2008-11-15, 19:34 | Link #101 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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@Mumitroll: I'm not unaware of what you mentioned on Stalin. (Heck, I have a test on him, and other European dicators in December.)
Spoiler for Stalin:
Spoiler for Franco:
Spoiler for liberal democracy:
Spoiler for Serbia:
@Reckoner: I personally think that the second bomb was needed. Heck, after the second bomb, the Japanese High Command still had the will to fight on. It was Hirohito who thought that it was enough. And the High Command even mounted a last-minute coup attempt to reverse the decision.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2008-11-15 at 19:54. |
2008-11-16, 01:06 | Link #102 | |
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Knowing the tragedy of the atomic bombs, yet people still continue to mass produce nukes in modern times. It is truly pitiful. |
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2008-11-16, 01:37 | Link #103 |
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Location: Land of the rising sun
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To my knowledge dropping the two bombs was more of a political choice rather than a military one.
The US military knew that Japan did not have any will left to fight back when they were doing the carpet bombing since there were no interceptor fcoming after them and had little/no resistance. Japan also tried to negotiate a peace treaty through the Swiss in June which was completely ignored by the allied forces. The US could have simply created a blockade for 6 month and finish off whatever was left. The Japanese urban population at this point were eating weeds and roots and did not have enough oil to maintain even bare necessities. The reason why they didn't do this was because the Soviets were closing in. The US did not want to share Japan like Germany so they dropped the bomb finishing it off before Soviets could mount a real invasion. The reason for dropping two to my understanding was to test the difference in design, little boy dropped on Hiroshima was a Gun-type Uranium 235 bomb and the US military knew it will go off because of it's simple design. On the other hand, Fat boy dropped on Nagasaki was an implosion type Plutonium bomb and although they tested it in Los Alamos the military was not sure if it will detonate in real life conditions being dropped from a B-29 so they did a live amo test on Japan. The US science team also wanted to know if there was any difference in damage and radiation exposure on humans between the difference in design and material. |
2008-11-16, 02:56 | Link #104 | |
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2008-11-16, 04:06 | Link #105 |
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By concept, you are correct. However, the ones who drop the atomic bombs were from a democratic society where human rights are well-acknowledged and that makes it a little different. Obviously, any military body in this world don't really care much about civilian lives, all they care about is the success and outcome of the mission given to them by their superiors.
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2008-11-16, 05:04 | Link #106 | |||
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2008-11-16, 05:22 | Link #107 |
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Nope, in the history books.
Kurile Landing Operation (August 18, 1945 - September 1, 1945) Wrong again, "Fat Man" was an implosion-type weapon using plutonium 239. A subcritical sphere of plutonium was placed in the center of a hollow sphere of high explosive. |
2008-11-16, 05:33 | Link #108 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Somr army are worse than others, after all killing civilians waiste ammunition and get bad Public Relation. But if they can be call 'Terrorists'' like the russian did in Afganistan.
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2008-11-16, 06:03 | Link #110 | |
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Hint hint: Hitler refused to sign them.
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2008-11-16, 09:45 | Link #112 | |
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Japan petitioned for human equality at the Paris Peace Conference which was over ruled by the British and the US. Japan was also pushed by the US with denial of the counter proposal with other provocations which led to the infamous ultimatum, the Hull note. For the record I am not saying Japan was purely an innocent victim since she had her own political problems after the 30's when the military highjacked the government and the Emperor was impotent to take more aggresive action against the military but it was not Japan's fault alone that led to the bloody war and every party had blood on their hands. |
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2008-11-16, 15:13 | Link #113 | |||||||
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your view of "Russian people taking the opportunity to settle scores" is more or less nonsense. the idea of the purges encouraged telling on people who were supposed to be an "enemy of the people". imagine yourself in such a situation. where any asshole, if he doesnt like you for some reason, can send an anonymous note to the NKVD saying that you said anti-Soviet things. and that would be enough to land you in a Siberian work camp. it's enough if 1 person out of 100 is such an asshole to ruin the lives of many people in such an environment. there is a word in Russian for such people - "stukach" - and thats a very derogatory word. Quote:
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2008-11-16, 16:58 | Link #115 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Am I wrong or even back at Clausewitz, civil area could be seen as military targets. From the time of the Mass production , civilians was the ones building the war material and potential low-qualified troop. It was the time of the bigger the army, the better.
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2008-11-16, 17:15 | Link #116 | |
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2008-11-16, 18:39 | Link #117 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
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@Mumitroll: The US today may not be an full liberal democracy, but I wouldn't mind Singapore taking a few steps in that direction.
As for the Soviet ratting, 'derogatory' doesn't mean it didn't exist. Franco being fascist: I sure hope my lecturer wouldn't ask this question in my exam. Then again, due to a little screw-up, our part on Spain was supposed to be confined with the Spanish Civil War. The nukes: Add to "show of power" "scientific curiousity". After spending a ton of money on the stuff, they needed to see some action.
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2008-11-16, 23:31 | Link #120 | |
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However, I think it's an exaggeration to say that Japan did not have "any will" to fight, left. Given the fanaticism of the Japanese military, if the Emperor did not give the word to surrender, they might very well have fought on. And as for a peaceful settlement, it was believed that Japan wanted a peace accord that would allow them to retain their empire or, at least, "save face." That, to the US and its allies, was unacceptable. It is necessary to see the atomic bombing of Japan in the context of the general brutality of World War II. Yes, it was tragic, and yes, it was wrong (though, as others have said, one cannot easily predict how many lives would've been lost if either the US or the Soviets invaded). But civilian targeting is part of total war, and World War II was a total war. The level of dehumanization reached disgusting levels during the course of the war, which led, in part if not in full, to the atrocities committed. The Japanese certainly didn't spare much in their invasions of China and Southeast Asia, so in some sense, they got what they dished out (compare Japan's wartime civilian casualties to China's, if you don't believe me). The best that can be said about World War II is that it showed humanity the true depravity of total war and fascism, which has led to an era of (relative) peace and liberalism. There are also important lessons for how to manage emerging powers (Japan and Germany were emerging powers at the time), which I hope the current batch of established powers took to heart. If not - if humanity fails to learn from history - then, as Einstein said, "I don't know how man will fight World War III, but I do know how they will fight World War IV; with sticks and stones." Last edited by Lathdrinor; 2008-11-17 at 00:02. |
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