The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 5]

[Reckoner]

This argument about Yuki is something that you shouldn't even humor Kaoshin.

I think many of you are stretching it quite a bit to defend your beloved studio. You're not defending the anime. A true fan of Haruhi would never want the series blemished like it is now. I adored season 1, and I wish I could say the same for season 2 so far.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I know you actually watched the episode, but I get the feeling a lot of people complaining only saw screenshots. It really isn't that bad if you don't watch it freeze-framed.

Also what's with that reaction? A little intense, huh?

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

"Art style". The animation is still just as stupendous. The ART STYLE has changed.

No, I don't like it either, but there are people that do.

And really, would half of you be complaining if K-On didn't exist? They've been using this art style for Haruhi official art for years.

Uh, no. The art style and type of animation is just bad for this series. It's not done badly, I'll give you that, but it defintely does not fit Haruhi even nearly as well as the style of season 1.

[OkamiNoKaze]

I think when this story line ends or maybe even once the re-airing is done, we'll be able to step back and see the whole picture, and get a good chuckle out of it. Especially those who got so worked up. Experimentation and breaking from conventions seems to be part and parcel with this series since the first episode.

[panzerfan]

Reckoner, can you please add the to me (you) clause when you say that "The art style and type of animation is just bad for this series." You have made a grossly generalized statement over here that would be open to other people refuting your point by stating their own personal exception to this generalization. I won't argue for nor against it, but that way you will be less open to unfound criticism this way.



I personally don't dwell that much about the art style.

Now for my own argument.
What is more critical and interesting in my book are the variations from the original text have been done on purpose.

It goes without saying that overstepping the original parameters of 15,488 is fairly blatant, but in itself such a variation might be easily dismissed as done 'in convenience'. Upon further inspection however, I found that the subtle, yet crucial nature of variation in each anime iteration would strongly suggest that KyoAni had carried out its script intentionally so.

My support for that the subtle changes in clothing choices not following the novels come from the fact that I have found no deviation from Tanigawa's text on loop 15,488 except for the wardrobe change, and also in the purposely done part by KyoAni to go beyond the original loops. Given that KyoAni has actually implemented the novels faithfully in dialogue after my comparison of all existing materials, there is no reason why it is of artistic interpretation rationale for the wardrobe to vary...

to further build on this, a remarkable degree of pattern consistancy in the choice of Yukata is present. As such, it leaves me with no doubt that KyoAni had full intent on deviating from the original novels. My prior posts should be sufficient to build my argument.


PS: This support for my argument has only come due to the sheer number of this very same chapter been retold and done with meticulous attention on selected details, despite the vast difference in art style and scene focus.

Yes, [I do] wish for more loops... I have benefited from these recursions in having a control (novel) to compare with result sets (4 recursions), that is why I am unapologetic about wanting more recursions since additional dataset allows for a more concrete conclusion and a sounder thesis on my part. This, is the kick that I get out of the endless recursion of time. Is that really an insulting proposition?

Surely I jest. It is not as if that I am indifferent to those that are fuming over this trolling act, but that my selfish want for stronger argument overrules my emphatic sentiments.


@Terrestrial Dream
hopefully the new videos won't burn quite the same way as Virtual Boy did... literally.

[aegisofrime]

Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze

I think when this story line ends or maybe even once the re-airing is done, we'll be able to step back and see the whole picture, and get a good chuckle out of it. Especially those who got so worked up. Experimentation and breaking from conventions seems to be part and parcel with this series since the first episode.

My thoughts exactly. I think it's too early to conclude anything without seeing the conclusion...

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

And weren't most people expecting it to end this episode as they were expecting the episode before this to be the end and the episode before that? Pretty comical when you think about it. Now people are expecting even more loops and are kept guessing. Your hope to see an end to this madness like Yuki, who probably has none at this point, is being worn thin.

