Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by TnAdct1

2. Considering Mami and Kyouko to be lost causes from the start and siding against them.

Actually, Mami really is a lost cause. Based on how she reacted in the timeline where the truth about Magical Girls growing into Witches was revealed for the first time, keeping her alive is a major liability. If Mami were to similiarly snap before Madoka and Sayaka become Magical Girls, all possibility points to her being someone's mercy killing if she doesn't immediately become a Witch herself.

But, yeah, after episode 3, I still have no idea why Homura continues to refuse to explain things.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by estdesoda

Today's Kyube:

"Oh man, I think the witch Madoka is going to destroy earth in about 10 days..neh whatever, it's your mankind's problem."

Loved it.

Well, he's speaking the truth. For once.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

... or Madoka draws power from her other selves and becomes a Puella Magi without a contract with Kyubey. That one magazine had two Madokas side by side, and the opening has Madoka transforming with the help of another version of her.

Her vision of Walpurgis Night in ep1 and her "have I met you from somewhere before?" to Homura in ep8 could be fragments of memories from herself in other timelines. Otherwise, it does not make sense that Madoka can remember an event that has not happened yet in her time.

Rather than Madoka drawing power from her past selves, I think it's more likely that she was ridiculously powerful in that one timeline because that's specifically what she wished for (the power to defeat Walpurgisnacht and save Homura).

The first three loops shown in this episode happened when Madoka had already become a MG before Walpurgis. In the first one, she dies, and in the second and third ones, she uses up too much power and becomes a witch. So she's not really getting stronger over the course of those three loops.

It's more likely that the power difference comes because Madoka is making a different wish in the fourth timeline.

edit: for reference,

Spoiler for keeping all the timelines straight:

TIMELINE 1 (ORIGINAL TIMELINE)
Mami and Madoka are Puella Magi, they save Homura at first.
No sign of Kyoko or Sayaka appearing as Puella Magi
Mami dies fighting Walpurgis, Madoka sacrifices herself to defeat it. → Madoka doesn’t turn in to a Witch after death.
Homura contracts with Kyubey in the aftermath → Homura’s Wish: Redo her meeting with Madoka until she is able to protect her.

TIMELINE 2
Homura wakes up right before she leaves hospital (Start Point) → Homura has congenital heart disease
Mami and Madoka are Puella Magi.
Homura helps with Witch hunting with Mami and Madoka. → Still very dojikko at this stage :P → learns the basics of her time stop skill.
No sign of Kyoko or Sayaka Puella Magi
Madoka turns in to Giant Witch after defeating Walpurgis. → Homura discovers the real truth of the Soul Gem system.

TIMELINE 3
START POINT → Homura discovers Kyubey’s lies.
Sayaka and Kyoko appear as Puella Magi this time. → Sayaka doesn’t believe Homura’s revelations of the Soul Gem system. → Doesn’t like Homura.
Homura upgrades her arsenal.
Sayaka turns in to a Witch. → Homura kills Witch Sayaka → Proves Puella Magi turn in to Witches.
Mami goes berserk, kills Kyoko → Madoka kills Mami to defend Homura.
Madoka and Homura face Walpurgisnacht together
Both of them win together, but Madoka saves Homura from turning in to a Witch with a secret Grief Seed stash. → Homura shoots Madoka (at her request) before she becomes the Giant Witch.
Homura returns again.

TIMELINE 4
START POINT → Homura hunts Kyubey down before it approaches Madoka
Homura hunts all the Witches alone, no sign of Mami. → Fuck yeah machine gun Homura!
Walpurgisnacht(WN) appears → Episode 1′s prologue part happens → Homura can’t handle it alone.
Madoka accepts Kyubey’s Contract → Destroys WN in one shot → becomes Giant Witch
Kyubey – energy collection is finished after Madoka changes to Giant Witch, leaves it to Humanity to deal with it. Implies Madoka will destroy Earth any how.
Homura returns again.

TIMELINE 5
CURRENT TIMELINE

(from http://kurogane.animeblogger.net/201...oka-magica-10/)

[Miraluka]

Yeah... the cat... maybe Urobuchi?

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Wow, Japanese girls these days know how to make bombs in their home. Gotta watch out next time I go there.

Nah... they will just stab you in the back as always.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

Rather than Madoka drawing power from her past selves, I think it's more likely that she was ridiculously powerful in that one timeline because that's specifically what she wished for (the power to defeat Walpurgisnacht and save Homura).

The first three loops shown in this episode happened when Madoka had already become a MG before Walpurgis. In the first one, she dies, and in the second and third ones, she uses up too much power and becomes a witch. So she's not really getting stronger over the course of those three loops.

