2006-01-03, 10:13 | Link #181 | ||||
Tsubasa No Kami
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And Dully wasn't saying anything about controlling people. Basically, it's their genes that do the deciding for them, not what Dully decides. If you're already made up of those things called DNA chances are you wouldn't be able to get a new set of DNA because it's already there and they are your passport to the high life or the not so high life. Once they've fit into the life they were really meant to be, what's the use of exercising control over them? Maximizing their potentials, knowing what actually suits them best...it would take away whatever discontent they had in the previous world and is replaced by blissful content. Who would even think of having their own free will "wrested" away from them, when it was their genes that dictated what they would be in the first place? Can you actually say "please I need another new set of DNA so I'll be able to become a bank manager"? Quote:
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2006-01-03, 11:13 | Link #182 | |
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As for genotype phenotype. If you control the genotype knowing the effects of the DNA you can also control the phenotype that is expressed. It's quite simple in theory to control everyone by the gene. They did in PLANT already in fact. Genetic screening and testing. Marriage and child birth was already decided based on genetic mixture of whose DNA would complment whose DNA to make a nicely genetically diverse yet superior child. Just take it a step futher. Genetic manipulation of the child so that the recombinant DNA is designer to exact specifications (not saying this is what happens with the Destiny Plan, just saying they could do it). Motivational Drive is nuture. You nuture the child properly in a controlled environment and the child will want to do anything you tell it to. |
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2006-01-03, 11:44 | Link #183 | |||||
I disagree with you all.
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We test drugs, we test cars, we test teaching methods, we test just about anything that could be hazardous to know exactly what risks are involved and for what results. We should damn well test grand masterplans for the human race. |
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2006-01-03, 14:07 | Link #184 | |
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As for the "Chinese Language" gene. While true, there is no specific gene that allows you to automatically know chinese. There are genes characteristics that allow people to understand, learn, utilize, formulize and process languages better than others. Control of society is "easy" through government institutions which a form of systems. Mankind manipulate and controls it environment even in today's standards. |
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2006-01-03, 15:37 | Link #186 | ||
I disagree with you all.
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If you're going to shape people well enough for the Destiny Plan, you're going to need much tighter than what we have today. It's not enough to look at a kid's gene and say "you're going to be an engineer, now go to engineer school". For example, something as simple as a personality conflict with a teacher (and that can happen with the best teachers) could ruin the whole thing. |
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2006-01-03, 17:57 | Link #187 | |
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Instead of me proving it, you prove me wrong. And yet we have methods and systems installed to deal with criminals. The justice system (however ineffecient) is based on the idea of reforming criminals so that they can become productive law abiding members of society |
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2006-01-03, 18:40 | Link #188 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Actually I believe that it is very possible to be able to speak a language by genetics. I immigrated from Russia when I was only 3 and a half years old, yet I can speak Russian fluently, although I've studied french for about five years, and CAN'T speak it at all.
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2006-01-03, 18:49 | Link #189 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And how old are you when you start learning French? Language-imprinting becomes difficult past a certain age.
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2006-01-03, 18:54 | Link #190 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
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Ever heard of that female ski champion who, decades after the fact, got disqualified because she turned out to have XY chromosomes, but due to some kind of accident during foetal development grew up as a girl? Genes can't even safely determine our genders and we're supposed to trust them to say who should do what? Who will be the leaders? Quote:
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2006-01-03, 20:03 | Link #191 | |
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How about you prove to me how it's not genetic. The ability to learn, retardation, learning handicaps. And how genuis is any different from the genetics of that just in the opposite manner. Prove to me that a person with no genetic ability to do something can still do it if they have the "poper" nuturing. I'm not saying that nuture takes no part either. I'm saying is that given equal environments, genetics will determine who's the superior. The idea stems from natural selection and evolution. Those that are best genetically suited for the environment which they live in will thive, while those least suited will parish. Therefore, if you are genetically suited for a job (environment of a specific work nature) you will thrive, while people less genetically suited will not. Gene's can determine you gender, they can also determine the mutations in phenotype. Like you said, she was genetically male. The problem is that her genes were also defective and so the expression of the gene to make into a male were suppressed and thus she stayed phenotypically female. It has to do the end part of the Y chromosome. All babies are female to begin with, they only start expressing male traits when the DNA is traslated into an enzyme which causes a chemical change resulting in the expression fo male traits. So all you're telling me is that that person was genetically defective. Your example has no bearing over nature vs nuture since the definition which you define as "boy" or "girl" are social behavioral cues. We already allow