Retro versus Modern Anime

[Sander RX]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Mecha were based on the inspiration and terror technology offers to the modern world.
Shounen were based on the competition martial arts offer.
The transcendence did not happen with elements but with tastes. Technology became so common after a few decades in Japan, that the focus was no longer the tools themselves but their users. It may seem it was as such back then as well but in reality it was more about the power of the machine it offered its users. It later became mostly about the willpower that empowers the machine so it reversed to the other way around. And through shounen, the willpower is giving power to the human body, without a machine other than a body is required.

While there are some similarities and overlapping themes(most of Mecha is aimed at the same demographic as fighting Shounens.),I still can't find myself seeing Mecha as the forefather of fighting Shounens,moreso since I see a much more probable ancestor in the form of some old sports sagas.

[QOUTE] Things were more simple and straightforward in the oldies. This can be seen both as good and bad. "Simple" today means average and boring for most.[/QUOTE]

That's probably why I find things like Riding Bean enjoyable.

Spoiler for Riding Bean:

Infact,I really can't grasp how an OVA feature about a bulletproof man in a supercar that can drive sideways,complete with bombastic car chase sequences in Chicago,can be unenjoyable.

Although,one has to note that there is quite a number of rather complex specimens produced before XXI century.

[roriconfan]

^ Ok then, what if the sentai teams that piloted the robots now are the typical fighting shounen cast?

I will compare what the past can still offer us today, other than historical facts and emotional binding. That is, what pointers can each decade still give to modern anime productions that somehow got forgotten along the way.

Spoiler for wall of text:

The pre-wars era has nothing of interest to offer in titles. Children series are still being made today and they are in color and last more than a few minutes each. So, it is an obsolete era.

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The WW2 era offered some nice made war propaganda films that by today are more pitiful rather than nice to watch because of their inhuman context. In fact, most series of today are anti-war or not one-sided. Thus it is also an obsolete era.

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The 60’s era offered the creation of the basic looks of anime. Which means nothing today as all anime are like that.
It also initiated the first major genres. The sci-fi titles all focus on the dreadful aspect of technology and their better use by the heroes in aiding the world with it. The thing is, the 90’s era did a fine job at presenting that in a far more serious and mature way (example, Ghost in the Shell). It also initiated the mahou shoujo genre, but it also reached new heights in the 90’s (example, Sailor Moon). It also initiated gender confution, which was done much more comically and mature in the 80’s (Ranma ½) and artistically in the 90’s (Utena). As for the first occult/horror titles, they were already obsolete by the 70’s (Devilman).
Thus, even the 60’s have nothing to offer today.

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The 70’s had a burst in sports anime, all of which are quite sub-par by today. Even the best one amongst them, Ashita no Joe, is inferior to the much recent Hajime no Ippo.

Action / adventure also got a kick start with Lupin the Third. It is still an active franchise of today, but it aims too much on middle aged men and doesn’t have story continuity or great visuals to attract younger viewers. I for once prefer One Piece to this one. It is also about good-hearted criminals, selfish and wackos, who by the end of the day just want to have fun, while chased around by the authorities.

Another still active franchise is Doraemon, which never stops making more movies. It is an ok children’s title but Doreamon’s pouch is panacea most of the time and there is too little action to attract the new generation. I’d say Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh got most of the target audience.

The action / horror Devilman managed to keep on top for some years but the bleak times of the 90’s (Vampire Princess Miyu) and the 00’s (Mononoke) produced titles that make it look like a joke.

The super robots and super sentai titles of this era are standard stuff that have been used a billion times in later titles. I’d say the recent Tengen Toppa amasses all the magic of what those titles have to offer in the same package. The Ideon mecha that seems to stand on its own, also feels bad and boring by today and Neon Genesis (series also directed by the same man) is a far more mature and interesting take on the same formula. The first Gundam title actually feels great even today, as most of its remakes in later alternative settings took a far more poser take and lost the initial feeling of drama and anti-war atmosphere.

Historical dramas like Heidi or Candy Candy are still nice to watch today but have little appeal as they feel too simple. Newer viewers prefer action and fantasy along with normal doses of drama. Rose of Versailles has more chances to be liked by more people today, as it has a strong female lead, action, mystery and the renaissance in the background. It is also a fact that there are several later tiles made to have the same backdrop, like The Count of Monte Christo and Le Chevalier D’Eon that look much more interesting, as well as there are many later titles with strong female leads, such as Utena or even Black Lagoon.

Leiji’s space operas are still nice to watch, albeit too bleak and simple for most. I’d say Legend of Galactic Heroes in the 80’s gets all the best parts there.

