Character Discussion - Suzaku

[tenken627]

Isn't the major difference between the United States of Japan and the Special Administration Zone the absence of Britannia Empire rule?

Why would Zero and the Black Knights fight to rid themselves of Britannia empirical rule, and then subjugate themselves back under it?

The USJ and the SAZ being similar makes no sense.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by DN24

1.USJ is Zero's creation, and from what he said he'll gladly accept anyone be it Japanese or Britanian,so in the end it's practically the same but USJ creator(Zero) used pretty words to fool people into thinking that they're ally of justice.I don't like the way he manipulate a whole country into fighting his war against his father!!!

2.It's not a wise choice at all and he'll be kill before he can do anything.

-And that's why he is believable, because he does not discriminate. He values anyone who can contribute to the cause regardless of race or social status, something that Britania has yet to display as a whole and not just one individual. Everyone is manipulated in any given campaign in order to have a cause to fight for. Zero gave them the people of Japan that cause from the very moment he appeared: "to uphold what is noble and fight all forms of oppression".

-Point? Like being in the military as a traitorous dog is any better. That way he can be killed off by his comanders as well as his own people.

[orangejuicetang]

Isn't the major difference between the United States of Japan and the Special Administration Zone the absence of Britannia Empire rule?

Why would Zero and the Black Knights fight to rid themselves of Britannia empirical rule, and then subjugate themselves back under it?

The USJ and the SAZ being similar makes no sense.

I think that he means that the rules/idea of USJ and SAZ being similar. Like Zero and the Black Knights fight to get rid out Britannia rule, and then set up a system that will be very similar to the SAZ and called it the USJ.

-Not true. He could have chosen to become a political figure like Marin Luther king and proceed with his plans that way. Instead he chose to serve a foreign military power without a second thought, a plan that doomed his "I don't want to kill people" speech. We know that Honorary Britanians gain more rights as civilians so why not try being a "peaceful revolutionary"?

False. Being a peaceful revolutionary won't work agianst Britannia. First, the country must have a free press that can report both the pro-government side and the anti-government side, and I have a feeling that if somebody tried non-violent protests, it wouldn't make the news. Second, the country must be a democratic country in which there must be a branch that represnts the will of the people similar to Congress or Parliment, and Britannia is a monarchy with the emperor holding absolute authority. Looking at history, the two most influential peaceful revolutionaries were Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi. However, the countries they were protesting agianst, the United States and Britian respectively both had democratic governments and free presses by then, and gave in due to moral outrage being bad for the political party in control. And as much as I love them, I doubt that would acieved the same kind of success if they were in, say USSR under Stalin.

-Point? Like being in the military as a traitorous dog is any better. That way he can be killed off by his comanders as well as his own people.

I'm guessing that you probably hate FMA as well, since the philosophy of the main character is that to reach his goal, he would give up his pride and become, in his words, "a dog of the military"

[tenken627]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

I think that he means that the rules/idea of USJ and SAZ being similar. Like Zero and the Black Knights fight to get rid out Britannia rule, and then set up a system that will be very similar to the SAZ and called it the USJ.

He means jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

But, I never had the impression that Zero or any of the Black Knights wanted to actually rule Japan. The only way the USJ and SAZ would be similar in that regard is if the USJ became a military dictatorship or an absolute monarchy.

I've always felt that by the story's end, if Japan won its freedom, the power would be shifted from Britannia control to the 6 Houses of Kyoto. Now, the 6 Houses may indeed put in an absolute rule type government, but I never got that impression either.

In fact, the best resolution internally within the Britannia Empire isn't Suzaku doing things his way. It would be for Lelouch to succeed his father as Emperor and work at things from the top (or another more compassionate than Charles), but I'm not sure if the story is heading that way.