Like I said before I don't find it a critical issue but it certainly seems to be there goal and it's fairly interesting way IMHO. Most timeloops don't go out of there way to show you the grim reality of the endless repetitions and unexpected failure to break free each time. If this turns out to be only for money or the LOL'S I'll still find it one of the more original things I've seen in anime. Waiting a week only to greeted with another failed loop and then the experience of saying "maybe next time". Half the fun for me is seeing peoples outraged comments when they don't get what they were expecting.

It might be original but really I don't think this whole thing is worth it. It is like Nintendo Virtualboy, an original concept and an interesting idea but it wasn't really worth it. And the ending to this better be worth it for all these repetition episodes.

Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze

I think when this story line ends or maybe even once the re-airing is done, we'll be able to step back and see the whole picture, and get a good chuckle out of it. Especially those who got so worked up. Experimentation and breaking from conventions seems to be part and parcel with this series since the first episode.

But what if the loop ends as we most expected and very simply? Then would you say the loop was worth it? I hope they do something creative with it but I will be very disappointed if the ending isn't worth it.

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think many of you are stretching it quite a bit to defend your beloved studio. You're not defending the anime. A true fan of Haruhi would never want the series blemished like it is now. I adored season 1, and I wish I could say the same for season 2 so far.

Since when did you become the person to define who and what a 'true fan' is and can do? : |

It's a bit egotistical, mate.

[Midonin]

The term "true fan" doesn't hold much water in an argument, since no such thing as a "true fan" can be defined or, for that matter, exist.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Reckoner, can you please add the to me (you) clause when you say that "The art style and type of animation is just bad for this series." You have made a grossly generalized statement over here that would be open to other people refuting your point by stating their own personal exception to this generalization. I won't argue for nor against it, but that way you will be less open to unfound criticism this way.

It's more or less self explanatory that it is an opinion, so I don't feel a need to mention that. There is very little in dicussions such as these that is not opinion. (Sorry if this came out as antagonistic, not my intention as I am writing this post).

Originally Posted by Midonin

The term "true fan" doesn't hold much water in an argument, since no such thing as a "true fan" can be defined or, for that matter, exist.

My statement wasn't meant to be something that I could use to argue my side. I was just stating it as my opinion.

Originally Posted by Jintor

Since when did you become the person to define who and what a 'true fan' is and can do? : |

It's a bit egotistical, mate.

God said I was, or in this case, "Haruhi-sama!" Like I said above, that's just how I feel. Make of it what you will.

[Meteor No.23]

Kyoani had really gone too far. If any fans haven't alienated yet by the three years wait, it will now.

However, now that they deviate soo much already, I hope they will make it worthwhile.

Maybe something like this:-

After all is done and said, Kyon will accidentally said something like "Wouldn't it good if I have a normal high school life without Haruhi and Koizumi?"

And then we get see a very frustrated Yuki hijack Haruhi's power on-screen.(something the novel didn't show)

[Friday]

nagato????

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I can say that you have given me further reason to believe that the SOL label generally gets attached to anything that is the opposite of progressive in terms of character and story. The less that happens, and the less that gravitates the average person towards a scenario, the more it is apparently a slice of life. Thing is, more things happen to me in a day that are more interesting and thrilling then any of these so called Slice of Life anime have to offer lately. Slice of Life doesn't have to be a scenario where nothing ever changes and where the defining trait is that things are as predictable as possible. That's not life. Anyway, this does not bode well for my continuing attempt to actually see what the buzz is around this genre, why it's regarded so highly and why it's looked upon as so brilliant and involving. I'm trying, believe me, but there's just too much of a fundamental difference in what I like upon as ideal and intriguing storytelling and art, and what is supposed to be the draw of Slice of Life. Atmosphere...I'm all game for it, but then I think they've done an incredibly hit and miss job at making use of this Endless Eight atmosphere. It doesn't help that the art style and just the overall degree to which cues and motifs are used keep shifting rapidly in quality from episode to episode and even scene to scene. If this is an attempt at an sort of visual style then it's come across as an increasingly sloppy and confused one.

Deviating a bit from the already heated discussion of the episode, I feel I have to intrude once more in this instance.