Cutey Honey is still rather interesting to watch today, albeit fan service and mahou shoujo have been put to death in the later half of 00’s and thus it may feel average to most.

In short, the 70’s have many good titles that are ok to watch even today. But most will probably find them too simple or crude or boring.

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The 80’s happen to have many great titles even by today’s standards.

Takahashi’s comedies, Urusei Yatsura and Ranma ½ are still very good to watch.

Macross and Legend of Galactic Heroes remain amongst the greatest space operas/space adventures of all times. Zeta Gundam is still amongst the best Gundam series. Gunbuster is still quite awesome, rivaled perhaps only by the recent Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann. Votoms may be quite unknown today but remains one of the few realistic mecha on the block. The Transformers are still a breathing franchise, albeit too silly to the most part. Patlabor is almost entirely overlooked and I frankly don’t see why it was so famous in the first place.

Fist of the North Star is still amongst the best action/martial arts and since nobody else dared to copy its formula, is actually quite original. Saint Saiya is still kicking around too but most find it too plain. Dragonball is still the most famous of the fighting shounen.

Record of the Lodoss War is still the best high fantasy.

Barefoot Gen, Grave of the Fireflies, Nausicaa, and Akira are still great angsty movies. Area 88 remains the most realistic airplane dogfight/war drama ever.

City Hunter became obsolete after Cowboy Bebop came along.

Touch and Maison Ikkoku are still nice classics, albeit most would find them too slow and dragged out today.

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There is very little to write about the 90’s as most of its famous titles are still very good for most to watch. If there is something to notice is that viewers in the 00’s want faster plot and better visuals, so many of the 90’s titles may appear slow or with distasteful animation to bother watching. Also, many successful titles are being constantly cloned with better animation (and usually less context), thus it becomes harder to tell if they are worth the trouble or not. Newer viewers for example find it hard to appreciate older Gundams to recent ones, despite the older ones having sometimes better overall cast or plot.
The formula of storytelling has also become more polarized in 00’s, thus now fans demand either a much laid back plot or an extremely well paced and executed one. That was proven by sequels like Slayers and InuYasha, which although they were very successful in the 90’s now they have much less appeal for being seen as half-serious or generally half-extreme. It is also proof that series with lots of filler episodes tend to be dropped by most, thus the old formula of slowing down the story with extra events no longer works either. This is evident at how most 00’s series are 12 or 13 episodes, while in the 90’s and before they were 24 or more. Still, episodic series with high amounts of atmosphere and cinematics still work great.

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I won’t write anything about the 00’s. It’s too early to tell and there is nothing to compare it with, other than past decades, which I already did. Expect an update around 2020.

[Sander RX]

^ Ok then, what if the sentai teams that piloted the robots now are the typical fighting shounen cast?

Those Sentai teams were rag-tag groups of heroes who took on monsters of the week in their titular robot.Meanwhile,a typical Fighter Shounen character is a guy who trains,trains and trains to become the best around and makes friends and rivals along the way,all while kicking evil's ass. The aforementioned is a lot closer to the hard-working sports hero,who trains,trains and trains to become the champion.

That's a nice comprehensive wall of text by the way.

P.S That reminds me,how come there are no "what is in store for us in 10's" speculation threads around?

[roriconfan]

^ But even mecha pilots constantly upgrade their robots with bigger and better swords and armors in order to fight even stronger monsters/robots and fight evil/whatever.

And why would we have a totally unsupported speculation thread? My estimation is that 10's will turn to high budget movie series and OVAs and leave tv series for everything subpar. But my speculation is as good as anyone's.

[bhl88]

2001-2010 would probably be something catering to otakus although there are some catering to the normals.

[Sander RX]

^ But even mecha pilots constantly upgrade their robots with bigger and better swords and armors in order to fight even stronger monsters/robots and fight evil/whatever.

There is a small difference between Phlebotinium-powered midseason military upgrades and Shounen fighter power-ups.Hikaru Ichijo having FAST pack mounted on his VF-1S is a bit different from Goku learning Kaio-ken.

Yes,the similarity is there,but it's quite superficial when compared to old Sports sagas.If I'm correct Ring Ni Kakero even had the trademark main character glutton appetite,or as much I gathered from reading some ANN discussions.

[Sheba]

Yeah, SEED mode is sure different from Sharigan. Oh wait.

[roriconfan]

Oh, I see the difference now. Gundam 00 didn't have Super Saiyan mechas based on the shounen formula, because the robots didn't eat a lot.

