be the first to go down and which ones will survive the longest. With 6 eliminations to be made over 26 episodes, I would have kind of liked to have had 2 or 3 by now.

In other words, I would have preferred to have known more about this "order of elimination" by this point in the anime. I would have liked for there to be a sense of a lot happening in the Holy Grail competition itself by having there be more "results" to go by at this juncture of the anime.

I want to be clear here that this isn't because I have an overwhelming desire to see blood and gore for the sake of blood and gore. No, I'd like for there to be more eliminations by this point in the Fate/Zero narrative simply for the same reason I wouldn't want to wait several weeks before seeing any eliminations on Survivor, because it's simply exciting and builds up momentum to watch a mass competition where results are changing and updating at a steady pace due to eliminations coming at regular intervals.

Ultimately, I think this is where a lot of Demi Soda and Master_Yoma's criticisms are arising from.


Now, I completely respect that for those familiar with the Fate/Zero light novel this is a total non-issue, because they already know what the order of eliminations is going to be.

But for many of us who are anime-only viewers, wanting to see some results come in for this wondrous survival game known as the Holy Grail War is part of what we're looking for on a week-by-week basis. So to have only one elimination at this point in the anime is a bit disappointing for us.

It's no big deal for me, as there are many other reasons why I'm watching the show, but it is a mild disappointment, and so I see where Demi Soda and Master_Yoma are coming from.

I still think this anime is excellent overall, though.

[Vicious108]

Yet because there haven't been that many eliminations thus far and instead the series has taken the time to properly establish and develop all of its participants, said eliminations will be much more viscerally effective once they do take place. Would you really rather have early eliminations of characters you only marginally care about over later eliminations of fully fleshed out ones that you've come to truly know and care for as individuals?

The focus of Fate/Zero's narrative is Kiritsugu, alongside Saber and Irisviel, and Kotomine's spiritual journeys throughout the war. Caster or Lancer dying, which some people seem to want to see so badly, is nowhere near as relevant to that as the stuff that went down in this episode. Kotomine's development here is the kind of important event that people generally crave for, yet because it is a "merely" intellectual one and doesn't involve swords clashing and sparks flying and lives being lost, the episode is deemed "uneventful". When Kotomine's struggles in this episode are a much more relevant event to the core of F/Z's story than Ryunosuke and Bluebeard biting the dust could ever hope to be. But alas, people walk into this show with misguided priorities and the complaints seen this week or in any other with an episode devoid of action are the result.

And just for the record, I'm not familiar with the Fate/Zero Light Novels at all, yet the lack of eliminations doesn't detract from the show one bit as far as I'm concerned. The quantity of character deaths is in no way an inherent indicator of progress in a narrative, much less an indicator of its quality.

[Kallen4life]

Last Temptation of Kotomine Kirei


Gil you sly dawg

[Lumir]

Originally Posted by Moekou

Oho, Gate of Babylon is far from unlimited. He's not firing generic blades; he's firing legendary relics-and there's a limited number he has. It's quality over quantity.

Any weapon before and during his time can be considered a weapon he owns. That includes any weapon anyone felt was legendary/magical/powerful in anyway from children stories, to the more popular legends such as excalibur. For all the treasures of the world belonged to him during his time. And like someone else said he can reset them, as well as fire them at a machine gun pace, activate each ones special ability, not to mention fire a great amount of them at the same time.

You have a legendary army? Well say hello to an infinite amount of blades that can fire in great numbers, each with unique powers/abilities. I could see Gil mowing down the entire army if he got serious. And honestly I could see him destroying berserker as well depending on how wide he can open the gate, no matter how fast Zerker is, the numbers will outweigh his speed, not to mention Gil probably can fire the gate and use a speacial weapons ability at the same time (aka EE). OFC this all depends on the amount of mana available to him =).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Last Temptation of Kotomine Kirei


Gil you sly dawg

Watching Carnival Phantasm with his terror of somebody starting to resemble Kotomine and him being the reason here in Fate Zero makes it all the more funny.

[klare]

i find the converesation interesting, especially seeing how Kirei turning from a mere pawn into something else, and King Gil is fun to watch too

however it is sad to see the condition Iris is in...

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by Lumir

Any weapon before and during his time can be considered a weapon he owns. That includes any weapon anyone felt was legendary/magical/powerful in anyway from children stories, to the more popular legends such as excalibur. For all the treasures of the world belonged to him during his time. And like someone else said he can reset them, as well as fire them at a machine gun pace, activate each ones special ability, not to mention fire a great amount of them at the same time.

You have a legendary army? Well say hello to an infinite amount of blades that can fire in great numbers, each with unique powers/abilities. I could see Gil mowing down the entire army if he got serious. And honestly I could see him destroying berserker as well depending on how wide he can open the gate, no matter how fast Zerker is, the numbers will outweigh his speed, not to mention Gil probably can fire the gate and use a speacial weapons ability at the same time (aka EE). OFC this all depends on the amount of mana available to him =).

Well, he has many weapons but not an infinite number, and gathering them again takes a bit of time, its not instant. He has either the prototype or even the original NP depending on cases, but he is an owner not a wielder. Aside the NPs with inherent abilities (ex: a fire weapon), he cant use any NP (sans certains NPs which are not many) aside using them as throwing weapons.

Gate of Babylon is Anti-Army but when they said that they refered to a numerical target, they dont use a frigging servant army as a measure, and Iskander minions are far too powerful and numerous to be downed easily before they reach him in melee and hack him into tiny pieces.

Also Gate of Babylon has activation time before firing akin to loading a gun (you see it on Gil vs Zerker) so no matter it has unlimited NPs, theres a limit on how much it can fire after each barrage.

The situation is akin to an army of archers vs a infantery army: yes the archers can deal quite a bit of pain until the enemy army reaches them, then they are screwed since their close combat skills and equip are nowhere as good as the infantery ones

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Part of the appeal of an anime show like Fate/Zero (or Fate/Stay Night) for at least some viewers is its "survival game" aspect.

For some reason that reminds me of the people who wants to see the death clock in Madoka.

Also apparently that's one of the reasons why some people prefer Mirai Nikki this season . It's a difference between popcorn manga entertainment and one adapted from (light) novels.


For some reason I cannot imagine the scene of Kiritsugu going to fast food outlets to buy burgers with that expression.

[Kallen4life]

I would like to state that Word of God confirmed serious!Gil, not holding the idiot arragoncy ball and using all of his skills to their fullest on any necessary enemy, could solo both 4-th & 5-th wars in an hour each .. although I presume this means consecutive confrontations with each servant mano a mano, not Gil vs all 6

stil .. Gil is likely the single strongest entity is FSN-verse (not Nasuverse)


and it makes sense, because he IS the oldest (so he SHOULD be the strongest) .. that and Ea can one-shot practically anything



his arrogancy and underestimating holds back his full power immensely, much more then some realise

Also Gate of Babylon has activation time before firing akin to loading a gun (you see it on Gil vs Zerker) so no matter it has unlimited NPs, theres a limit on how much it can fire after each barrage.

he can fire much more simultaneously then he showed against Berserker though .. he even started expanding it before Tokiomi cock-blocked him


also I think GoB can spawn them anywhere, so can he can attack from all angles on all sides 360 degrees .. that requires mental effort though and mongrels aren't worthy of it

[Theorder14]

i just realized. but did any1 else notice who that person saber pierced was in the ending?