There is a reason why Slice of Life as a term is called a Dead Metaphor -- something that's so far removed from its initial meaning that people get confused on its usage. In this case, Slice of Life originally meant, quite literally, "to view a slice of the daily life" of a character, whether in a stage production or a work of fiction. Very often, the focus would be someone mundane, like a worker menial, instead of, oh, the Prince who governed the city he lived in.

Over the years though, the definition of Slice of Life, especially in Anime, changed. It became the catch-all phrase for a genre, where people were doing mundane things -- waking up, going to school, going to work, just interacting with neighbors and friends, the sort of stuff you and I do everyday. Not to say that fantastic elements don't appear -- indeed, one of the most revered shows of the genre, YKK, takes place in a world where humanity is slowing going extinct -- but instead of dwelling on those fantastic ideals, the focus is instead on the people who go about their lives in the fantastical setting.

When S1 of Haruhi first aired, some of my friends joked that Slice of Life was the one genre that the series hadn't poked fun at (despite the fact that except for Haruhi herself and her friends, the setting of Okonomiya could easily be a backdrop for a slice-of-life show). Then, we got Someday In The Rain, which was easily the most... mundane, I dare say, episode of that season. Nothing exciting happened, just a high school guy being sent on an errand by his bossy superior. It the sort of situation that could have happened to any of us before.

[panzerfan]

I received the question of "how many would be enough?" regarding sample size, and personally, I would only be able to say that the sample size is tolerable when

-aforementioned (6) variations in parttime jobs are touched on, with overlap or not
-that Nagato gets at least one (1) instance to complete her statistics without being interrupted,
-that 1/3 odd of no parttime job is mentioned at least once.

Nagato has stated the 2 instances of obon-less runs, so that need no mentioning.

This means that I would need at least 3 loops, and slightly better if given 4. One featuring all the parttime events, one without any parttime, and an ordinary scenario. It doesn't matter if the termination loop falls within these three samples, but it'd be better if there's a dedicated cycle for that. It is crucial that Nagato's statistics are given since specifying the exact cycle allows for deviation of event occurrence to be evaluated.

This would of course indicate 7-8 loops all in all. That would be the case where Endless Eight runs till August. I don't think it will happen however.

Subsequently, my soul would be at ease if Nagato can just spend a whole (1) episode spewing out numbers. However, I cannot imagine the outrage people might have, seeing Nagato taking 20 minutes in the park from dusk to dawn, dissecting the summary metrics.


@Myssa Rei: Code Geass had fewer hard numbers to work with though.

[Proto]

Sorry for taking so much time to reply. I'm currently in the middle of a conference trip (*currently in Montreal. Anyone near here?*), so I only have time to surf the net every third night.

I can say that you have given me further reason to believe that the SOL label generally gets attached to anything that is the opposite of progressive in terms of character and story. The less that happens, and the less that gravitates the average person towards a scenario, the more it is apparently a slice of life.

Well, yes, you have basically nailed it, though it is not necessarely the only case. It is not that it should be a series or an episode without plot progression or any kind of character development for it to qualify as SOL, but that it should NOT be the focus at all. For it to be SOL (at least from my POV) it should dedicate to conveying a feeling or a specific emotion. Take the magazine front example, ARIA. In ARIA there do is an ongoing plot and some character development alongside the three seasons, but all of those are only the background for a series that is about the relaxing atmosphere of Aqua.

Thing is, more things happen to me in a day that are more interesting and thrilling then any of these so called Slice of Life anime have to offer lately.

Could be, could be not. As I said SOL isn't about the plot(which can be boring, unique, or whatever as long as it doesn't stand out), but about the environment. The genre name can be misleading though.

Slice of Life doesn't have to be a scenario where nothing ever changes and where the defining trait is that things are as predictable as possible. That's not life.

See above for how SOL isn't really about the plot, or predicting the characters, but anyway a good counterexample in my opinion would be A country doctor, an Anime adaptation of one of Kafka's works.

