[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

I disagree, as the meta world existing doesn't invalidate the letters. Obviously the mastermind has something they want to accomplish in the lower reality, otherwise they would've just given up completely and tried to detach themselves from it (Which even does happen in EP4 where Beatrice tries to stay with MARIA)

And I don't think that tiny point is enough to invalidate the things that I make fit.
What do you guys say about Maria and Sakutarou? What do you guys say about Maria saying Beatrice 'exists'? What do you guys say about Ange's whole meditation scene in EP4? My theory fits in perfectly with the way Ryuukishi presents these scenes and how we're suppose to see all of this stuff with love.

Here's the problem: The meta-world is generally not very consistent in its own rules, its internal logic, its presentation of characters, and its narrative arc. About the only way around this if it's a "real place" is that it's a particularly chaotic one. Yet it aspires to claim to be precisely the opposite at times. It also wouldn't adequately address authorship issues. Why should we care who the "real" author of ep3-6 is if Featherine is going to accept the mantle on some other plane of existence?

Ultimately, the meta-world is simply there. We either believe, as you do, that it is separate and uncreated (which is possible but, I feel, less supported), or that it was created and we simply don't know by what. The problem is, nothing says the meta-world has to disappear at the end of everything, and hints have been dropped that it very likely won't, so no matter what we think it is, I suspect we won't get a definitive answer in ep8.

With the Author Theory, do you guys write off the development of real world characters in meta scenes? I'd rather embrace it. Do you guys think there can't be a happy ending for Kanon AND Shannon?

There was. In a book, or at least in Battler's version of a story tied to a book. And that story reflected and respected five prior arcs of character growth for Shannon and Kanon. And gave them a happy ending.

And that's fine, unless you're George, raising a valid (but probably ironic, given that at the time he was speaking as a fictional character) objection. Does it matter if "some representation of you" is happy in another world, be it a world of fiction, a world of thought and debate, a fourth-dimensional conceptual dimension, or even another "fragment" reality? Does it matter to an Ange to whom Battler never came home whether he does in a story or in another world? Did Rika's eventual survival in Higurashi suddenly make all those hundreds of other Rikas any less dead? That's a bit thorny, though George seems a bit too egoistic to grasp the full implications of it. If one world does not have primacy of importance (and even if a "reality" exists in Umineko, it's questionable whether it's the only important plane of the story in the end), which worlds "matter?"

You seem to still be caught on a false dichotomy, which is that a world needs some manner of "realness" to it or everything that occurs with respect to it is invalid. In the end, everything in Umineko is "not real," no matter how many times he tries to lift us "off" the board. However, we look for a hierarchy among the planes because he has presented to us the idea that such a hierarchy exists. If he hadn't been talking about message bottles and internet writers and game masters, we wouldn't even be in this position.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

And I don't think that tiny point is enough to invalidate the things that I make fit.

You're free to discard major plot points to fit your own theory, but I'm not really going to recognize that the letters and the idea of 'written stories' as a 'tiny point' in the entire series.

Not after all these points:
- EP1 ending letters
- EP4 Ange discussing the letters
- EP6 Hachijou and Ange
- EP7 Yasu's imagination

Originally Posted by Keriaku

What do you guys say about Maria and Sakutarou? What do you guys say about Maria saying Beatrice 'exists'? What do you guys say about Ange's whole meditation scene in EP4? My theory fits in perfectly with the way Ryuukishi presents these scenes and how we're suppose to see all of this stuff with love.

Like EP7 showed us, the way Maria can create Sakutarou and the way Ange can create the stakes is the same way Yasu can create Gaap-trice, Beatrice, etc, etc. Yasu even says it herself (himself?), through the power of imagination.

I don't quite see where your theory includes love. Nor does it invalidate the so-called "love" in other theories. As far as I can see your theory simply gives an explanation for the meta-world as it is presented as an alternate realm. Instead, the Author Theory describes the meta-world as an alternate realm of 'imagination' or ... 'written imagination.' The main difference is that if the meta-world is an alternate realm then it must have some kind of internal consistency. With the Author Theory, successive authors can add to, or, unfortunately pervert (i.e. Bernkastel) that meta-world.

