Xbox One

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

@0utf0xZer0

I have a new question for you, since you seem convinced that Microsoft is on the up-and-up here.

Why exactly does the camera and microphones have to be on all the time (and recording everything it catches, from what I've read) when using the XBox One? Then when you combine that with the every 24 hours internet check-in...

Because the camera is part of the user interface and if you want to control it some other way you're a luddite who probably thinks Windows 8 should have a start button like Windows 95 through Windows 7 did.

No seriously. That's totally a Microsoft move. Building a giant spy network not so much.

Also, it's not clear yet that the cameras will be on all the time. Several articles contradict it and say the camera won't function in low power (re: standby) modes. Plus, even if it is always on, it's not like they can do anything if you aim it at the wall when it isn't in use.

Voice, on the other hand, presumably is always on since you can boot the console via voice. Most likely they'll address the privacy concerns and what data they collect in a dry, boring End User License Agreement at some point. Because they're Microsoft.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dextro

And Kinect is mandatory to avoid the same pitfall they fell into on the 360: optional, non-bundled peripherals are NOT used by majority of games. Microsoft wants games to use the bloody thing so they do everything they can to make sure everyone has one functional.

Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The fact that the Kinect is bundled with every console is already sufficient to allow majority of games to take advantage of it.

Making Kinect MANDATORY to use the console at all, however, is clearly malicious. Because there is no consumer benefit to have Kinect being necessary to turn the whole thing on.

Also, it's not clear yet that the cameras will be on all the time.

The camera will be on when Microsoft want it on. They have the power to remote-alter the software every time you perform the mandatory daily login. It's not the fact that it is on all the time; it is that you as a customer has no real control over it. You only have MS's promise that you could turn it off on your end; but MS reserve the right to turn the camera back on on their end when they want to, unless you stop performing the daily login and turn your console into a doorstop.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

..Plus, even if it is always on, it's not like they can do anything if you aim it at the wall when it isn't in use.

Think you are underestimating kinect2. That thing has highly sophisticated IR sensors, i mean can even determine your heart rate at some distance. It probably can detect bodyheath through some walls.
It wouldn't surprise me that MS has offered Xbone to governments (health departments) and private medical companies, to be used for diagnosing patient form a distance.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The camera will be on when Microsoft want it on. They have the power to remote-alter the software every time you perform the mandatory daily login. It's not the fact that it is on all the time; it is that you as a customer has no real control over it. You only have MS's promise that you could turn it off on your end; but MS reserve the right to turn the camera back on on their end when they want to, unless you stop performing the daily login and turn your console into a doorstop.

1) Depends on how the hardware design. Power states are often implemented at hardware level.
2) Invasion of privacy can be the basis of a civil suit in the US. Pretty sure they're going to define what the data is used for in the license agreements.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Making Kinect MANDATORY to use the console at all, however, is clearly malicious. Because there is no consumer benefit to have Kinect being necessary to turn the whole thing on.

There was no real consumer benefit to removing the start button from Windows 8 either. They just wanted everyone to adopt to new UI paradigms or something. I suspect the same here.

Originally Posted by Sides

Think you are underestimating kinect2. That thing has highly sophisticated IR sensors, i mean can even determine your heart rate at some distance. It probably can detect bodyheath through some walls.
It wouldn't surprise me that MS has offered Xbone to governments (health departments) and private medical companies, to be used for diagnosing patient form a distance.

The thing about IR being able to see through walls is, as I understand it, myth. Even glass can screw with IR imaging.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

1) Depends on how the hardware design. Power states are often implemented at hardware level.

The worrying thing is that MS told us "yes, you can turn off the Knect, but we will give you more details later on HOW."

The fact that MS needs to delay announcing the presence of a power button is frighting. It shouldn't even be a big deal to have an off switch for a piece of hardware; but it seems MS can't even tell us that. Instead, it's "we will tell you how to turn Kinect off when we are ready to announce it". That's not good news by any stretch of the imagination.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The thing about IR being able to see through walls is, as I understand it, myth. Even glass can screw with IR imaging.

^^ don't take my comments too serious.
IR sensor just pickup heat radiation, it cannot see anything, it just detects heat.
In most case it will just show areas on a surface where heat escapes to the side side where the camera is located at.
Glass don't screw it up thermal/IR images, they just do their job.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

A console does not have to be the best seller to succeed. In fact, Nintendo hasn't been #1 since the SNES days. They still made massive profits with the Wii.

The Wii was the best seller of the last generation. They have sold close to 100 million units while PS3 and the 360 are still 70-80 million


Really i think nintendo had a very smart approach... instead of directly compete with Sony and 360 they found a way to coexist. Gamers often have to choose only one console over another because its too hard too afford them all... By making a console that was more affordable and providing a game experience completely unlike what sony and MS was offering, they in turn made themselves more inviting as a second console purchase... not many gamers have both a 360 and a ps3, but you can find many that have a wii and one of those two

They tried to keep it going with the Wii U, but it seems like the new game play experience they tried to make has not gotten remotely the same positive response that the wii mote did.

and though the wii did get hurt by holding back on graphics i think it would have been smart if both sony and MS had held back. Developers move at the rate of the limitation of consoles, no faster. When it comes down to it, those high end graphics and abilities do drive up production costs; better gameplay not so much... frankly the PS3 and the 360 probably could have kept going for a few more years. Take things slower so that it either becomes easier to afford higher end specs in games or for the gamer base to grow larger to help make up the costs.

