(L) Toradora! Novel Discussion

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Unless I am understanding it badly and author does not want for Taiga and Ryuuji to be a romantic couple at all. Just sort of soul buddies that do not really have much romantic feelings for each other - then yes, one volume is enough

Yes I think you are understanding it THAT badly. Volume 9 (which I just finished) had setup such that both Ryuji and Taiga had already poured their hearts out at each other (they had show each other their most vulnearable side, and each also readily accepts the other), and that Taiga is ready to tell Ryuji her true feelings (she is no longer going to run away from telling Ryuji that she loves him, she knows what Minorin really thinks so all barriers are gone). Ryuji is also ready to tell Taiga that he will not leave her no matter what and he had gotten over his crush with Minorin, it is a set deal. One passionate confession scene is enough to seal it all - unless they do a "cheap reset" trick to introduce a reboot of their relationship or throw dumb obstecles like more outside characters like other many shounen lovecoms like to do - which I really don't see it happening now, I don't think there's going to be anything more that is needed to emphasis how far and developed Taiga and Ryuji's relationship had gone. However if they do a cheap reset I'll be the first to torch the books.

Also as I've said, ToraDora is more written as an idealised, perfect dream couple relationship from a female POV where their mutual feelings and bonding is more important and deeper display of affection than the flirting/touching/kissing than you see from male authors, heck it even reminds me of some old Japanese and Korean dramas aimed at young-middle age women (which, not so incidentially, the author is in that age and sex bracket) in its way of treating romantic relationships where heart bonding between a couple is above everything else and being thought of as highly romantic. It is not a matter of what you want or need to see to as proof that Ryuji and Taiga are a "romantic couple" (which is quite a silly definition you made up, IMNSHO), but how the author herself treats and approaches this relationship and all signs points to that your expectations are not going to be met. Or again, look at my example of Clannad as another relationship that closely resembles what we see here in ToraDora. Tomoya and Nagaisa hardly even touch each other but can you doubt that they're have no romantic feelings but just soul buddies by your definition? If you want the author to write about those "romantic" things, than again like I said before, you're reading the wrong series and are having the wrong expectations.

Originally Posted by Vexx

I wouldn't mind an in depth volume 10 and 11 .... but I also see the non-artistic (business) part of the energy curve for the series bearing down towards a synchronized ending for the books and series.

Actually if you get a chance to read the novels, it totally feels like volume 9 was just a first part of a two part arc and it does feel very strongly that it sets up for a strong second half finish in volume 10. Also with how long ago volume 9 was published (October) I would think the script would've be finished even earlier than that, thus I don't think the business side had that much of an effect on it. It all reads like a very well planned out ending.

The only way I can see a volume 11 would be a really long epilogue type of story describing how all the characters lives their life after they have sorted out their relationships, but I find it incredible difficult to imagine the main story arc (Taiga and Ryuji sorting out their feelings for each other) to be able to carry on for more than what's being set up for volume 10.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Also as I've said, ToraDora is more written as an idealised, perfect dream couple relationship from a female POV where their mutual feelings and bonding is more important and deeper display of affection than the flirting/touching/kissing than you see from male authors, heck it even reminds me of some old Japanese and Korean dramas aimed at middle age women (which, not so incidentially, the author is in that age and sex bracket) in its way of treating romantic relationships where heart bonding between a couple is above everything else and being thought of as highly romantic. It is not a matter of what you want or need to see to proof that Ryuji and Taiga are a "romantic couple" (which is quite a silly definition you made up, IMNSHO), but how the author herself treats and approaches this relationship and all signs points to that your expectations are not going to be met. If you want the author to write about those "romance" things, than again like I said before, you're reading the wrong series and are having the wrong expectations.

It would be good end to have those two as a couple bound in a non-physical attraction way. Of course , physical is good, but I always though than it created a week bound betweem peoples, than it need something else.

[roan]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Actually if you get a chance to read the novels, it totally feels like volume 9 was just a first part of a two part arc and it does feel very strongly that it sets up for a strong second half finish in volume 10. Also with how long ago volume 9 was published (October) I would think the script would've be finished even earlier than that, thus I don't think the business side had that much of an effect on it. It all reads like a very well planned out ending.