[janipani]

Gumdan 00 is overrated... it has nothing new and old series made that all better. 1st season was confusing and really hard get any sense of it, second was made better in that sense, but still compared to older gundams it was lame.

[fertygo]

@above
Why you talking about 00 overrated or not

Mecha = otoko no romance < my friend quote
So yeah, I don't mind this genre be put to same category as fighting-shounen title or anything
because shounen or seinen is only verbs to explain what audience that titles want to capture.

[Sander RX]

Yeah, SEED mode is sure different from Sharigan. Oh wait.

And what relevance does the mention of SEED mode hold?I thought we were talking about our giant metal toys.Oh and SEED mode IS a tad different from Sharingan,it's an adrenalin boost while Sharingan is an eye power.Not that this has any relevance.

I'm not denying that all those upgrades are essentially power-ups,if that's what you're worried about.What I'm opposed to is the notion that this somehow proves that Fighting Shounens evolved from giant robot cartoons,that there is a direct ancestral line between Mobile Suit Gundam and Bleach.Well,many Shounen tropes can be tracked to sports series.Tommorow's Joe,Ring Ni Kakero and the like.Atleast to the point where they seem like atleast slightly more probable of an ancestor to Naruto than Super Dimensional Fortress Macross.

Oh, I see the difference now. Gundam 00 didn't have Super Saiyan mechas based on the shounen formula, because the robots didn't eat a lot.

I think you took my words out of their context there...and weren't you saying that it was the Shounen which evolved from Mecha?Not the other way around.

And they do eat a lot.They have 15 Phlebotinium/Unobtainium meals a day.

P.S In case anyone thinks I'm just being resentful of Fighting Shounens and trying to seperate my beloved wunderwaffens from them,you're wrong.Problem is that I just can't see this geneological evidence compelling.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Sander RX

P.S In case anyone thinks I'm just being resentful of Fighting Shounens and trying to seperate my beloved wunderwaffens from them,you're wrong.Problem is that I just can't see this geneological evidence compelling.

But you must admit that the bulk of action anime from 60's to 80's were mecha and then they shifted to fighting shounen. For all the reasons I stated, plus because the technology is now good enough to allow nice human-based choreographies.

[Sander RX]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

But you must admit that the bulk of action anime from 60's to 80's were mecha and then they shifted to fighting shounen. For all the reasons I stated, plus because the technology is now good enough to allow nice human-based choreographies.

I can concede to that.

P.S Many mentioned that time has filtered out the bad stuff and preserved only good ones.As wierd as it sounds,I actually dig out some of that junk and watch it.Some of it is pure gold.

[Sheba]

There is very little to write about the 90’s as most of its famous titles are still very good for most to watch. If there is something to notice is that viewers in the 00’s want faster plot and better visuals, so many of the 90’s titles may appear slow or with distasteful animation to bother watching. Also, many successful titles are being constantly cloned with better animation (and usually less context), thus it becomes harder to tell if they are worth the trouble or not. Newer viewers for example find it hard to appreciate older Gundams to recent ones, despite the older ones having sometimes better overall cast or plot.

How about you stop implying that anime watchers of the 00s are some ADHD drooling idiots? I am fairly certain that most of those who watched eroge adaptations are fucking sick and tired of 13 episodes adaptations that are first slow paced and end up rushed in their endings.

Back in the 1980s, I absolutely loved Kimagure Orange Road and I still do. However, if it had to be remade, I would be GLAD IF they trimmed out the fat, and got rid of the pointless filler episodes. It did make Clannad After Story look neatly scripted in comparison, and Clannad anime fans knows that AS suffered from a weak first half that did not seem to end.

This is evident at how most 00’s series are 12 or 13 episodes, while in the 90’s and before they were 24 or more. Still, episodic series with high amounts of atmosphere and cinematics still work great.

I can cut the silliness of such a statement with a chainsaw. Those who decides the lenght of series are NOT the fans, but those who gives the money to the studios.

[panzerfan]

Entertainment during the days when Triumph of the Wills and entertainment today share quite a bit in how that one would parody the source as much as the western world did upon the release of the original movie of Riefenstahl, to the point that the actual contents within the source becomes mere footnotes. The recent example of how much people recall Der Untergang other than Hitler parody should not be too foreign now should it?

Come to think of it, I daresay that the magnum opus of contemporary moe moe titles are from the hands of the notorious Kyoto Animation, with the most opulent amount of capital dedicated only to that aim, and very little compromise to the moe moe source materials, on the subject of modern day animation. I do think that this studio may have eclipsed Madhouse's animated version of Cardcaptor Sakura in catering to moe appeal so consistently throughout these last years of the first post-millennial decade, to the point that they have become text book examples of moe moe title adoptions within the industry.