Originally Posted by Keriaku

With the Author Theory, do you guys write off the development of real world characters in meta scenes? I'd rather embrace it. Do you guys think there can't be a happy ending for Kanon AND Shannon?

Why would anyone write off development with the Author Theory? You do know what the theory means, right? That the things that have been written down have been written down for us to understand by the different authors.

In fact, you can say that the Author Theory is the theory with 'love,' since it assumes that Beatrice wrote the story in order for it to be solvable, of EP1-2 at the very least, possibly 3-4. (Since the theory goes on to describe how to use the stories to continue trying to solve the 'mystery.')

[Frisko]

Originally Posted by Renall

Here's the problem: The meta-world is generally not very consistent in its own rules, its internal logic, its presentation of characters, and its narrative arc.

Could you point out some particular instances, because I honestly can't remember any significant inconsistencies.

Originally Posted by Renall

Does it matter to an Ange to whom Battler never came home whether he does in a story or in another world?

Given that ANGE was willing to die, so that Battler would be willing to continue the game, and come back home to a different Ange. I'd say yes.

Originally Posted by Renall

Did Rika's eventual survival in Higurashi suddenly make all those hundreds of other Rikas any less dead?

No, but given that people can vaguely remember what happened to them in other worlds, it increases the chances of other Rikas surviving.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

In fact, you can say that the Author Theory is the theory with 'love,' since it assumes that Beatrice wrote the story in order for it to be solvable, of EP1-2 at the very least, possibly 3-4. (Since the theory goes on to describe how to use the stories to continue trying to solve the 'mystery.')

Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable.

You don't really need love to conclude the games are solvable.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable.

You don't really need love to conclude the games are solvable.

You definitely needed it to conclude they were solvable at the time of episode 2.

Originally Posted by Frisko

No, but given that people can vaguely remember what happened to them in other worlds, it increases the chances of other Rikas surviving.

Technically it's possible to argue none of the worlds outside of the ones Rika survived in existed since Rika never remembers when she dies and neither does anyone else for that matter. Outside the anime maybe anyway...

oh and before you ask Hanyuu is an exception.

The staff room of that episode also challenged readers to imagine or write an even happier ending for Rika.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Could you point out some particular instances, because I honestly can't remember any significant inconsistencies.

Oh gosh, there's quite a few:

• Locations shift but we aren't told why. At first we're superimposed on the board, then we're in a tea room, then we're not, then we are again. Then we're in a garden playing chess. Suddenly there's a cathedral. Now suddenly Battler has an office exactly like Kinzo's. Then Featherine's office, which isn't in the same area but then it is. Also there's a stage, except it's not in the meta-world (or is it?). Where do these things come from? Where do they go?
• Rules are different. Ep5 is like a trial but that never really happens again. Featherine's layer is above and separate, then it isn't, then it is again. ANGE is dead, then she isn't, then she's barred from the game, then she isn't.
• Interaction with the board varies in character and degree of integration. Sometimes they're on it, sometimes they're above it. Sometimes they're non-interactive, sometimes they are.
• Relationships between characters vary. People pop in and out and are completely forgotten about where convenient (there are times and places where the Stakes ought to be present, but they aren't, and Ronove/Virgilia just show up in ep3 yet are apparently really important to Beatrice). Some characters are suddenly incapable of doing things they previously could do (Battler suddenly having perfect magic resistance, the Mariage Sorcere alliance rules, etc.). Bernkastel's schizoid relationship to Battler applies here. Also Erika's significant character derail between 5 and 6. Also the shifting loyalties of the Stakes, Siestas, and Ronove/Virgilia/Gaap.
• People completely ignore significant previous events. The best examples are Sakutaro coming back to life (MARIA acts like he's never died and he's present in 1986 magic scenes which should not be possible) and the discontinuity between ep6 and ep7. Also people reaching the Golden Land yet never actually getting there (until ep6 apparently).

Given that ANGE was willing to die, so that Battler would be willing to continue the game, and come back home to a different Ange. I'd say yes.