It's more likely that the power difference comes because Madoka is making a different wish in the fourth timeline.

edit: for reference,

Spoiler for keeping all the timelines straight:

TIMELINE 1 (ORIGINAL TIMELINE)
Mami and Madoka are Puella Magi, they save Homura at first.
No sign of Kyoko or Sayaka appearing as Puella Magi
Mami dies fighting Walpurgis, Madoka sacrifices herself to defeat it. → Madoka doesn’t turn in to a Witch after death.
Homura contracts with Kyubey in the aftermath → Homura’s Wish: Redo her meeting with Madoka until she is able to protect her.

TIMELINE 2
Homura wakes up right before she leaves hospital (Start Point) → Homura has congenital heart disease
Mami and Madoka are Puella Magi.
Homura helps with Witch hunting with Mami and Madoka. → Still very dojikko at this stage :P → learns the basics of her time stop skill.
No sign of Kyoko or Sayaka Puella Magi
Madoka turns in to Giant Witch after defeating Walpurgis. → Homura discovers the real truth of the Soul Gem system.

TIMELINE 3
START POINT → Homura discovers Kyubey’s lies.
Sayaka and Kyoko appear as Puella Magi this time. → Sayaka doesn’t believe Homura’s revelations of the Soul Gem system. → Doesn’t like Homura.
Homura upgrades her arsenal.
Sayaka turns in to a Witch. → Homura kills Witch Sayaka → Proves Puella Magi turn in to Witches.
Mami goes berserk, kills Kyoko → Madoka kills Mami to defend Homura.
Madoka and Homura face Walpurgisnacht together
Both of them win together, but Madoka saves Homura from turning in to a Witch with a secret Grief Seed stash. → Homura shoots Madoka (at her request) before she becomes the Giant Witch.
Homura returns again.

TIMELINE 4
START POINT → Homura hunts Kyubey down before it approaches Madoka
Homura hunts all the Witches alone, no sign of Mami. → Fuck yeah machine gun Homura!
Walpurgisnacht(WN) appears → Episode 1′s prologue part happens → Homura can’t handle it alone.
Madoka accepts Kyubey’s Contract → Destroys WN in one shot → becomes Giant Witch
Kyubey – energy collection is finished after Madoka changes to Giant Witch, leaves it to Humanity to deal with it. Implies Madoka will destroy Earth any how.
Homura returns again.

TIMELINE 5
CURRENT TIMELINE

(from http://kurogane.animeblogger.net/201...oka-magica-10/)

She's ridiculously powerful in all timelines except the first. Madoka only loses in the first time, then in all the following timelines, Madoka gets past Walpurgis Night consistently. A little random variation between timeloops is expected, but when Madoka is consistently victorious every time except the first, something must be happening to her.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

... or Madoka draws power from her other selves and becomes a Puella Magi without a contract with Kyubey. That one magazine had two Madokas side by side, and the opening has Madoka transforming with the help of another version of her.

There is a chance but, we also saw Madoka and Homura being hostile to each other and they weren't fighting . . . yet.

Her vision of Walpurgis Night in ep1 and her "have I met you from somewhere before?" to Homura in ep8 could be fragments of memories from herself in other timelines. Otherwise, it does not make sense that Madoka can remember an event that has not happened yet in her time.

Echoes from the future.

[Dist]

Originally Posted by sa547

Another change I noticed: what was once the OP was now made the ED.

This always happens with anime that skip the OP and only have a music video at the ending .. Nothing new.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Echoes from the future.

Pointless. Why give Madoka a premonition from nowhere if she's supposed to be perfectly normal for now?

[fukarming]

Instead of thinking so deeply like everyone else, here is a simple solution: Grab more grief seed! Madoka turned witch because they run out of grief seed. So Madoka is fine if Homura had more grief seed in reserve? Instead of going to school and befriend and whatever, Homura should go around Japan and collect grief seed. Appear before Madoka when she defeat W-night and use grief seed to cleanse her.

[DmonHiro]

This episode was just amazing. The sheer content, the emotions, the pain. Wonderfully executed. The different, yet same ending was painful each time.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Pointless. Why give Madoka a premonition from nowhere if she's supposed to be perfectly normal for now?

Thats because you're assuming she is perfectly normal. Then why not to assume time is relative in this series?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Instead of thinking so deeply like everyone else, here is a simple solution: Grab more grief seed! Madoka turned witch because they run out of grief seed. So Madoka is fine if Homura had more grief seed in reserve? Instead of going to school and befriend and whatever, Homura should go around Japan and collect grief seed. Appear before Madoka when she defeat W-night and use grief seed to cleanse her.

That's not the point. All contracted girls are doomed to become witch. It'll hapen sooner or later.

