Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[ChainLegacy]

Alright, I definitely accept Tokiomi wasn't try to toss her daughter into a ditch or anything like that. Actually, I've accepted that from the start. I just don't buy this 'no other choice but to give her up' bit. A father should go to all lengths for his daughter. Giving her up out of caring and then not expressing an inkling of interest in how she's doing? It's either bad writing, or Tokiomi isn't as caring as he claims.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Alright, I definitely accept Tokiomi wasn't try to toss her daughter into a ditch or anything like that. Actually, I've accepted that from the start. I just don't buy this 'no other choice but to give her up' bit.

what do you recommand then? If Tokiomi tries to protect both he could end losing both daughters. The matou offer was a god Sent as it allows him to protect both daughters.

The World of FSN isn't a Shounan hero Heaven, where diving head first into a problem is the smart thing to do. Tokiomi is well aware of the price of failure if he fails to protect both daughters.

A father should go to all lengths for his daughter. Giving her up out of caring and then not expressing an inkling of interest in how she's doing? It's either bad writing, or Tokiomi isn't as caring as he claims.

how do you know he doesn't have any interest?

[Shimon712]

But to Tokiomi, doing what he did WAS going to great lengths. Like I said, I personally don't agree with him, I just don't think he deserves so much blame, and I certainly don't think he should be accused of not caring. After all, the matter had been on his mind for years. To him, the Matou's offering came as a godsend.

Besides, even if he does hold a great status as a magus, if worst comes to worst the Magi's Association is not someone you'd want as an enemy.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

what do you recommand then? If Tokiomi tries to protect both he could end losing both daughters. The matou offer was a god Sent as it allows him to protect both daughters.

The World of FSN isn't a Shounan hero Heaven, where diving head first into a problem is the smart thing to do. Tokiomi is well aware of the price of failure if he fails to protect both daughters.
how do you know he doesn't have any interest?

Who is he fighting headfirst? How about taking some of his money, running, and abandoning this ridiculous lifestyle so he could raise both daughters? Why is that not an option? In the real world, that's what pretty much anyone with Tohsaka's wealth would try to do in a situation such as this.

Well, I don't know he doesn't have any interest for sure. I just have a good hint judging by the fact he's more pre-occupied with his wizard game and winning a holy grail then checking in on his kid. Hey Zouken, just here to see how she's doing... You know... Guess that's just out of the question?

Originally Posted by Shimon712

But to Tokiomi, doing what he did WAS going to great lengths. Like I said, I personally don't agree with him, I just don't think he deserves so much blame, and I certainly don't think he should be accused of not caring. After all, the matter had been on his mind for years. To him, the Matou's offering came as a godsend.

Besides, even if he does hold a great status as a magus, if worst comes to worst the Magi's Association is not someone you'd want as an enemy.

I actually don't blame Tokiomi exclusively or anything like that. This discussion started because I find Kariya a much more sympathetic character than Tokiomi and found it bizarre people had the opposite feelings. I still find him to be a bad parent, which is all I've been trying to say.

[Proto]

Who is he fighting headfirst? How about taking some of his money, running, and abandoning this ridiculous lifestyle so he could raise both daughters? Why is that not an option? In the real world, that's what pretty much anyone with Tohsaka's wealth would try to do in a situation such as this.

The magic association would be really interested in getting him, his research and (specially) his vastly unprepared, yet really talented daughters as research 'specimens'. Part of the reason magi keep studying magic generation after generation is as self protection from other magi who would be happy to take on their weaker peers.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Proto

The magic association would be really interested in getting him, his research and (specially) his vastly unprepared, yet really talented daughters as research 'specimens'. Part of the reason magus keep studying magic generation after generation is as self protection from other magus who would be happy to take on their weaker peers.

Oh well, I don't stand a chance against you guys with all this background info on the show. You've heard my take, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel passionately enough to formulate arguments any longer. Whatever the risks, were I her father, I'd try something different than just tossing her away and never checking in again. I understand he did it for what he considered her best interest, but I just don't agree with his mentality of a father abandoning his daughter. Perhaps it is overidealism on my part, I don't know. But it certainly doesn't sit right with me, and his later attitudes seemed to affirm his callousness, especially when he proclaims he is fine with a Rin/Sakura duel to the death.... Just not a very paternal vibe exuding from the guy, know what I mean?

[mAc Chaos]

Pretty much everyone had some stuff they did wrong. Everyone sympathizes most with someone different though based on their own feelings.

[Morisato]

I don't get why he couldn't teach both Rin and Sakura magic. Aren't both Touko and Aoko famous mages even if only one of them could be the head (just like non-mage families).

[Proto]

In order to understand that quite a number of Fate/Stay Nasuverse spoilers are necessary. Long story short, the problem is in the family magic crest, and the fact that only one person can inherit it.

[gim]

Well, actaully I think tokiomi was a good guy until I read chap.14 of the novel, it reveal that he did know that Zouken was dangerous and can not be trust...WTF.

ps. sorry for my bad english.

[yuzen003]

Lots of Nasuverse families train multiple children in magic; the Aozaki, the Edelfelt had twin sisters in an earlier grail war, the Sophia-Ri but only one person will inherit the family crest. If he really wanted to there is plenty of precedent for teaching multiple possible heirs.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by gim

Well, actaully I think tokiomi was a good guy until I read chap.14 of the novel, it reveal that he did know that Zouken was dangerous and can not be trust...WTF.

ps. sorry for my bad english.