The only way I can see a volume 11 would be a really long epilogue type of story describing how all the characters lives their life after they have sorted out their relationships, but I find it incredible difficult to imagine the main story arc (Taiga and Ryuji sorting out their feelings for each other) to be able to carry on for more than what's being set up for volume 10.

I personally wouldn't mind an after-story. There's really not much of a reason to drag on the main arc of course.

I've been hearing a couple of different interepretations about the "climax" that's described though in the preview for volume 10. It seems like Dengeki Bunko has some kind of tradition of using a catch phrase like "ついに完結" or something like that. I think it's highly unlikely for there to be a volume 11, but you never know.

[Darknemo2000]

As I said before - non-physical relationship is very dysfuncytional. We all can blabber about idealism and romatism in poetry but real relationship is combination of both.

It is not skipping flirting and touching. Love consist from both spiritual and physical closeness, if you think that only spiritual is enough then you have either never been in a relationship or still lost in your idealistic fantasies.

Love cannot exist without both of them.

Plato was actually angry when he was misunderstood about Platonic Love, as Platonic Love was part of actual physical love. Anyone readings his Dialog Feast can see that as this is where he discusses love, platonic love and the eidos of Love.

He believed that those who are trying to approach love with only spiritual bond are just as much wrong as those who are approaching it with only physical bond.

Real love cannot function without these two going up together. If the author really ignores the physical part of relationship then Taiga and Ryuuji never really love each other. They are just spiritual buddies. Not lovers.

Thats why the whole issue of later volume becomes artificial as simply the main point of their relationship is already reached - their spiritual bond. What we see there is just needless running around. Since if it true what you say and I misunderstand everything, for the author it is spiritual bond that is only important here, but then she should not bring the emotions that are part of physical connection in as leading to the climax here.

If she wants to create a mix, then she should play more importance to the physical part as well and not randomly throw it as a final climax problem, which should not be a problem at all if the main focus is really spiritual connection.

Right now, if it really it is the way you look, and I misunderstood it completely, the author is showing how another dysfunctional relationship is build.

Without physical closeness it will never be love.

As I said in another thread - you cannot say that one thing is more important than the other. Without spiritual bond you will have sex, not love, without physical closeness (and flirting) you will have a companionship but not love too.

Love is like a tree. For it to grow it needs both sun and water. With only sun (spiritual bond), the tree will fade away, with only water (physical closeness) - it will never grow. Love is keeping a mix of them both.

For me it feels like the author is still stuck in the idealistic romance fantasies of her own. Sad, as with this Taiga's and Ryuuji's relationship is doomed, or at leats - will never become a love.

[apr]

Have spoiler tags gone out of style? I was planning to write something deep and brilliant about the series, but this flu is turning my brain into snotty mush, so it will have to wait.

Spoiler for novels 9-10:

I agree with Houkoholic on this -- the love story is over. It's a done deal, people; Ryuuji and Taiga are it, move on. It surprised me, though, because I went into novel 9 expecting a fleshed-out chapter about Ami's involvement in this peculiar relationship drama. Instead she barely figured at all, and pretty much got swept under the rug? What the hell?

I realize I'm being a stupid 'shipper here, but surely Ami is ten times the woman that spoiled brat will ever be? To me, the series (after it left the comedic realm and entered dramaland) has been carried on Ami's shoulders, with her constant attempts to goad the other characters into being honest with themselves. Few things have had me so "on the edge of my seat" as her late scenes with Minori (after the Sumire battle of book 6, and after the bath in book 8) with their intensely explosive dialogue. On the other hand, Ryuuji is too thick for my precious Ami-chan!

At the end of book 9, Ryuuji and Taiga are already in a relationship -- the only thing left is for them to admit it. But with the pace the series has had so far, I was certain we wouldn't reach this point until book 11 or so, where (timewise) the class would finally split up and force a conclusion. Now I'm left completely lost, trying to figure out just what direction the author wants to take the next book, with the story's "engine" (ie. Which Girl Will He Pick) out of the equation.

Uhoh, I think I may have contradicted myself (regarding "move on").

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by apr

I realize I'm being a stupid 'shipper here, but surely Ami is ten times the woman that spoiled brat will ever be?