Yes, but doesn't that create a problem if ANGE is representative of an Ange in "reality?" What if there aren't any "fragments" outside the realm of fiction? What about the Tea Party of ep7 which is strongly hinting that Battler isn't dead in the "present?" Would that even matter? Is there even a "present?"

No, but given that people can vaguely remember what happened to them in other worlds, it increases the chances of other Rikas surviving.

But if you think about it, you still feel pretty bad about all those other incidents. Those memories are going to stick with you. Bernkastel is (in theory) the tangible result of that. Not pleasant.

Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable. You don't really need love to conclude the games are solvable.

You need love for Beatrice to believe that red is true, as the only guarantees we have of that even being the case effectively stem from a self-proving proclamation made by Beatrice herself. Everyone else just plays off her rules. In theory, they could be false. We're taking her at her word on the red, are we not?

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

You're free to discard major plot points to fit your own theory, but I'm not really going to recognize that the letters and the idea of 'written stories' as a 'tiny point' in the entire series.

Not after all these points:
- EP1 ending letters
- EP4 Ange discussing the letters
- EP6 Hachijou and Ange
- EP7 Yasu's imagination

It's not that I don't think the letters exist or have meaning, I just don't believe that they are what we have been viewing. I believe that they are out there, and they're definitely creating a legend of the witch for the wide world to see. I don't think the fact that they're there invalidates my whole theory as it seemed you implied.

Originally Posted by Renall

You seem to still be caught on a false dichotomy, which is that a world needs some manner of "realness" to it or everything that occurs with respect to it is invalid. In the end, everything in Umineko is "not real," no matter how many times he tries to lift us "off" the board. However, we look for a hierarchy among the planes because he has presented to us the idea that such a hierarchy exists. If he hadn't been talking about message bottles and internet writers and game masters, we wouldn't even be in this position.

I disagree with the first statement. It's not that things need to be real, but I find my own conclusion much more satisfying.

I honestly didn't want to attack your theory at all. My main reason for posting this was because I see (mostly before your theory was released, mind you) so many people writing the meta world off as contrived and incomprehensible, while I think this is an incorrect view.

My only real qualm with your theory is that it's incredibly hard for most people to envision and then make complete sense of on their own. In other words, if that is how the meta word is suppose to be presented, it's putting Umineko solidly into the category of something you need to get someone else to explain to you when is done.

EDIT: Let my also clarifying that I'm mostly talking about people who don't go online to discuss the series. I know that Featherine debases people who don't think, but I still don't think that they should be denied a satisfying explanation for the setting.

[Renall]

I think it will necessarily result in a "wait, someone explain this to me" in the end, simply because if ryukishi didn't do that, it would be too easy. See Will Wright's complaints that he's cheating in order to ensure he has a payoff to pay off at the end. I realize what I'm suggesting is complex, but I don't think it's that complex (especially if meta/"real" play so close). Your conception still works, but it would most probably come up in a "I don't gotta explain shit, lol" ending where he punts and decides not to really satisfy anyone. Which he could do...

[Used Can]

Well, he doesn't have to explain the Meta-World, as that's not really part of the mystery, I believe. Personally, I think he already did with Featherine (since Ange did tell her "please don't kill me in such gruesome way again" and Ange only died in the Meta-World). But, either way, if he wants to leave it as something ambiguous, he can.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Renall

I think it will necessarily result in a "wait, someone explain this to me" in the end, simply because if ryukishi didn't do that, it would be too easy. See Will Wright's complaints that he's cheating in order to ensure he has a payoff to pay off at the end. I realize what I'm suggesting is complex, but I don't think it's that complex (especially if meta/"real" play so close). Your conception still works, but it would most probably come up in a "I don't gotta explain shit, lol" ending where he punts and decides not to really satisfy anyone. Which he could do...

If he explains any of the details for your theory then I'll be satisfied. But if he just leaves us to infer everything, while leading us to believe your theory, then I have a problem.