The only way to actuall save Madoka is preventing her from contracting.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Instead of thinking so deeply like everyone else, here is a simple solution: Grab more grief seed! Madoka turned witch because they run out of grief seed. So Madoka is fine if Homura had more grief seed in reserve? Instead of going to school and befriend and whatever, Homura should go around Japan and collect grief seed. Appear before Madoka when she defeat W-night and use grief seed to cleanse her.

This is under the baseless assumption that Madoka would accept using Grief Seeds. The current Sayaka refused even when she didn't know that Witches used to be Puella Magi. Mami freaked out and turned into a Witch anyway when she found out. What makes you think Madoka, who became a Puella Magi to help others and even asked to be killed in one timeline, would use a Grief Seed when she knows that she would be using the remains of a former Puella Magi?

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Thats because you're assuming she is perfectly normal. Then why not to assume time is relative in this series?

Going off your logic, then why can't Madoka have a connection with her other selves from previous timelines?

[Riou17]

If the MG/Witch system wasn't made by Kyubey's kind then how did that happen? I mean how can they discover that energy without MGs, unless MGs existed before and that they somehow find a way to make a girl into a MG in their own way.

Another solution for Homura to stop jumping into another timelime is to not save Madoka. I mean from the original timelime, Homura wasn't even a MG and that both Mami and Madoka died saving the world. If Homura tries to save Madoka, she's just prolonging both her and Madoka's suffering. Kyubey won't also get Witch Madoka's energy. Why can't she just go back in time and stop herself from making a contract with Kyubey. I know it's bad but at least she won't see Madoka suffer anymore.

Originally Posted by fukarming

Instead of thinking so deeply like everyone else, here is a simple solution: Grab more grief seed! Madoka turned witch because they run out of grief seed. So Madoka is fine if Homura had more grief seed in reserve? Instead of going to school and befriend and whatever, Homura should go around Japan and collect grief seed. Appear before Madoka when she defeat W-night and use grief seed to cleanse her.

Then it would be Homura who'll turn into a witch because she gave them all to Madoka. Madoka will then be forced to kill her. After that, she either fall into deep despair or used up most of her powers and then turn into a witch.

[Mentar]

Fantastic. Simply fantastic. After rewatching it, I can only say that while nothing was really totally shocking and new, this storyline has just mended alot of potential plot holes and came up with a perfectly credible explanation for Homura's development.

Unless they completely screw up the last 2 eps, we have another anime en route to the famous "epic" level. But seeing the care Urobuchi put into the script, I'm confident he'll find a proper closure.

Oh, and before I forget:

Zetsubomura >> Moemura

[Roardel]

Year, it's typical time paradox. But I doubt there would be such a "happy end." Considering of Shaft's way of making stories, MM may end with whole tragedy.

[Kanon]

This episode was so, so good. Even though nothing in this episode surprised me (save for one particular event), witnessing what happened in these timeline was wonderful!

"Hanekawa" Homura was so freaking moe, holy christ! I still prefer "Senjougahara" Homura though. I told you Homura was just Homura. I believed in the Madoka = Homura theory ever since episode 1, however, after Homura's burning love for Madoka was made clear, I knew she couldn't possibly be Madoka. There's no way anyone can love oneself that much.

The role reversal was entertaining. Madoka as the cool, strong, and confident magical girl (I couldn't believe my eyes ) and Homura as the helpless, insecure girl. It was cool to see Mami again. I was astonished by her freakout. We were already aware she wasn't as tough as she tried to make herself appear, but wow, I never thought she'd lose it like this. This scene was breathtaking.

Hmm, I don't see much hope for the current timeline. It's not so different from the last one (Homura is the only MG currently alive in this city, and Madoka still hasn't made a contract). It appears to me that the only way to stop this vicious cycle is to kill that bastard Kyubey (easier said that done, I know). As long as he exists, he'll find a way to lure Madoka into contracting.

Wait, I know! They need to summon the famous cat from the OP! He's Kyubey's nenemesis!

[AvatarST]

Come to think of it, we never found out what Madoka's wish was. Does anyone think this will be a relevant plot point? "The only remaining way" makes me think that a well-thought wish by Madoka could solve things, perhaps...

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fantastic. Simply fantastic. After rewatching it, I can only say that while nothing was really totally shocking and new, this storyline has just mended alot of potential plot holes and came up with a perfectly credible explanation for Homura's development.

Unless they completely screw up the last 2 eps, we have another anime en route to the famous "epic" level. But seeing the care Urobuchi put into the script, I'm confident he'll find a proper closure.

Oh, and before I forget:

Zetsubomura >> Moemura

With a proper conclusion this will be a classic.

[radicalbyte]

What if Madoka contracted for a wish that would cause a paradox. Something that could never be fulfilled? Something which would break the system?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by radicalbyte

What if Madoka contracted for a wish that would cause a paradox. Something that could never be fulfilled? Something which would break the system?

I doubt Kyubey would grant a wish that directly harms his system.