While Ami may come off as more mature, I think the thing that sets Taiga and Ami apart, and even to a certain degree why even Ami herself is drawn towards Taiga is the level of commitment and determination that Taiga has but Ami doesn't. Ami sort of just dips her toes into things, she's not as committed to her cause as Taiga would do. Taiga's emotions are very honest and even extreme, when she likes you, even as a friend, she would do *literally* everything she can for you no matter how tough things gets or how much it hurts herself and asks for nothing in return even though she is far from being strong enough to be alone (such as how she was willing to put her ownself in danger and gave her bastard of a father a third chance because of Ryuji, also volume 8-9 completely highlights this side of her, the way she stood by Ryuji in volume 9 despite her own situations was absolutely beautiful). Ami still has that little self-protection instinct in her that keeps her from totally opening up or being 100% committing - she had doubts and her pride sometimes gets in the way, and also in a sense she opens herself up was just her trying to get people to notice that she herself wants/needs help. Taiga otoh doesn't do that, Taiga would rather herself suffer than let others worry about her, she would cry in a dark corner and then come out smiling at you, while Ami would throw a bit of a tandum to signal that she's not happy and wants attention. Their animal-inspired nickname seems to reflect this as well - a chiwuawua would cuddle up to its owner for comfort and protection but a tiger never shows its weakness even when it is hurt. Both Ami and Taiga has good intentions and both do something for the group, but it is this quality of Taiga's that is equal if not better than Ami's.

[wistfulloner]

Taiga might have grown that sort of maturity throughout the series, it's not really in-built in her from the very beginning. At the start she would dish out her agony in front of Ryuji, not really in the form of crying-in-a-corner. It's later in the series that she matures because of her interactions with other characters.

I like your comparison for the chihuahua and the tiger houkoholic, it really defines clearly how the two behave in general.

@Darknemo2000, I don't understand your deep "hatred" towards JC staff. Toradora! is redemption enough for their past failures in my opinion; if you really dislike this studio so much, it's a big mystery why you're still following this series. They have created some good ones, like Honey & Clover as well.

[typhonsentra]

Back to talking about volume 6 (I woke up in the middle of the night and am still thinking about it)...

Spoiler:

A lot of things happened at the end that I've thought would happen for a long time but was hoping it'd play out differently than i expected.

For starters, Taiga "Getting over" Kitamura... this didn't really happen, she merely had to accept that her feelings were unrequited. I recognize that she's had conflicting opinions on who she feels for as far back as the first book but I dislike how the choice was made for her. Ryuuji becomes her "Safety" guy, even his picture's position in her handbook reflects this.

And onto Ami...

First thing, what the hell was with people who've read these books ahead of the B-T translation and claimed Ami never developed strong feelings for Ryuuji? Because by this point that seems to of been a bold-faced lie.

I've read quite a bit about her switching over to a big sister role and her just wanting to support the two who she feels are right for each other but that's not the way it seemed to me at the end of this chapter. She even admits it to herself: she's jealous of the situation (She doesn't specify what but it seems clear to me that it's of Minori).

Readers seem to take her words at face value too often, in particular her relationship advice. It seems to me she's been actively trying to poison their relationship from the beginning. What we see at the end of 6 is her finally feeling guilty about it.

Keep in mind this is not a critique of the quality of the book/writing.

[roan]

Your reading of it is kind of distorted.

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Back to talking about volume 6 (I woke up in the middle of the night and am still thinking about it)...

Spoiler:

A lot of things happened at the end that I've thought would happen for a long time but was hoping it'd play out differently than i expected.

For starters, Taiga "Getting over" Kitamura... this didn't really happen, she merely had to accept that her feelings were unrequited. I recognize that she's had conflicting opinions on who she feels for as far back as the first book but I dislike how the choice was made for her. Ryuuji becomes her "Safety" guy, even his picture's position in her handbook reflects this.

Spoiler:

You have really been reading this series a little bit strangely... What really happened over here wasn't getting over Kitamura, but realizing that she couldn't do anything for him. She already realized this a while back, that's why her feelings exploded that way instead of let's say, sobbing herself to death. It's just putting the nail in the coffin, although she still didn't dismiss the possibility of becoming a couple with Kitamura at the beginning of volume 7 (she was more or less just not thinking about it, actually she still considered the idea until what happened at the end).