But I agree that he's probably gonna leave the meta world as a whole up to interpretation. That's why I lean towards my theory, because it nicely explains many things. It also leaves the series open to any kind of sequel Ryuukishi might want to make while staying in the universe, and even makes Umineko a logical expansion on Higurashi. I just had this thought, but based on your theory, where you think the When They Cry series can go from here?

But in any case, I thank you for atleast acknowledging my theory. And in the end it only really matters if we enjoy our own interpretation. This is just another case of multiple truths after all.

[Renall]

It can go wherever it wants. Characters can appear symbolically in new roles, and the whole conception of the world can be whatever he wants. After all, Higurashi is a book in Umineko (apparently), yet Bernkastel exists and George has a TOMITAKE FLASH t-shirt.

When They Cry seems to mostly follow themes. WTC5 could be set on a space station or something for all it matters, as long as certain thematic elements still hold.

It's also possible 07th Expansion will shutter to some extent after this project. Ryukishi himself seems to be branching out and working for other companies, and BT died, so it's even possible this would be the end of When They Cry for the forseeable future. But we won't know until he's finished ep8 and decides how he feels about it all.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

It's not that I don't think the letters exist or have meaning, I just don't believe that they are what we have been viewing. I believe that they are out there, and they're definitely creating a legend of the witch for the wide world to see. I don't think the fact that they're there invalidates my whole theory as it seemed you implied.

I'm at work, pretending to work again so I have to make this short.

I think your theory is there in the story and exists in the same way that we can all come up with a theory about the gameboard. For example, the murder events in each episode (1-4 at least) form a complete story in of themselves, outside of influence from the meta world. In the same way, your theory about the meta world forms a good explanation for the meta world, but I bring up the point about the letters to indicate that there seems to be another layer even higher than that.

I'm trying to say that a simpler theory that encompasses more elements, preferably all elements presented so far should feel more satisfying.

Originally Posted by Keriaku

My only real qualm with your theory is that it's incredibly hard for most people to envision and then make complete sense of on their own. In other words, if that is how the meta word is suppose to be presented, it's putting Umineko solidly into the category of something you need to get someone else to explain to you when is done.

I was thinking about Renall's chart and it seems to me that he's not describing how the Author Theory works, but how the Meta World would work with all it's different 'layers.' Author Theory at this point is simply:

2-3 authors -> story (Meta + gameboard)

The idea is that the authors can write violations of the rules in the Meta World in favor of more drama. i.e. Battler seeing only Genji and Kumasawa in EP5, and yet Kumasawa 'turns into' Virgilia when off with Moetrice. So no rule needs to be made up as to the particulars of when she can do that (and why she didn't, or why they pretend not to be the same people some times, etc) other than the author wanted to show us Battler's viewpoint of the gameboard. (That he first and foremost sees them as he knows them.)

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I was thinking about Renall's chart and it seems to me that he's not describing how the Author Theory works, but how the Meta World would work with all it's different 'layers.' Author Theory at this point is simply:

2-3 authors -> story (Meta + gameboard)

The idea is that the authors can write violations of the rules in the Meta World in favor of more drama. i.e. Battler seeing only Genji and Kumasawa in EP5, and yet Kumasawa 'turns into' Virgilia when off with Moetrice. So no rule needs to be made up as to the particulars of when she can do that (and why she didn't, or why they pretend not to be the same people some times, etc) other than the author wanted to show us Battler's viewpoint of the gameboard. (That he first and foremost sees them as he knows them.)

Actually, the chart is meant to create the option that the meta-world does not exist in the stories at all, and even the prospect that the magic scenes do not exist in the baseline stories at all. It leaves open the prospect that they could be, but likewise that they could be entirely separate. I personally believe the descent is more like:

Authors -> Stories as "* of the Golden Witch" -> Meta-World (Reader Interaction) -> Stories + Magic -> Version We Read as "Episode #"

But it could just as easily collapse in the center, if you like.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually, the chart is meant to create the option that the meta-world does not exist in the stories at all, and even the prospect that the magic scenes do not exist in the baseline stories at all.