[Aquaman OS]

No Lelouch winning as is will just shift the balance of power from Britannia to other countries and Britannian's will be persecuted against. Maybe some of them might deserve it but we've seen that a lot of Britannian's are decent people and not baby eaters. Not exactly a kind and gentle world.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

False. Being a peaceful revolutionary won't work agianst Britannia. First, the country must have a free press that can report both the pro-government side and the anti-government side, and I have a feeling that if somebody tried non-violent protests, it wouldn't make the news. Second, the country must be a democratic country in which there must be a branch that represnts the will of the people similar to Congress or Parliment, and Britannia is a monarchy with the emperor holding absolute authority. Looking at history, the two most influential peaceful revolutionaries were Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi. However, the countries they were protesting agianst, the United States and Britian respectively both had democratic governments and free presses by then, and gave in due to moral outrage being bad for the political party in control. And as much as I love them, I doubt that would acieved the same kind of success if they were in, say USSR under Stalin.

I'm guessing that you probably hate FMA as well, since the philosophy of the main character is that to reach his goal, he would give up his pride and become, in his words, "a dog of the military"

-Perhaps going that route may not have been successful but at least it would have been an alternative. I don't think that Suzaku considered/eghsausted all of his options before he decided to serve Britania. But hey, its not like it makes any difference now. He made his choice so lets see if it lead to him regretting it later.

-Except Edward was never fully capable of throwing away his pride in favour of becoming a "military dog". And incidentaly I love FMA and its characters but that's a whole other story.

[orangejuicetang]

What about Roy G. Mustang then? Who I like even more than Edward though others make disagree.

[Aquaman OS]

Because Suzaku doesn't have a "cool" character type where as Ed and Roy did. That's basically it.

[tenken627]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

No Lelouch winning as is will just shift the balance of power from Britannia to other countries and Britannian's will be persecuted against. Maybe some of them might deserve it but we've seen that a lot of Britannian's are decent people and not baby eaters. Not exactly a kind and gentle world.

Lelouch winning doesn't automatically mean Britannia loses its power balance in the world. It will depend on what happens.

And yes, innocent people are the ones most hurt. Innocent people were hurt in Britannia's invasion, and innocent people will be hurt with Britannia's evacuation. That's life.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The thing that keeps getting me about this whole SAR are these.

If Nunnally takes over, what's the point for Suzaku to become KoO to govern that specific area? (Sure he could pick another one). Since she is a separate entity from Suzaku then she should be able to start fresh with them on this whole SAR thing.

The next part is "about changing" the world from within. This goes with Lelouch as well. I mean at least Lelouch got off the part about it's not just about Japan. Suzaku on the other hand is the same, it's all about Japan. Sure you change Japan but what about the rest of the world? Good lord guys Japan's not the entire world.

[Aquaman OS]

It is for Suzaku and just about everyone in the Order except for Lelouch and maybe Kallen, and even then only because of her budding friendship with Lelouch. You think the majority of the Order cares about the rest of the world aside from Japan? Don't think so.

As for Suzaku's Knight of One plan, who knows. He might abandon that idea if SAZ works out. He only mentioned that before Nunnally's announcement which he didn't know about ahead of time. He might just decide to leave everything to Nunnally. If anything that gives him less motivation to follow a command that goes against Nunnally's interests. If she's taking care of Japan he doesn't need to worry about being a KOR anymore.

[AdvocatesConspirator]

I'll be lazy here and state something that probably has been addressed. Suzaku has his own geass given him by V.V. during the incident which took place on the Island of God (Episode 19). Also during the SAZ ceremony, C.C. becomes deeply concerned of a certain something about Suzaku, which creates more suspicion.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by AdvocatesConspirator

I'll be lazy here and state something that probably has been addressed. Suzaku has his own geass given him by V.V. during the incident which took place on the Island of God (Episode 19). Also during the SAZ ceremony, C.C. becomes deeply concerned of a certain something about Suzaku, which creates more suspicion.

Suzaku already has physical capability and skills that are of a supernatural origin granted while as a child. That has been conformed and not in doubt. Thus there is no reason for him to be given any Geass for C.C. to worry about what he is capable of. We will know exactly what Suzaku can do by the time the series end, but I doubt it would be something as simple as a Geass.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DN24

Zero's USJ is exactly the same thing so I can't see why the Japanese should accept USJ but not Suzaku's plan consider that less Japanese lives as well as Britanians lives will be sacrifice if they accept Suzaku

The SAZ's existence comes from without. It's a whim of a Britanian princess, nothing more. Like a petting zoo, but instead of being nice to rabbits, you're nice to Elevens.