(I now dread for yet another shitstorm in a teacup over this matter of the proliferation of comtemporary moe moe genre to boil over itself)

[pseudonhym]

I don't think Retro is bad, nor do I think it is better. I think anime evolves the way the world evolves as well. There are some scenes in a retro anime that if watched in the present might look silly, and there are some scenes in a retro anime that are still remembered no matter how much time had passed or ancient the animation was. With that said, anime of today should not really be compared to the anime of the past, as they reflect the events of their own generation.

[Tatakae]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Back in the 1980s, I absolutely loved Kimagure Orange Road and I still do. However, if it had to be remade, I would be GLAD IF they trimmed out the fat, and got rid of the pointless filler episodes. It did make Clannad After Story look neatly scripted in comparison, and Clannad anime fans knows that AS suffered from a weak first half that did not seem to end.

What? Argh, no. I prefer the filler, or "fat" as you call it, from old series like KOR over heavy melodrama in modern series like Clannad AS. The first case, while often seemingly pointless, has its own naiveté and nostalgic charm, while the latter often feels forced and manipulative, at least to me. Of course, YMMV

[HayashiTakara]

The thing I don't like about "modern" anime is that there's been way too many moe blobs and otaku-centric series floating about. Like K-On, Lucky Star, Haruhi, etc...

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Tatakae

What? Argh, no. I prefer the filler, or "fat" as you call it, from old series like KOR over heavy melodrama in modern series like Clannad AS. The first case, while often seemingly pointless, has its own naiveté and nostalgic charm, while the latter often feels forced and manipulative, at least to me. Of course, YMMV

It's not really about the melodrama or something, it's about Kyosuke about to confess or kiss Madoka only to be interrupted by Hikaru the god knows how many times.One or five would be good, but I think I started rolling my eyes after the seventh or the tenth time. A condensed KOR might have the future part and that time travel arc (where future Kyosuke actually went missing during a trip to Sarajevo) from the OAVs and the movies. Now that would have been sweet.

[Samurai dono]

Hi .. I'm new (been lurking around for a couple of months) ..
I look forward to get as much fun out of this as possible while well conducting my self and making this place as pleasureable to everyone as I want it to be for my self

I must apologize first for going off topic back to the original topic ..
It's just that it's really been bugging me and I need to hear experts' comments on this, in fact, this topic is one of the reasons I joined this forum ..

Even though I'm an anime rooky and my list probably hasn't reached a 100 series - mostly, if not entirely, of recent titles - I can clearly tell that modern anime, in most cases, is a fancy graphics bla, and that 4-7 episodes into a show I would get hugely disappointed that the story and the depth of the show weren't even a mile behind what the art had implied at first site.

Retro on the other hand, had proved on several occasions that it can sometimes carry depth meaning and make someone in my age and mental stage actually dive in the show. However, story and plotline aren't everything. Yes, I shouldn't like an anime just because it was well drawn, but for the modern anime watcher who's first introduction to anime was Evangelion or even Clannad, it is almost impossible to get around the art of pre-90's animes and just enjoy the story..

Imagine being asked to watch and enjoy an animated series of Les Miserables only it was drawn Rukia-sketches style - an example with zero significance to most of you since you all seem like ridiculously-long-shonen-series haters. Google it .. I don't mean to belittle retro art and earlier artists in anyway by my example, I'm sure at the time thier work claimed high praise .. but unfortunately that's how I would feel if I started digging through the gold mine of the classics ..

Yes he does have a point .. he's coming to it .. and I must apologise you had to soldier through my poor English, but what I need to say is, why aren't the poeple of the anime industry interested in remaking those classics to meet todays' art standards ?! and I don't mean this new trend of taking a beautifully made series and butcher it to fit into a 26-episode remake with a pace that makes no sense at all, and a good chunk of the good stuff taken away .. but I mean 98% committed sort of remake ..

I've been looking for different kinds of animes in different genres (genres that gave anime its glamour at some point in history) and it didn't make sense to me how the modern anime library lacked them. Later on I realized it didn't, I just happened to hop on the carraige after several move-on attempts of the anime industry. The genres just got old and they had to come up with new ones ..

So if that's the case - old genres had gotten old, and modern anime is running out of material they have to rely on plane art (and unjustified fan service), why don't they just remake the old ones and everyone's happy ?!

Apologies again for the lengthy post, and the wonderful English it was presented with heh ..