The problem is that we have Dawn-1998!Ange, who read all of Tohya's manuscripts and remembers 1) herself being horribly mutilated in the Alliance endgame and 2) Battler reaching the truth in End.

Ange has memory errors and remembers being Alliance-1998!Ange while simultaneously believing those events to be part of Tohya's Alliance forgery, so you can argue that she's in a fiction and what she remembers reading is just an artifact of that fiction. On the other hand, the Dawn-1998 fragment is the only source that talks about forgeries for EP3-EP6, so if those forgeries are fabricated by the author of Dawn-1998, doesn't that in turn undermine the idea that external forgeries exist in the first place?

[Renall]

We have a lot of problems there generally. Scenes jumping from Ange/Tohya to ANGE/Featherine, the entire sequence appearing to be recursive fiction-of-fiction-of-fiction, Chick-Beato being brought into Featherine's library seemingly contemporaneously with ANGE reading Featherine the story in which Chick-Beato allegedly appears (which would mean, if in that story she visits Featherine's library, that the scenes about ANGE and Featherine are themselves in the story ANGE is reading).

I think these scenes are essential to untangling what goes where, if indeed anything can go anywhere (as there is the not entirely absurd notion of self-recursion). However, there is a lot of noise thrown in there to the point that we don't really know what is meant to be contained in what.

A proper accounting of what is said in which setting ("real" or "meta") is probably essential to this point, but it could also be intentionally misleading (as Ange asks, which is over which?). However, I see no reason to doubt certain statements made in the scenes even if the scenes themselves are fictions (such as the existences of people who claimed to be Reigonamu/Hachijou, whoever those people were). But there are a lot of problems (like the way Tohya and Featherine appear to have different memories and opinions).

[~Ayane~]

After all, Higurashi is a book in Umineko (apparently),

didnt we all agree long ago that its something Ryuukishi did for the lulz? the same way that in Umineko anime Maria watches Higurashi on TV, or in Umineko manga when she watches a show being hosted by Bern-chan. Or if you really have to treat it like very important hint you could assume Featherine wrote them after observing the developings of Higurashi, but then again i dont think so, since it was mentioned one more time in the story as an actual game and i dont think Featherine writes games..

Actually, the chart is meant to create the option that the meta-world does not exist in the stories at all,

but why would you do that ?
well...i think whatever

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

didnt we all agree long ago that its something Ryuukishi did for the lulz? the same way that in Umineko anime Maria watches Higurashi on TV, or in Umineko manga when she watches a show being hosted by Bern-chan. Or if you really have to treat it like very important hint you could assume Featherine wrote them after observing the developings of Higurashi, but then again i dont think so, since it was mentioned one more time in the story as an actual game and i dont think Featherine writes games..

Yeah, but it's in the text. How do we know for sure? The point is Battler can jokingly talk about it, and since we know nothing about whether any such people existed in a real small town 3 years prior to Umineko, we're in the dark as to whether the series are contemporaries.

but why would you do that ?
well...i think whatever

Because the meta-scenes existing in the stories written in the first-order fiction would create a cascade of bizarre problems that would be neatly avoided by the meta-layer being something else entirely. The possibility of the magic scenes being as well is raised as early as the first episode, which contains absolutely no such scenes.

[~Ayane~]

Yeah, but it's in the text. How do we know for sure? The point is Battler can jokingly talk about it, and since we know nothing about whether any such people existed in a real small town 3 years prior to Umineko, we're in the dark as to whether the series are contemporaries.

no we are not. dont just assume all of Higurashi is a fiction that never happened because Battler once mentioned reading something called "higurashi no naku koro ni". Its enough sad that some people already decided 97% of Umineko is a fiction that happened in somebodys delusional head

[Frisko]

Originally Posted by Renall

Oh gosh, there's quite a few:

• Locations shift but we aren't told why. At first we're superimposed on the board, then we're in a tea room, then we're not, then we are again. Then we're in a garden playing chess. Suddenly there's a cathedral. Now suddenly Battler has an office exactly like Kinzo's. Then Featherine's office, which isn't in the same area but then it is. Also there's a stage, except it's not in the meta-world (or is it?). Where do these things come from? Where do they go?