Tokiomi was already dead by chapter 14.

[mAc Chaos]

He probably means Kotomine thinking about Tokiomi warning him about how dangerous Zouken is when they meet.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Lots of Nasuverse families train multiple children in magic; the Aozaki, the Edelfelt had twin sisters in an earlier grail war, the Sophia-Ri but only one person will inherit the family crest. If he really wanted to there is plenty of precedent for teaching multiple possible heirs.

it isn't just teaching Sakura magecraft but protecting her long enough so that she can maybe protect herself.

For Rin and Sakura, there were no choices for them in the first place.
One of them has all elements, having five multiple elements as her alignment. The other has no elemental alignments, having Imaginary Numbers only. Both sisters have a rare potential that can be equated to miracles. This had surpassed the limits of so-called natural talents or inborn skill; it is almost like a curse.

if Rin and Sakura were both born with ordinary talents it wouldn't be problem to just teach them both. It was the gift that both were born with that is the curse.

[gim]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

He probably means Kotomine thinking about Tokiomi warning him about how dangerous Zouken is when they meet.

Yes, that part.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

it isn't just teaching Sakura magecraft but protecting her long enough so that she can maybe protect herself.



[/B]if Rin and Sakura were both born with ordinary talents it wouldn't be problem to just teach them both. It was the gift that both were born with that is there curse.

Yes but you're forgetting something very important on top of that.

Spoiler for Points:

Adopting her to another family is something I can accept, but can't agree with, he had the choice of whether to get Aoi pregnant or not and he failed there, therefore he accepted any responsibility of protecting the child that was to come months later as a result, so in a sense, he failed her before she was even born.

Moreover, he didn't have to cut ties and essentially forbid her name to be spoken in the house by her mother and sister. He essentially tried to block Sakura out of his family's mind after she was adopted, which is still a terrible thing to do, and issued a Non-Interference Pact, which would later further drive the two sisters apart.

So while he may have wanted the best for her, he also pissed on the love she had for her family based on his rather alien perspective and opened Pandora's Box, since, as he restricted himself access to her, he left her to the wolves of any family she got into. He loved her, but in his own 'way'. So this was negligence, from an objective viewpoint.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Qilin

I mean, I find it hard to believe that Kariya didn't feel even a little resentment or jealously towards Tokiomi. It was just Sakura's suffering that brought these suppressed feelings back to the surface.

And how exactly does that make him a horrible person? If he had indeed resented and envied Tokiomi all along for taking the woman he loved (which yes, I believe he did), but never acted out on it, not until Tokiomi discarded one of their children and Kariya subjected himself to insanity-inducing torture, aren't those the actions of a good man rather than a despicable one? I don't see what's so vile about a person who tries their best to suppress their negative feelings and impulses. Or do you actually believe anyone who holds any sort of resentment within them is immediately deserving of hatred? If so, I imagine there's very few people in this world you wouldn't despise. Not to say none at all.

I mean, you almost make it sound as if Kariya would've looked better in your eyes if he had made his resentment for Tokiomi known from the start, instead of him having managed to suppress it out of respect for Aoi's decision for so many years and only eventually acted out on it after severe damage to his psyche.

[Proto]

Adopting her to another family is something I can accept, but can't agree with, he had the choice of whether to get Aoi pregnant or not and he failed there, therefore he accepted any responsibility of protecting the child that was to come months later as a result, so in a sense, he failed her before she was even born.

If she had been born with average to moderately high magic potential it wouldn't have been a problem, Sakura would just have been raised as a normal person. It was because both her daughters were extremely,extremely talented (something that was impossible to predict) that it was a problem.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Proto

If she had been born with average to moderately high magic potential it wouldn't have been a problem, Sakura would just have been raised as a normal person. It was because both her daughters were extremely,extremely talented (something that was impossible to predict) that it was a problem.

It wasn't really impossible to predict, given that their mother had a trait to "bring out the best potential in her offspring" that even Zouken knew. Though my other points still stand regardless. Her future was a coin flip on whether she sucked enough to live a normal life.

In Zero Material, one of the reasons Kariya gave up on Aoi and left the Matou household was because he knew about Zouken's plans for her and his children. So it wasn't so much he was dumped(although he didn't have the courage to confess and regretted it as well of course), but he saw the road ahead, and cut it off at the pass. Why do you think Kariya is so ashamed, guilt -ridden and furious with himself seeing this result?

There is a lot behind this whole situation many just don't know.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Thess

Keep in mind that his chariot wasn't at full power (it was only in flight mode) nor did he want to injure Saber gravely, only defeat her in a misguided attempt to 'save' her.

No, Rider was using the full power Gordius Wheel in that confrontation:

Light is at the other end of the world—conquer! Via Expugnatio: Distant Trampling Domination!”

The true name of that which had finally been released, the chariot drawn by divine bulls from which lightning suddenly burst forth. The majestic braying of the divine bulls under whose feet Berserker had been trampled in the first battle could never compare to this.

By calling the true name, the NP is at full release.