2013-07-28, 05:48 | Link #2081 |
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Some of his statements like character designer names, mangakas, when Yakaman left Kyoto Animation are indeed fact. But anything from "Kyoani is the best studio in XYZ field to, X studio copied K-on or person Y is a big fan of K-on and inspired Sora no Woto to being like K-on is all his opinion, yet he claims it as fact. So anything descriptive or subjective is opinion. On top of that he claims that anything that disagrees with his view are an opinion.
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2013-07-28, 06:15 | Link #2082 | |||||
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Script doesn't really matter much. For me it's even lower than animation and photography, perhaps just ahead of the premise in terms of importance to a work's merit. Of course it has to be as good as possible, like every single aspect of the production, but it isn't fundamental to its success. The Ghost in the Shell films should prove this well, as even Oshii has stated that he chose all the philosophical quotes to make an argument about the irrelevance of dialogue in film. I'd say it worked, would you? Quote:
I don't agree with talking of them as a studio in terms of scripting, because it comes down to the writer involved. Yoshida dun goofed in Tamako Market? Maybe, she can do better certainly, but it's not Kyoani's fault as an animation studio if she and Yamada couldn't reach their best potential. Same for Kigami and Munto (Kigami isn't even a proper writer, he hasn't done any of that since), and besides the fact I think Free! is well-enough scripted, the hypothetical blame falls on Masahiro Yokotani and Hiroko Utsumi, not on the studio as a whole. Quote:
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Besides that, the second season is so much better directed, written and animated it's not even a contest. I hardly remember K-On! nowadays, but K-On!! is another story entirely. Quote:
I don't see why innovation is important at all here. What makes K-On!! good is that it's better made than all of the others, and any point and theme it might share comes across better, and with more power, because the show is just better as film. I don't see why disagreeing with the worldview forwarded by a work of fiction must necessarily equate to disliking the work as a piece of art. I can appreciate K-On!! and at the same time realize the nostalgia-coloured treatment of high school is dumb (well, maybe not dumb, but rooted in completely different cultural values that I can't fully identify with). |
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2013-07-28, 07:05 | Link #2083 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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As for my rejection of spring of youth shows, have you ever stopped to think just how many shows go for this theme? It's not like there's a shortage of stories with different themes that need animating, but KyoAni seems hellbent on not just picking existing seishun stories, even though there's an abundance of them, but also developing them in house. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit here, but it's not like they're incapable of producing other genres. They just pick the same genre ... over and over again. |
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2013-07-28, 10:58 | Link #2084 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Regarding your second claim, it couldn't be more wrong. Time and budget compliment artistry, but they can only make something more refined- the spark that I look for, the thing that draws me in to any film lies in the talent of the people creating the work. This is why I couldn't care less about cutting edge FX and CG rendering technologies in generic Hollywood blockbusters or AAA games. They are not creative endeavors, they are grunt work. Necessary grunt work, of course, but by itself it has no substance. As for "art", I don't say that as a term of approval. There can be bad art and good art, and art and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive. I was just using it as a descriptor, but I guess the baggage of the term is too much so I should have clarified. Last edited by Warm Mist; 2013-07-28 at 13:54. |
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2013-07-28, 11:22 | Link #2085 | |||||
Also a Lolicon
Join Date: Apr 2010
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As for directing and scripting. KyoAni is pretty good at laying out their episodes. They are good at everything related to presenting the content. If you think hard enough, their shows feel engineered for maximum moe/feels/etc. Quote:
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So let's, for the sake of discussion, say KyoAni anime are engineering works rather than artistic ones, and those are mutually exclusive. What's wrong with that? I watch and buy anime because I want feels/moe/etc. If KyoAni is methodically trying to extract maximum feels/moe/etc. from every episode, I would be delighted. They are giving me my money's worth. Of course, I'm another one of those people that value execution in my anime. Quote:
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2013-07-28, 11:46 | Link #2086 | ||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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From my pov, every time kyoani has produced an original or near original work (like chuunibyou), they have been particularly poor. Quote:
K-ON is not a franchise in general I would use as a good example of anything great in the anime industry. A show that uses two beach episodes in the same season is just embarrassing. The movie was also one of the most pointless things I ever watched. Quote:
And special effects are not a form of expression? They both aim for the same things, to bring to life a production. Different types of methods, same end goal.