genes to determine our leaders. The best and the brighests. Strong, good looking, intellegent. If you're going to put George Bush as a counter argument to this it's neither nature or nuture. It's money and control. Bush has the support of those with the most power to manipulate the vote. Systems. Power to manipulate the environment in which we live. The fact that we have criminals show us that we do not exert enough control in order to deal with such behavior before it starts. I was once told of a society in tranlviania where you could put an dollar bill on the side of the town well and come back a month later and it would still be there. Why? Order in that city was so absolulte that no one dared to steal it. That a child is disobediant and out of countrol does not mean you're disciplining him too much, it's that you're not doing it properly and/or you don't discipline him enough. Control is not absolute that is why we have crime, because you have feedoms that is why you have war, hate and crime. |
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2006-01-03, 20:06 | Link #192 | |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
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2006-01-03, 20:12 | Link #193 | |
Junior Member
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Location: Finland
Age: 40
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I have a friend though, who lived in Israel until he was 7 and that was his first language. Today, he can't speak a word nor can he understand it. |
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2006-01-03, 21:22 | Link #194 | ||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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Heck. Imagine identical twins raised together. One gets run over by a car and limps for the rest of his life. Do they have equal chances to make it as pro basket players? Quote:
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And besides, you said it yourself. "we do not exert enough control". But there is no indication it is possible to correct that. Especially on the huge scale Dully is proposing. I'm sure crime would go down if we could put three cops behind every individual, working in shifts. Is it practical? Is it even possible, considering the fact the cops, too, would have to be watched? |
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2006-01-03, 22:33 | Link #195 | |||||||||
Tsubasa No Kami
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There are some qualities in which genes have a lot to do with it, but it does not mean that ALL qualities have genes related with it. Excelling at one's work could mean that he has the genes in order to do that work effectively or is because of another thing entirely. Quote:
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Dullindal must've his own grand plans in how to do with this Destiny Plan of his, why else would he be confident about unveiling it to the entire world if he wasn't that prepared? (unlike some random someone dispensing love and peace to everyone... ) Quote:
See, the problem here was that ===>Fukuda wasn't able to introduce it properly, and the fact that his Goddess Lacus already considered it ill for human comprehension so much so that she declares wildly that Dully is TEH EVILNESS PERSONIFIED ONEONEONEONEONE~~~!!!111<=== just by the help of one measly little notebook that is like...several years old already. How could you even try deducing that as the fact or the truth when we're taught that in order to make a sweeping statement like that, we need to have more evidence, CURRENT evidence, that is? And what evidences that Lacus had? A moldy old genetics/experimentation laboratory? A little notebook? And a speech? And what sacrifices? Did Dully outrightly blew Orb to kingdom come right away?! He only decided to blow it off from the face of the planet when it disagreed with the Destiny Plan. Breaking the world? The Destiny Plan was all about breaking barriers of the system that was solely responsible for not letting the people of the CE maximize to their fullest potential. How could you possibly say that it could actually break the world? Sure, it takes away free choice, because you can't do anything about it since your genes already decided your fate for you. Sure, it would make them even more mindless sheep. But if you were to make a choice in choosing an inept ruler of free will and a great ruler determined by genes and environment or whatever, who would you choose? A small scale experiment before trying to implement it on the entire universe? Well, OK, but the world sorely needs change that instant (at least, what Dullindal felt, and what the rest of the CE population felt before being made into mindless sheep again by Goddess Lacus et al) so it would be unfair that he only implements it on, let's say, Republic of East Asia, and if it got so good, and that country prospered, the other countries would be at him for not even trying to implement his plan on the rest of the entire planet and so plunge the world into another stupid war. And you do realize it's that war Dullindal was trying to avoid, right? Heck, the Destiny Plan was all about equality in the sense of the genes doing that equality thing for you: no more rich kids strutting it up on private prep schools just because only their family's money afforded them that; other deserving students of more ability than they are coming from not so great families would be able to access great education without having to spend lots of money, and so give them access to the high life in which their old, free will life only got them not so far into the social strata. Quote:
Conclusion: It would raise opposition, and the plan would be thwarted. And taking it to a more understandable level, how would you feel if your parents suddenly decided that your curfew would be, let's say, only up to 4:00 in the afternoon, and they implemented it right away? This is given that it's already implemented, and it was not tested. Conclusion: It would certainly raise opposition, but if those who implemented it would be very vigilant enough, they would only be subjected to a few years worth of opposition until it finally dies out or explode into an all out war with very massive casualties. Quote:
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Dom, the way the EA put up a fight made the show good. But then they have to sacrifice the remaining 45 or so eps in order to put the spotlight back again on the old cast and the shafted nerfed new cast, so it wasn't very good (considering the EA merely became a military entity of cannon fodder and not much else). Bring back the old EA~~~!!!!