The USJ's existence, in theory, comes from within. It is its own nation, with its own ideals, depending on its own strength to remain whole. It should, in theory, go on even once Zero is no more.

Of course, that's just the theory. Zero has a poor record in making people strong and independant of him. But even if they're still far from that ideal, they're working for it. Or were.

[AdvocatesConspirator]

well i'm thinking more along the lines of Suzaku becoming a contract giver, it makes sense if we use the mutant theory.

[Ice_Bullet]

Originally Posted by AdvocatesConspirator

well i'm thinking more along the lines of Suzaku becoming a contract giver, it makes sense if we use the mutant theory.

so far, he hasn't protrait or reveal any factors that can lead him to becoming a geass giver. yes you may argue that now he can't die. but thats not of his own ability. its from lelouch. If he had a geass, wouldn't he already confronted the emperor and geass him to make him KOO? or someting stupid like that.

yes. the point that suzaku only cares about japan but lelouch cares about the whole world proves many things.

suzaku only wants to rescue his people from being oppressed. he doesn't much care about anything else. whereas lelouch is looking at a bigger picture. he plans to free the world from britinnia's grasp and let the world be at peace again. Don't you think suzaku is just narrow minded and selfish?

[k//eternal]

It would be really strange if the Geass command to live caused him to gain eternal life, making him into a Geass giver.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet

yes. the point that suzaku only cares about japan but lelouch cares about the whole world proves many things.

suzaku only wants to rescue his people from being oppressed. he doesn't much care about anything else. whereas lelouch is looking at a bigger picture. he plans to free the world from britinnia's grasp and let the world be at peace again. Don't you think suzaku is just narrow minded and selfish?

From what I can tell Lelouch cares about himself, his sister and his revenge over everything else. If anything I'd say he's alot more selfish than Suzaku.

Now Japan may be what matters most to Suzaku, but that's probably because he feels he lacks the power to change the whole world. And hey, it seems his actions in the EU contributed to a peace treaty.

But I guess people really feel like treating Lelouch as some golden savior and Suzaku as the devil incarnate.

[orangejuicetang]

Lelouch isn't really planning on freeing the world from Britannia's grasp so much as he is trying to make the world a better place for his sister and get revenge on his father. If he saves the world while doing it, that's wonderful. If the rest of the world goes to hell while he acomplishes his goal, he couldn't care less. I really don't see Lelouch actively fighting Britannia for the purpose of freedom and liberation as much as vengence. The freedom and liberation and things are just side benefits and if they come, then great, he will use that to further his goals, and if they don't, then thats also fine. He even states that the United States of Japan is just a means to a goal, which would be vengence on his father and a better world for his sister. If this better world for his sister means a living hell for other people, do you really think he would care?

[DN24]

Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet

so far, he hasn't protrait or reveal any factors that can lead him to becoming a geass giver. yes you may argue that now he can't die. but thats not of his own ability. its from lelouch. If he had a geass, wouldn't he already confronted the emperor and geass him to make him KOO? or someting stupid like that.

yes. the point that suzaku only cares about japan but lelouch cares about the whole world proves many things.

suzaku only wants to rescue his people from being oppressed. he doesn't much care about anything else. whereas lelouch is looking at a bigger picture. he plans to free the world from britinnia's grasp and let the world be at peace again. Don't you think suzaku is just narrow minded and selfish?

You call Suzaku a narrow minded and selfish person just because he doesn't care about the whole world?? He wants to save his own people-who hate him and ready to kill him-is being narrow minded and selfish? No, the guy is not a saint but he's still far from what you said.If Suzaku is really that kind of person you think he is,he would have enjoyed his KoR status and forget about Japan by now.
But he came back, let a million people go free and promised to save those who remain.
And i doubt that Lelouch really cares about the world,his goal has always been to take down Britania and by doing so it will benefit the world,just like how he "saved" Japan because it would hurt Britania.
Honestly,how many people can do what Suzaku did? Joining the enemy army to save your own people, he's not welcome in both Britania and Japan but he still wants to save them.He deserves some respect not hatred.