Anyway, this does not bode well for my continuing attempt to actually see what the buzz is around this genre, why it's regarded so highly and why it's looked upon as so brilliant and involving. I'm trying, believe me, but there's just too much of a fundamental difference in what I like upon as ideal and intriguing storytelling and art, and what is supposed to be the draw of Slice of Life. Atmosphere...I'm all game for it, but then I think they've done an incredibly hit and miss job at making use of this Endless Eight atmosphere. It doesn't help that the art style and just the overall degree to which cues and motifs are used keep shifting rapidly in quality from episode to episode and even scene to scene. If this is an attempt at an sort of visual style then it's come across as an increasingly sloppy and confused one.

I actually think that the current *surge* in slice of life lovers is more thanks to bastardized hybrids like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, Lucky Star and friends which are more character interaction studies with an ocassional SOL episode (not that they are bad series because of that, but I've been always against their classification) than pure SOL series like Piano, Someday Dreamers or Yokohama Shopping Log. The former have way too much focus on the characters and the antics to qualify as SOL. Obviously Haruhi does not qualify as SOL as a series, but this particular arc is as close as a series of its kind can be I'd say.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Proto

I actually think that the current *surge* in slice of life lovers is more thanks to bastardized hybrids like K-ON, Hidamari Sketch, Lucky Star and friends which are more character interaction studies with an ocassional SOL episode (not that they are bad series because of that, but I've been always against their classification) than pure SOL series like Piano, Someday Dreamers or Yokohama Shopping Log. The former have way too much focus on the characters and the antics to qualify as SOL. Obviously Haruhi does not qualify as SOL as a series, but this particular arc is as close as a series of its kind can be I'd say.

Piano is one of my personal favorites, actually, despite the fact that nothing really happens in the course of the series, and no one really is sure what happens during the actual piano recital...

There's a significant overlap between Yonkoma adaptations, as they often feature aspects of Slice of Life, but cannot be considered representative of the genre at the same time.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled post on Endless Eight.

Wow, more than 40 pages already? I'm reminded of the controversial Code Geass episodes, and the furor they often sparked.

[Wandering_Youth]

Wow...err, I mean. Noooooooooooo!

What the heck is going on with this second season of Haruhi? It was all good and fine with the first three episodes, but after the fourth one it goes all down hill. I mostly skipped over episode four and five just checking to see if there was anything different or worth watching. I guess the only thing worth watching was actually seeing Yuki's tired and depressed face after so many loops. She looks how I feel about this episode, this looping needs to end.

This new season of Haruhi isn't fun to watch so far. *sigh*

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Also this whole theory came up last week too and people were assuming it was a given goal of the producers, so if people are supposed to already know how Yuki feels (again assuming this is absolutely critical and the goal) then why exactly is it important that we go over it again and again? This whole exchange may seem redundant to a lot of people, but then again isn't the content of the episodes on both the surface and assumed hidden levels.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I've already explained how this might not actually be the case. Why do people continue to just assume that they want the viewers to feel how Nagato feels? Especially considering the contradictions I pointed out earlier. Also if there's anybody that can conciously influence the reaccourse of the shows events from within then it's Nagato. She's simply made a concious choice not to, which makes me wonder how exactly we are supposed to how she feels when so many viewers frustrated and outraged and would do anything to have the arc come to an end. Again:

1) How do we know exactly what Yuki might be feeling? She doesn't emote after all
2) Yuki seems perfectly willing to let the cycle continue indefinitely without to much worry about stepping in to end it on her own. It is after all her job to observe and report to the Data Overmind
3) We're seeing this arc from the perspective of Kyon as always and not Yuki. We only catch brief glimpses of her and while it is recognized that she is seeing things in a continuous line as far as the passing of time goes as opposed to the rest of the characters who are experiencing a loop, that's about all she contributes so far.
4) Why would it be so critical for us to feel what we don't even know if Yuki is actually feeling that it would require the arc to repeat 4 times? How does this tie together and why is this that important to the nature of the story arc if it is actually what they are going for?

This "whole theory" came up right after the second E8 aired, not just last week. It's also something that has been heavily discussed ever since the novel came out (or at least since it was translated on B-T), since it's an obvious topic for the original story as well, seeing as it foreshadows things later on (chronologically) in Disappearance, and seeing how it affects the ending of E8 itself.

