Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[Avira]

Kanon is too good for Nina. Like everyone else. Including Suzaku.
-.-

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Only when the show has presented such a pairing to be close to impossible and the only reasoning behind the pairing seems to be some notion that writers can if they chose.

But lets not start this again hm? I mean that comment on Lelouch x Kallen fans is almost a bait...

Well, sure, if you guys keep dismissing all the points I bring up as void according to your standards, it is impossible. And here I thought this thread was about discussion. Thanks for the condescending tone by the way.

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I'm just tired of hearing about Kallen tsundere moment with Suzaku which isn't the case at all.

And I'm tired of people who think their opinion = fact.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

And I'm tired of people who think their opinion = fact.

Hu? Wait... what?

Tsundere- A term used to describe behavior that seems harsh on the outside, but caring on the inside.

or a longer version...

Tsundere (ツンデレ, Tsundere?) is a Japanese character archetype that describes a conceited, spikey, combative personality that later on turns to being modest and loving. It can also describe a personality that is good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature.
~Examples courtesy of Wikipedia:

One of the earliest examples of a tsundere is Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger Z, and other well-known examples are Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road, and Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku. While the three are generally kind girls, they are initially resistant to accept romantic overtures and turn cold when the lead male starts showing interest in other girls, and both Sayaka and Madoka are known to become physically aggressive towards the lead males sometimes.

Now, please tell me, where any of that applies to what occurred between Suzaku and Kallen. I'll make a list of things to answer:

1. Where did Kallen seem caring on the inside?
2. When in that scene was Kallen conceited?
3. Where did Kallen's actions in that scene contradict her usual demeanour concerning Refrain?
4. Where in the scene did Kallen's actions contradict usual demeanour (this season) against Suzaku?
5. When has Kallen ever been caring about Suzaku?
6. When did Suzaku attempt to use romantic overtures which Kallen resisted to accept?
7. Romantic overtures... anywhere in that scene at all?
8. Needless physical aggression typical of a tsundere or extreme bashfulness also typical of a tsundere?
9. Compare whatever answers you may come up with actual tsundere, eg nearly every scene between Kallen and Lelouch barring Ep.9, and tell me what the hell is Tsundere about Ep.16.

I'm not sure what your point was when, by definition, even loosely applied, that was not tsundere.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Well, sure, if you guys keep dismissing all the points I bring up as void according to your standards, it is impossible. And here I thought this thread was about discussion. Thanks for the condescending tone by the way.

Proving your points as false in context to what was shown in the show is not dismissing them. Dismissing them would be ignoring said points and keep reposting the same points despite them being refuted. And considering that you decided not to argue the point farther I respected that and therefore did not respond to your last post on the subject, if you want to bring this up again I'd be more then happy to oblige but I thought you were tired of it. And I wasn't being condescending, merely pointing out the fact that what you post generalizing Kallen fans could be considered as baiting.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

Hu? Wait... what?

Tsundere- A term used to describe behavior that seems harsh on the outside, but caring on the inside.

or a longer version...

Tsundere (ツンデレ, Tsundere?) is a Japanese character archetype that describes a conceited, spikey, combative personality that later on turns to being modest and loving. It can also describe a personality that is good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature.
~Examples courtesy of Wikipedia:

One of the earliest examples of a tsundere is Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger Z, and other well-known examples are Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road, and Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku. While the three are generally kind girls, they are initially resistant to accept romantic overtures and turn cold when the lead male starts showing interest in other girls, and both Sayaka and Madoka are known to become physically aggressive towards the lead males sometimes.

Now, please tell me, where any of that applies to what occurred between Suzaku and Kallen. I'll make a list of things to answer:

1. Where did Kallen seem caring on the inside?
2. When in that scene was Kallen conceited?
3. Where did Kallen's actions in that scene contradict her usual demeanour concerning Refrain?
4. Where in the scene did Kallen's actions contradict usual demeanour (this season) against Suzaku?
5. When has Kallen ever been caring about Suzaku?
6. When did Suzaku attempt to use romantic overtures which Kallen resisted to accept?
7. Romantic overtures... anywhere in that scene at all?
8. Needless physical aggression typical of a tsundere or extreme bashfulness also typical of a tsundere?
9. Compare whatever answers you may come up with actual tsundere, eg nearly every scene between Kallen and Lelouch barring Ep.9, and tell me what the hell is Tsundere about Ep.16.

I'm not sure what your point was when, by definition, even loosely applied, that was not tsundere.

1) I was quoting this post for the "THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS AND I KNOW IT SO SHUT UP" factor

2) Keep your Kallen-expert analysis to yourself, I'm not even bothering to argue with you anymore. You are right, I am wrong, go gloat in your basement or something.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

1) I was quoting this post for the "THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS AND I KNOW IT SO SHUT UP" factor

2) Keep your Kallen-expert analysis to yourself, I'm not even bothering to argue with you anymore. You are right, I am wrong, go gloat in your basement or something.