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2006-01-04, 02:18 | Link #196 | |
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It's easy for everything to break down instead of being created. It's far easier for a relatively uncontrolled and less maintained system to break down even more than one that is completely controlled and maintained. Our gene are suffering mutation, degredation and destruction all the time. Why does this not affect our very survival? You can get cancer form bruising and impact of your skin and cells. Why don't you? Because even you body has a microcellar system in which to maintain, correct and control this. Of course to an extent, but it is enough to allow us to live. Yes a mathmetician can become a philospher, but which was he better at? No one is equally good at everything they do. They will always be inately better at some things than others. There in lies the idea. Why put him in something he's only second best at given his abilities can be better utulized for the benifit of all in the area which he is the best at. Equal environment. You have two people competeing for the same job in the same place. equal environment. One will be better than the other given their natural born talents IF everything else being equal. You seem to have a problem with the idea of the if part of the statment. It can be accomplished. In the end it doesn't mean their environment will be different either. That would all have to depend on the evironment which is created and regulated for them. You're still arguing around my original arugument when you're talking about car crashes and such. Because they're not in a completely controlled evironment are they if different things happen to them. And yes they may have the same chances of joining the NBA and going pro if the person in the car crash recieve the proper therapy, surgery and rehabilitation to bring him back to the physical condition that he was in before the crash. teratogenic. Do you know why it's bad that you drink alcohol or smoke during pregnancy? Cause it affect and disrupt natural genetic processes of the baby during the developmental period of differentiated cells, genetic cellular expression. The formulation of the baby based upon the genetic code. Oh I'm sorry I thought the "best and brightest" meant that they also had to had to have higher genetic potential than everyone else in order to achieve that "showing" that makes them stand out above everyone else... Prove that it's historically untrue In the end you're arguing that it's going to be hard to maintain, but that's nothing new with any system of control and order. Yet somehow we still manage to maintain ours well enough to get by |
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2006-01-04, 05:15 | Link #197 | ||||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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It is, however, possible to control the environment very tightly. But the more control you want, the more ressources you need. It can't be done on the scale necessited by the Destiny Plan. Quote:
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2006-01-04, 05:24 | Link #198 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm too lazy to answer everything, especially since you don't really seem to understand me. So I'll content myself with:
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Just because it comes from "the best scientists in Plant" doesn't mean they got it right. |
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2006-01-04, 07:32 | Link #199 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 34
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My opinion-
whats a 2nd seasons? To finish off the ends of the 1st or to juice more money What i didnt like -mustve been a re-used scene in every ep! -How one person(Shinn) can get so strong in just a few short(months?)time which there was probably a ton of people(people in orb) who were torn through war but only the one become ace piolet -The re-used concepted such as Stellar appearing before Shinn(Flay of GS) The 3 "un-naturally" boosted people who play a small room(both series) -There always seemed to be a new Gundam during the same ep of both seasons and how they somehow appear when one side is "winning" or where one side loses a Gundam or battle, then later on gets a new suit and somehow>other side -I keep thinking Shinn of a similar Kira of Gundam Seed but more impulsive -I cant remember but did anything major happy in the 2years? that happened inbetween the two series? |
2006-01-04, 07:47 | Link #200 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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@ Anh_Minh
Your belief that Kira and Lacus are the perfect examples of utter righteousness in the world in spite of all the loop holes they did in GSD is either you're blind to or are just blatantly ignoring it. If you think their "corrections" of all the "evil" going on all around them is justified, just by merely saying that one person is evil by means of just a little notebook... right. Saying protecting free will when in truth Lacus would only get the "evil" people behind a new uprising against her ideals Strike Freedomed is quite a hypocrisy in itself. I am not even saying that they're going to do a mass murder. Or trying their hand at genocide. But this getting Strike Freedomed thing is quite near to it, yes? They must all agree to what Goddess Lacus thinks is best, or else Goddess Lacus will get angry and she will have them Strike Freedomed, Infinite Justiced, and now, WORST thing that ever happened since Fllay died, Destiny-ied. So stop putting words in my mouth. Dullindal's involvement with the Junius 7 incident and Lacus' assassination were only shown in magazine interviews and weren't explicitly shown in the anime itself. Um, maybe even the Armory One incident, and what else. Was there any explicit proof in the anime that it was Dullindal who was the evil mastermind of it all? Only in the magazine interviews. His descent to the Dark Side was very, VERY badly done in the anime. And I still go by my stand that testing a grandmaster plan for the entire human race is . If you still think that it should... It's been advertised that it had already so many years of testing or whatever behind it. But since Fukuda screwed it up big time, then we could safely assume that it was never tested at all and so leaves Dullindal as the Big Brother of the Entire Universe, conveniently painting him as the TEH EVILNESS PERSONIFIEDONEONEONEONEONE~~~!!!111 Lacus magically declared him to be. I'll just let that "personal" or whatever attack of yours slide.
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