You can't really describe Ryuuji as being the "safety" guy to her, because Ryuuji was NEVER a safety guy to Taiga consciously. Like I said, her position by the end of volume 5, which is being told from her perspective, indicated that Ryuuji was the guy she was going to have leave the nest from and not the guy she was going to latch on to "just in case". The photo in there, is really reflecting how important he is to her emotionally.

And besides that. If you compare her reaction to what happened in volume 6, and what happened volume 7, you'll see what I mean.

And onto Ami...

First thing, what the hell was with people who've read these books ahead of the B-T translation and claimed Ami never developed strong feelings for Ryuuji? Because by this point that seems to of been a bold-faced lie.

I never said that. More like Darknemo did, but eh.

Spoiler:

Like I said before, she has conflicting feelings (ie a mixture of both - you can already see this with her reaction to Taiga's face in volume 4 and how she said that she was seriously interested in Ryuuji regardless of Taiga, back in the cave), but by volume 9 she admitted to Ryuuji that she stuck around and started tampering because she saw there was something wrong and she wanted to fix it. She's obviously not mentioning everything, but that's her main intended position.

After that, her own role in the novels was relegated to watching on the sidelines, pointing out straight to people that there's something twisted. But because she's already personally emotionally involved with you know who, she also messed up, which is what happened in volume 6.

So after that, she tries to make up for how she screwed up which is basically where she straight out warns Ryuuji that something bad will happen, but sometimes her own private feelings pop up. But really, she didn't want to make things any more messed up than they already were, so she bottles them up and pretends they didn't happen, or maybe she was hoping someone (Ryuuji) would notice. Nobody did. She didn't know what she wanted either at that point.

I wouldn't say she's a big sister character though. More like a person in the audience who's only options are to say this and that to the people participating in a game, but can't participate herself.

[typhonsentra]

Spoiler:

What I meant was that she only fully moved to pining for Ryuuji once Kitamura finally confessed to another girl. She remained indecisive up until the decision was taken away from her. It makes it seem like Ryuuji wasn't her first choice.

And I didn't claim you were the one who said those things about Ami.

[Darknemo2000]

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Ami's feelings are not what you would call a strong affection to him, rather than a supportive role. No one said that she is happy with the role, but that is her role and she does it. Her feelings are not strong in a sense like Taiga. I never claimed that I understood her character in fact I always said that she mysterious character. She was always a mystery - specially how far and how strong her affections reach. And when I said she is nothing but big sister - I was more referring to the factual state and not emotioonal state since Ami's is hard to figure out. But factually it is nothing more as big sister/friend as simply Ryuuji has no strong feelings towards her.

Roan, I think typhonsentra with safety guy, mean that Ryuuji is her second-choice guy, as only when Kitamura moves on she starts to move on as well. And probably from that side one could question if such romance is really that genuine or not. Well at least from Ryuuji's side you cannot question that, but from Taiga's side it is more questionable, because factually she never gets over Kitamura as in herself, but more like situation makes her get over him. I think that is what typhonsentra is referring to.

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

@Darknemo2000, I don't understand your deep "hatred" towards JC staff. Toradora! is redemption enough for their past failures in my opinion; if you really dislike this studio so much, it's a big mystery why you're still following this series. They have created some good ones, like Honey & Clover as well.

And I do not understand your 'affection' towards them either. Specially when you are referring to the future and claim they have capable hands on doing original stuff when everything is against that - in Toradora their only really more or less original episode was in the beginning where Taiga was being Louise, that not so many liked.

And when you look at their original attempts on other series it is far from convincing about them having 'capable hands' about it.

Saying that for you it is mystery why I follow the series though dislike the studio a lot, is similar like saying why you are living in the country if you voted for different president and never liked the one who was elected.

You have very little choices left, either stay or leave the country (or watch or drop the anime), but because you like the country you are living in (and like the series that are getting animated) you have your choice possibilities limited.

Give me a different anime studio doing anime of Toradora and I would gladly switch to them, but since it is that JC Staff there isn't much choice for me left as I still want to see series animated. Though I would be more than happy if it was not JC Staff, believe me.