Wait what? You quoted a post that simply stated something that was accurate. All that the person said what that they were tired of hearing something that is no correct. I do not see them saying 'This is how it is, and I know it so shut up', it is a 'This is how it actually is, stop making things up'. Would you not also be annoyed if I told you that the word 'violence' meant hugs and kisses?

I simply furthered that by defining what tsundere is and showing that it does not fit the scene at all. It wasn't even all that related to Kallen, more so the scene itself.

I am already in a basement.

[Ring]

Well, I guess you could say that she soften her gaze only once but that's not much.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ring

Well, I guess you could say that she soften her gaze only once but that's not much.

Followed by her getting angrier. So I don't think it really floats.

And that's not really tsundere, unless we call all reactions of surprise tsundere.

[sparkle_14310]

Originally Posted by Nilie

Giiiiino!~ Yesh!~ Isn't he love? Heck I'd give up my MillayxLlyod n SuzakuxKallen and XingkeXKallen preference to see him shipped. He's hot stuff, srsly. XD

Yeah I don't know why Gino hasn't had much screen time but I've grown fond of him he's just a likeable character.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Proving your points as false in context to what was shown in the show is not dismissing them. Dismissing them would be ignoring said points and keep reposting the same points despite them being refuted. And considering that you decided not to argue the point farther I respected that and therefore did not respond to your last post on the subject, if you want to bring this up again I'd be more then happy to oblige but I thought you were tired of it. And I wasn't being condescending, merely pointing out the fact that what you post generalizing Kallen fans could be considered as baiting.

No. They're only false according to your own view of the show and I wish people would stop trying to force their own opinions on others. When I first dared to post what I thought of the island scene people automatically went "oh dear no, this is not how you're supposed to understand it at all!". Everything I bring up gets the "ah no, you're seeing it wrong" treatment. This is not discussion. Last I checked I was allowed an opinion.

Originally Posted by Var

Wait what? You quoted a post that simply stated something that was accurate. All that the person said what that they were tired of hearing something that is no correct. I do not see them saying 'This is how it is, and I know it so shut up', it is a 'This is how it actually is, stop making things up'. Would you not also be annoyed if I told you that the word 'violence' meant hugs and kisses?

I simply furthered that by defining what tsundere is and showing that it does not fit the scene at all. It wasn't even all that related to Kallen, more so the scene itself.

I am already in a basement.

The way I see it said person could have been talking about two different "moments" and I guess I picked the wrong one. And seeing as I don't share your opinion on the "I hate you" scene, maybe my brain did take the "I'm right you're wrong shut up" shortcut analysis for the other possible option.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

The way I see it said person could have been talking about two different "moments" and I guess I picked the wrong one. And seeing as I don't share your opinion on the "I hate you" scene, maybe my brain did take the "I'm right you're wrong shut up" shortcut analysis for the other possible option.

I'd be glad to hear your take on the 'I hate you' scene, as I still cannot call it tsundere in a justifiable manner. I see her as being surprised, which is fine, but I cannot call that tsundere unless I go back and retcon what I believed about every other 'surprise' moment in the show.

Tsundere takes more than a single scene to establish, and it takes more than a microsecond of reaction to actually be able to say with any certainty what something was other than 'surprise'. Okkham's Razor.

A tsundere scene with 'I hate you' would usually entail violence after the words, not before. In this situation, it seem more like a truthful statement then anything. I can't really see, as it stands, Kallen not hating Suzaku. Just as I could not see someone not hating a person who just held a gun to their head with the intent of firing.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

I'd be glad to hear your take on the 'I hate you' scene, as I still cannot call it tsundere in a justifiable manner. I see her as being surprised, which is fine, but I cannot call that tsundere unless I go back and retcon what I believed about every other 'surprise' moment in the show.

Tsundere takes more than a single scene to establish, and it takes more than a microsecond of reaction to actually be able to say with any certainty what something was other than 'surprise'. Okkham's Razor.

A tsundere scene with 'I hate you' would usually entail violence after the words, not before. In this situation, it seem more like a truthful statement then anything. I can't really see, as it stands, Kallen not hating Suzaku. Just as I could not see someone not hating a person who just held a gun to their head with the intent of firing.

I'm not saying she's necessarily "tsundere", just that I see her "I hate you" more motivated by annoyance than real hatred here. But I believe I already said that and I don't particularly want to go into it again.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I'm not saying she's necessarily "tsundere", just that I see her "I hate you" more motivated by annoyance than real hatred here. But I believe I already said that and I don't particularly want to go into it again.

I can understand annoyance, the only thing, honestly, that I do not understand, is when you said at sometime before that this was somehow positive for a possible relationship. Even if its not hate, there is no positive in there.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Var

I can understand annoyance, the only thing, honestly, that I do not understand, is when you said at sometime before that this was somehow positive for a possible relationship. Even if its not hate, there is no positive in there.