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2013-07-28, 12:10 | Link #2087 | ||
Also a Lolicon
Join Date: Apr 2010
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KyoAni tends to animate what they are told to animate. They are taking more control of their work. I haven't been familiar with a KyoAni source recently, but if you still aren't impressed, but I'm assuming KyoAni is choosing stuff to animate that they like, maybe you just don't like what KyoAni thinks are good sources that they want to animate.
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If you look at anime as entertainment, K-On!/!! is a very good example of great anime. Of course if you try to look at it as art, we can sit here arguing forever. |
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2013-07-28, 12:18 | Link #2088 | |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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2013-07-28, 12:25 | Link #2089 | |
On a mission
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The thing is, one can state all facts yet come out as lying. This is possible by omission. Consider that production values and design quality are objective. They are objective to some degree. You can tell who did it, when they did it, and how much they spent on it. But then these are really broad categories. Objective design quality? You mean like consistency? Sure, and then the ultimate goal is to provide aesthetic appeal, which is oh shit, subjective. I could indeed be told of how many frames the animation was, and what kind of technology was used. These tend to lay out criteria that this studio does put more into it than others. Nobody's going to claim that fucking DEEN does a better job. But of what objective formula is used here? One that critics and students of art over all these centuries haven't agreed in unison here, but random people on the internet have come up with? See, the problem with this is that this magic formula holds no self-accountability. They are more rooted in logic than something stupid like my pie charts, but once we get to the point of the source, the creator defending their self-picked criteria will devolve into circular logic, if people can't agree on it. The weight placed on certain criteria is also an issue, as it devolves into checklist reviews which don't work for this medium at all. For those that don't want to listen to this pretentious asshole go on and on, here's a simplified version. There are certain aspects of an animation that can be measured. Obviously, things like animation are inherent to animation. These are the only things worthy of discussion, because all other things can be disputed, thus we can only establish these things as truth. But that doesn't lead to any meaningful discussion. This site isn't an encyclopedia or a fact sheet. The purpose of animation is to provide an experience. (Otherwise why sell it?) If A were quantifiable and B were subjective and C were the final picture of the anime. A+B=C It is fine to say, and people often confuse B = C. That is wrong. But it is also nonsensical to claim that A=C, or that A > B This is a masterful tactic that is very useful for trolling, but I personally don't use it. I think it's a very second rate kind of thinking that doesn't allow one to improve. Needless to say, I have a huge disdain for people that try to enforce objectivity on the spot in discussions like these. It carries a higher level of arrogance then I could possibly muster. The thing is, just because a point is biased or lacks information, it's fair game to point that out. However, that itself cannot discredit a point. Which is why when you say "That's just your opinion", it's simply a truism that has no value. Your keyboard hates you for wasting its lifespan with it. But you may ask "How do you win?" if you can't herp derp steamroll by tossing magical sand and disintegrating your opponent's argument? Of course, one would miss the point. Someone doesn't have to be wrong.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-07-28 at 12:49. |
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2013-07-28, 12:29 | Link #2090 |
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This is the crux of the issue, I think.
How many KyoAni shows have a non-high school setting? How many are sci-fi? How many are fantasy? How many are magical girl? How many are mecha? How many are darker-themed, like a Gen Urobuchi-wrote work? How many are like, say, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Fist of the North Star? And there's plenty of well-selling anime shows that fit into one or more of the above categories, so the sales argument alone is not particularly compelling. It's true that KyoAni is now doing much more anime original work, but none of it goes considerably outside of its Iyashikei-based comfort zone. Free! has a different target demographic, but it has a fair bit of that Iyashikei feel to it. KyoAni does consistently good work when it comes to directing, animating, and what you could call "production values". But content-wise, it doesn't show much range or variety. And given how long its been around for, and given how it now even has some real choice in determining its content (since its doing more anime original works), that's a bit disappointing. If Iyashikei is your big thing, then obviously this isn't going to bother you much. However, range and variety is something that's valued in an artist. By extension, the lack of such range and variety is something worthy of criticism after awhile.