• The characters like to move around a lot. A meta version of Kinzo's study always existed, it just wasn't important to the plot before it appeared. This can be said for all areas both normal and meta. As long as we don't suddenly have secret passages appearing in places where they've been denied.
  

  Originally Posted by Renall

  Rules are different. Ep5 is like a trial but that never really happens again. Featherine's layer is above and separate, then it isn't, then it is again. ANGE is dead, then she isn't, then she's barred from the game, then she isn't.

  Lambda's style is different from the other Game Masters. I haven't finished Dawn so you might have a point about Featherine's layer. ANGE is the Witch of Resurrection so its not that hard to figure out how she revived. And again different Game Masters different rules.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Renall

  Interaction with the board varies in character and degree of integration.
  Sometimes they're on it, sometimes they're above it. Sometimes they're non-interactive, sometimes they are.

  Characters can move between layers, as for ability to interact, you're confusing piece and meta versions of characters and/or different amounts of anti-magic toxin are involved in different cases.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Renall

  Relationships between characters vary. People pop in and out and are completely forgotten about where convenient (there are times and places where the Stakes ought to be present, but they aren't, and Ronove/Virgilia just show up in ep3 yet are apparently really important to Beatrice). Some characters are suddenly incapable of doing things they previously could do (Battler suddenly having perfect magic resistance, the Mariage Sorcere alliance rules, etc.). Bernkastel's schizoid relationship to Battler applies here. Also Erika's significant character derail between 5 and 6. Also the shifting loyalties of the Stakes, Siestas, and Ronove/Virgilia/Gaap.

  Ronove could have been fulfilling a contract with someone else prior to episode 3, and Virgilia was sealed in Kumasawa. Battler has control over his Endless Nine the first time he activated he was in actual danger, when he was attacked by magic before (such as the beginning of episode 3 with the stakes), he was just going to be revived anyways by Beato, so there was no need to activate it. Also, he claimed to enjoy being attacked by the stakes (sure they thought he was lying, but that doesn't mean they were right). The rules of the Mariage Sorcere have nothing to do with the rules of the meta world. As for shifting loyalties its called character development.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Renall

  People completely ignore significant previous events. The best examples are Sakutaro coming back to life (MARIA acts like he's never died and he's present in 1986 magic scenes which should not be possible) and the discontinuity between ep6 and ep7. Also people reaching the Golden Land yet never actually getting there (until ep6 apparently).

Why shouldn't Sakutaro be able to appear in magic scenes? As for people not reaching the Golden Land thats because Battler kept screwing things up by denying Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Renall

Yes, but doesn't that create a problem if ANGE is representative of an Ange in "reality?" What if there aren't any "fragments" outside the realm of fiction? What about the Tea Party of ep7 which is strongly hinting that Battler isn't dead in the "present?" Would that even matter? Is there even a "present?"

Author theory has those problems, but theories that accept the different game boards and meta world as being equally real don't.

Originally Posted by Renall

You need love for Beatrice to believe that red is true, as the only guarantees we have of that even being the case effectively stem from a self-proving proclamation made by Beatrice herself. Everyone else just plays off her rules. In theory, they could be false. We're taking her at her word on the red, are we not?

Most people stopped considering the possibility that red text could be false after Battler choked in episode 4. Also, I think accepting that particular red requires love for Virgillia rather then Beato.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

no we are not. dont just assume all of Higurashi is a fiction that never happened because Battler once mentioned reading something called "higurashi no naku koro ni". Its enough sad that some people already decided 97% of Umineko is a fiction that happened in somebodys delusional head

All of Higurashi is fiction. The question is whether it is fiction, reality, or completely unrelated to the fictional "reality" of Umineko.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

no we are not. dont just assume all of Higurashi is a fiction that never happened because Battler once mentioned reading something called "higurashi no naku koro ni". Its enough sad that some people already decided 97% of Umineko is a fiction that happened in somebodys delusional head

I'm not so sure about calling Ryuukishi delusional, sounds kinda harsh.