I never said that ôO The only thing I recall saying about this is something along the lines of "Sorry, that scene did not make me stop thinking the pairing is possible". Or something like that. Never said anything about it being positive

[Discerptor]

Finally being able to express her feelings in an outward fashion at Suzaku rather than harbouring them inside and letting them fester is a good thing for Kallen, and it will result in their intensity diminishing if the show has the characters acting remotely similar to real people. Having such strong feelings but being unable to act only worsens their effect. So I can see how this opens the door for her dislike of Suzaku diminishing, but I don't really see a pairing possibility unless there's some evidence that she already has affectionate feelings for him that will get the opportunity to take over the hate/annoyance's diminished influence. And seeing as I don't think Kallen ever showed having a "thing" for Suzaku, I see that scene as being a "less bad" thing at best.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I never said that ôO The only thing I recall saying about this is something along the lines of "Sorry, that scene did not make me stop thinking the pairing is possible". Or something like that. Never said anything about it being positive

Oh then I remembered incorrectly, sorry. I know a few people popped up saying that this was a boon which just baffled me.

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

And I'm tired of people who think their opinion = fact.

I'm not saying my opinion is fact, it just didn't seem like a tsundere moment, that's all. She has never shown romantic feelings for Suzaku, so when she says she hates him then she does. Until her feelings for Lelouch are resolved, she isn't thinking about no one else romantically until that's done. Though this is my opinion and not a fact. However she can definitely become friends with Suzaku again in time.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

No. They're only false according to your own view of the show and I wish people would stop trying to force their own opinions on others. When I first dared to post what I thought of the island scene people automatically went "oh dear no, this is not how you're supposed to understand it at all!". Everything I bring up gets the "ah no, you're seeing it wrong" treatment. This is not discussion. Last I checked I was allowed an opinion.

Like the supposed tsundere moment of Kallen's that was debunked? Or that a surprised blushing moment when Suzaku made a passing comment how she was more charming with her more energetic personal as opposed to at school? And she said she hated him vehemently this episode so really what else is there to say?

As I said pages ago, I couldn't really care less if you think that Kallen and Suzaku is still up in the air in your opinion. I was contesting your points that there were development to justify them as a viable pairing when the show has clearly taken the direction of developing Kallen with Lelouch.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

I'm not saying my opinion is fact, it just didn't seem like a tsundere moment, that's all. She has never shown romantic feelings for Suzaku, so when she says she hates him then she does. Until her feelings for Lelouch are resolved, she isn't thinking about no one else romantically until that's done. Though this is my opinion and not a fact.

I thought you were talking about the island episode, sorry.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Like the supposed tsundere moment of Kallen's that was debunked? Or that a surprised blushing moment when Suzaku made a passing comment how she was more charming with her more energetic personal as opposed to at school? And she said she hated him vehemently this episode so really what else is there to say?

As I said pages ago, I couldn't really care less if you think that Kallen and Suzaku is still up in the air in your opinion. I was contesting your points that there were development to justify them as a viable pairing when the show has clearly taken the direction of developing Kallen with Lelouch.

See my problem here: Kallen blushing at Lelouch = undeniable proof that she's in love with him. Kallen blushing at Suzaku = "surprised blushing moment". True, Kallen had way more development with Lelouch than Suzaku, but there was something at some point and ignoring it but using the other as a valid point doesn't work. True, Kallen is in love with Lelouch right now. But there's still the possibility, as unlikely as it may seem to you, that she won't end up with him in the end.

And I already said what I thought about the hate statement. You disagree, fine.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

See my problem here: Kallen blushing at Lelouch = undeniable proof that she's in love with him. Kallen blushing at Suzaku = "surprised blushing moment". True, Kallen had way more development with Lelouch than Suzaku, but there was something at some point and ignoring it but using the other as a valid point doesn't work. True, Kallen is in love with Lelouch right now. But there's still the possibility, as unlikely as it may seem to you, that she won't end up with him in the end.

There are just a few problems I want to address. Kallen has blushed to Suzaku for a passing comment, nothing intended to be romantic or such. It was simply a complement from Suzaku. People are often embarrassed or flattered by comments that praise them, especially when they are unexpected. In that scenario, the comment was unexpected, as such the reaction was expected. It is a, more or less, hollow scene and hollow blush.

The times when she's blushed around Lelouch have been, mostly, at times of innuendos towards relationships. As an example: When Kallen asks if she is still the leader of the Zero Squad. Lelouch replies yes but that their relationship should be kept a secret. (Or something along those lines, I can hardly remember exact lines.) To which she reacts in a 'tsundere' manner and turns red. That is a reaction with substance that was triggered by Lelouch's words. They made her react because of what she thought, if Lelouch had said the words to someone else they could have considered it a reference to partnership.

It is not so much that certain moments are being called defacto proof. But that, the far more numerous moments between Lelouch and Kallen have had form and substance, whereas the one, single moment with Suzaku was rather shallow.

But this is, as always, just an opinion.