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2013-07-28, 12:57 | Link #2091 | |
On a mission
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Of all this, it might say though that Kyoani isn't the end all and be all of everything anime, but that they are extremely good at what they do. It's not unreasonable to say this, and expect more, though I feel this has gotten blown out of proportion. *I would watch it.
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2013-07-28, 13:06 | Link #2092 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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KyoAni has been in the habit of doing all those kinds of shows within their standard style show. There be a part of an episode that does magical girl. Part that does mecha. Part that does sci-fi...they do a lot of that actually. Part that does fantasy. Part that does darker themes (until the punchline is dropped). Most of those they pulled in Nichijou.
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2013-07-28, 13:15 | Link #2093 | |
On a mission
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In fact, Haruhi was a show that seemed to require many, and sudden genre changes of which they all had to do, ranging from sci-fi to your typical comedy antics. I think that in itself shows a lot. The other thing I feel is that I don't feel most of their shows are the same even if they have the style is distinct. Haruhi, Lucky Star, and something like Hyouka or the Key stuff are very different shows. The only thing in common is that they have some moe thing in high school going on, but that would be saying like that all moe shows are the same shit, which is fun to say, but not necessarily true.
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2013-07-28, 13:31 | Link #2094 | |
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 33
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2013-07-28, 13:48 | Link #2095 | |||||
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Kyoani has great directors. Takemoto proved himself with Hyouka, but what's important is that most of their storyboarders are above average and know their basics extremely well. Kyoani shows just communicate with the audience more fluidly than 90% of the things airing in any given season, and that's thanks to direction. Quote:
That's primarily the job of the director in a visual medium like this. The script is little more than a skeleton in this regard. It will play a part in shaping the storyboards, but these are the integral element and not the script This is what the script can claim for itself, but again I insist that it's not very relevant to the quality of a film. Quote:
The movie is basically another episode with an alternate viewpoint of the ending, I don't see how that's detrimental when it's also the best instance of the show. Quote:
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2013-07-28, 15:07 | Link #2096 | |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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It is slightly more than that. They tend to go all out on these sorts of things. Making one want them to actually do those as a full show.
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2013-07-28, 18:03 | Link #2097 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Man, now I'm kind of regretting that I've fallen way behind on Free! due to course work. So much drama!!!
Anyway, my take on KyoAni's recent works: Enjoyed but was underwhelmed by: Nichijou, Chuunibyou, Tamako Market No qualms about: K-On! franchise. For whatever reason, I connected with the cast of K-On much better than the aforementioned shows. A very charismatic little piece that KyoAni improved throughout its run. Extremely Impressed by: Hyouka - one of the best shows of recent memory. I'd have to look all the way back to Haruhi 2006 and Kanon 2006 to find a KyoAni show that I like as much. While it's a mixed record overall, what KyoAni did with Hyouka and the later parts of K-On impressed me so much I can't help but gush about them. As for the "do they do the same thing" debate - I'm a long time moe fan so of course I'm strongly inclined towards noticing the variety in their works. Certainly their shows are different enough for me to form different impressions of them and pick and choose favourites.
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2013-07-28, 18:28 | Link #2098 | |
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But Gen did in fact write the first and last episodes of Gargantia, a pretty upbeat anime by his standards. Likewise, it might be nice if KyoAni could do a show like Steins;Gate - A show in a genre that KyoAni hasn't done much of lately, yet with a cast and overall narrative that's not too far off from what KyoAni is used to doing. Or heck, even something like Mai HiME or Nanoha would be a bit different for them. I'm not sure what being a moe fan has to do with "noticing the variety in their works". Moe characters can exist in all sorts of different shows, but by the same token you can have a wide variety of moe character types in a handful of shows all within more or less the same genre. In other words, variety in characters does not translate to genre or setting variety.
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2013-07-28, 19:14 | Link #2099 |
Senior Member
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Don't forget, there's still Kanata no Kyoukai which could be their big action show in the near future! And the possibility of KyoAni doing a series starring sexy cute females doing legitimate fanservicy things...!
(I still want to know what those other "Honorable Mentioned" titles are about as they have more potential of getting an adaptation)
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2013-07-28, 19:15 | Link #2100 | |||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Take a look at the special effects in Life of Pi for example and tell me that film was not artistic. Sorry, this assertion is just absurd.
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