Go reread E8 and note Yuki's involvement in the very final scene of the story, post-resolution. I'll wait...

...Done? Okay, tell me again that the effects of E8 on Yuki are a minor point of the story. In my mind, and I'm sure in others', it is the point of the story. Especially when you take into account that it was written after Disappearance, and thus the incongruity of her inaction toward the events of E8 is all the more stark, yet at the same time entirely understandable, and evidence of growth in the character.

I would have thought you might have picked this up, considering you're an author and all, and have shown such aplomb at using just the right tone of condescension and just the correct turn of phrase or sarcastic "belittlement quotes" to accentuate your trolls points. (Loved the "Again:". Nice touch. ^_^) Maybe you're just a master of subtlety, and the bigger picture evades you...

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

5) Lastly, the viewers seem to largely being a sense of outrage and discontent at the repetitive and unchanging scenario. Why would Yuki conceivably be feeling a sense of outrage and discontent if indeed the goal is to make viewers feel what Yuki is feeling? Does this seem in character for her? If it somehow is why then hasn't she made any sort of move to address the situation and instead chosen to remain complacent for 15,000+ iterations of the same series of events?

Not all of us are outraged. Not all of us have the overinflated sense of entitlement required for outrage at something like this. This isn't a totalitarian regime shooting peaceful demonstrators. This isn't someone stealing your car. It's a TV show. One no one is paying anything extra to watch. Now, should they package E8(II) and (III) on a DVD by themselves, well, there's some legitimate outrage. But let's let it get to that point before anyone needlessly has a coronary.

Yes, there's a fair bit of confusion, but that's directed solidly enough at KyoAni and Kadokawa that it can be separated from the "story experience". But if by the gloriously vague "discontent", you mean "boredom and restlessness", then yeah, I'd say it's in character considering she's been through it a factor of a few thousand more times than we have. She certainly looks bored enough, and while her limited emotional range doesn't quite let us see "restlessness", her actions (buying the masks, looking at the telescope) could be hinting at it.

As for your questioning of her complacency, it's been answered. Her job is to observe, so she observes. She hasn't gotten to the point (yet) in her emotional development where she is willing to change her position, even if she wants to.

And looking back, maybe that's the point of E8.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I received the question of "how many would be enough?" regarding sample size, and personally, I would only be able to say that the sample size is tolerable when

-aforementioned (6) variations in parttime jobs are touched on, with overlap or not
-that Nagato gets at least one (1) instance to complete her statistics without being interrupted,
-that 1/3 odd of no parttime job is mentioned at least once.

Nagato has stated the 2 instances of obon-less runs, so that need no mentioning.

This means that I would need at least 3 loops, and slightly better if given 4. One featuring all the parttime events, one without any parttime, and an ordinary scenario. It doesn't matter if the termination loop falls within these three samples, but it'd be better if there's a dedicated cycle for that. It is crucial that Nagato's statistics are given since specifying the exact cycle allows for deviation of event occurrence to be evaluated.

This would of course indicate 7-8 loops all in all. That would be the case where Endless Eight runs till August. I don't think it will happen however.

Subsequently, my soul would be at ease if Nagato can just spend a whole (1) episode spewing out numbers. However, I cannot imagine the outrage people might have, seeing Nagato taking 20 minutes in the park from dusk to dawn, dissecting the summary metrics.


@Myssa Rei: Code Geass had fewer hard numbers to work with though.

Are you in my statistics class? We are finishing up our group paper right now. It is due tomorrow.

Maybe you could present this information in a scatter plot with a regression analysis.

[OkamiNoKaze]

I think that skipping things like the obon or specifically the Gold fish, or show them doing different jobs, would be a clear signal that they won't be wrapping it up this loop, which ruins the end a bit. I do think it would be cool once to see Kyon up at midnight, and show some kind of cool transition for the rewind.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

*snip*

A fine piece of reasoning!

cookies when the stingy forum lets me!

So, will we be over a thousand posts before Thursday?

[Jintor]

At that point the thread resets.