H&Clover is already old story - their latest masterpieces are ZnT2, ZnT3 and SnS2 (and for me Kimikisss though it is weirdly popular here, compared to how it is in japanese forums, but again I think it is probably because there are little fans of the game as only very little played it to begin with and when you have nothing to compare it with, you think that the one at the hands is best).

I have no choice but to admit that Toradora is doing fine, yet it could be better as their pacing is still ridiculous.

[wistfulloner]

If you're gonna view it that way, I can't stop you, but if even you say the first "season" is doing fine, why must you automatically assume the following episodes will be lousy just because JC staff is handling it? If it's doing fine, why would you want another studio to do it? How do you know this dream studio of yours won't screw the whole series up even worse?

H&C will still be a good story regardless of time, compared to your so-called "masterpieces". I don't see anything wrong with matching that to JC staff's potential.

[Darknemo2000]

Lets just say that when you make a lot of stuff some just happen to make some better than others.

If during a basketball game I shoot 40 times, naturally, I can make some of those shots connect, right? But if I shoot below 15% and my teams looses miserably but I still manage to make near twenty points, am I a good player? Hardly. Even if one or two shots were rather spectacular, it doesn't change the fact that I am a bad player.

When you look at the numbers of what they have created and the actual quality from all works you can see that it is average at best studio, that shouldn't be allowed to make sequels.

[wistfulloner]

So, you're trying to tell me that Toradora! is a good show by chance, just like the lucky 15% shots in basketball? A studio should not be allowed to make sequels to it's own successful anime series because it's past efforts were bad?

If you take a shot, it happens in a second. If you make a second season for an anime, it takes months. You may screw up in one second, but you have so many seconds in a month.

[typhonsentra]

Isn't Index a decent adaptation?

[Darknemo2000]

The source is bad already (Index is far from being very great novel series) so it being decent does not mean much - not to mention they still waste too much time on talking or animating useless scenes. Actually it would be good a Toradora director to place for Index because he likes skipping scenes with ridiculous pacing and Index badly needs quite a few scenes skipped.

As compared to Toradora it is filled with a lot of useless dialogge and monologe. But it must be the curse of the studio, that the series where they should not skip that much stuff around, they skip, while the series that needs skipping - they do not.

Wist, when they will make a good sequel then maybe we can talk about it again, so far though all of their efforts were within the amplitude of bad to worse.

So far there are only zero's marking their sequel efforts.

If players is bad at shooting, and cannot make any shots in the second half, would you tell him to shoot or bench him?

If you are a very bad coach you would tell him to shoot. If you are an average coach you would bech him, if you are good coach that does not like to break players confidence, you would keep on the court but tell him not to shoot unless it is 99% sure shot (like alone from under the basket).

But what if the player like JC Staff keeps shooting from whatever position it has thinking that all shots are 99% sure despite his latest ones not even touching the rim (ZnT2, Znt3) and so far hasnt made a single shot in, what to do...

I'd rather bench him and not see him making any more horible shots with poor shot selection and completely kill the game.

[Vexx]

JC Staff really does have a mixed track record (some really good and some bad) -- but historically its biggest problems arise when it departs from the source material.

However, in the last couple of years I've found it more informative to look at the actual names on the team and their past credits than to use the studio itself as a predictor.

Also, I've found departing from the source material to result in failure or mediocrity for the most part regardless of the studio. There are some jewels... but considerably less than 50% pull it off.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Also, I've found departing from the source material to result in failure or mediocrity for the most part regardless of the studio. There are some jewels... but considerably less than 50% pull it off.

Only studio I can think of that can pull it off is BONES... and this is because they have a tendency to depart from the source material long before it would actually be needed, in order to maintain internal consistency.

The problem with JC Staff being behind this is that they inevitably seem to think that original content is a good idea, and that their writers are artistic geniuses. Which, you know, they aren't.

[gengar]

erm i kinda new ..
does these novel have pics inside them?
cos e one i m reading >shana< has ..
do toradora has too? cos if have isit ok to post them hre?

[typhonsentra]

Yeah, pretty much all light novels have illustrations. The only one I've read without any was Welcome to the NHK.