Originally Posted by takai

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/...-talk-tv-at-e3

Called it. It was really smart what Microsoft did actually. In the first conference they said the name, showed what it looked like, and showed what it can do entertainment wise. And then at E3 it's going to be nothing but games. This was actually great planning by Microsoft. Unlike Sony who is going to be explaining multiple different things other than games, which will most likely result to a poor E3 showing.

No... no it wasn't. You only get ONE chance ot make a first impression and Microsoft screwed their's. Really, the simpliest reason why it was idiotic is that they could have done BOTH. Nothing was stopping them from making their announcment event 2 hours long to give them plenty of time to cover the XBONE's Tv features while at the exact same time giving gamers what they wanted to hear. Microsoft has been thrown into complete damage control mode since the event to try and appeased disappointed gamers, and they will likely have to keep doing that even past E3... trust is difficult to build but easy to break and Microsoft broke it. The weight of a bad reveal and the rumors that spread won't be forgotten over night and it may hurt them.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

They tried to keep it going with the Wii U, but it seems like the new game play experience they tried to make has not gotten remotely the same positive response that the wii mote did.

Look how many iphones, ipads and andriod phones are on the market, where is the "wow" appeal of a tablet controller in this market in that regard? The motion control "wow" appeal was off the scale even if it ended up being a fad and/or dulled by Kinect and Move.

and though the wii did get hurt by holding back on graphics i think it would have been smart if both sony and MS had held back. Developers move at the rate of the limitation of consoles, no faster. When it comes down to it, those high end graphics and abilities do drive up production costs; better gameplay not so much... frankly the PS3 and the 360 probably could have kept going for a few more years. Take things slower so that it either becomes easier to afford higher end specs in games or for the gamer base to grow larger to help make up the costs.

They have held back, the R&D costs for the ps4 compared to the ps3 is laughably small in comparison. Slightly tweaked "off the shelf" products compared to the Cell?

Rumors are ps4 can launch @ $349-$399 and only have a slight loss on BOM (roughly figured out to be $450) compared to the ps3 launching @ $599 and having a build cost of over $800.

Xbox build cost is probably higher thanks to edram and kinect, but if they want a kinect which each box they had to take that hit.

Likewise Nintendo's Wii U is expensive thanks to the tablet controller (it costs $150 to get a replacement...) and the 3DS due to the 3d without glasses magic.

Remove kinect, remove the tablet, have a DS screen and the prices of Xbone, Wii U and 3ds would be much cheaper, if they wanted it to be.

Sony focused on more ram to "future" proof their machine a bit more.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Sony focused on more ram to "future" proof their machine a bit more.

Sony got burned on PS3. That's why I believe Sony would not implement any hardware features that are not absolutely essential. Everything would be optional, as peripherals or attachments. The idea is to make the core PS4 console as cheap as possible, to abandon the over-priced image they had with PS3.

[Westlo]

Good news for Sony.



The "eye" is not bundled with the ps4 which means we should be looking @ $349-$400. I believe Sony will take a slight hit in price because they're going to be making that cash back with the ps3. Like the psx and ps2 before it the ps3 should continue to sell for quite a while yet, especially with the ps4 not being backwards compatible and having titles like The Last of Us, Beyond and Gran Turismo 6 to come.

[Nightengale]

For the PSEye to be sold separately is kind of a blow towards Microsoft in its own way.

It disincentives 3rd-party developers to really build a real 'motion-experience' game, considering that one of the console would not bundle the motion-control camera alongside. It mildly reduces the potency of Kinect in gaming, given that it's rather clear that the Kinect is the way, way superior hardware compared to Sony's.

Of course it bears a risk to Sony as well if Kinect really manages to catch on and demolishes all competition like how the Wii was, but I highly doubt it given the market's adoption of motion-control gaming. ( or lack of )

[Westlo]

I can see Kinect being used for shit like "Time out!" for NBA Elite (lol), basically stuff that means nothing.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Westlo

I can see Kinect being used for shit like "Time out!" for NBA Elite (lol), basically stuff that means nothing.

When Mass Effect 3 touted their Kinect voice-recognition implementation, I realised that was what our the majority of the 'motion-control' experience is going to look like for the next 3-4 years at least.

Voice-commands and random wagglings here & there.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

When Mass Effect 3 touted their Kinect voice-recognition implementation, I realised that was what our the majority of the 'motion-control' experience is going to look like for the next 3-4 years at least.

Voice-commands and random wagglings here & there.

Fundamentally, when we talk about game controls, it is all about ease of use, convenience, and precision.

Ease of use and convenience is what is needed for someone to try the new controls. But precision is what makes or breaks the final decision to keep using it.

Wii promoted the idea of using your whole body to play tennis, but in reality people just want to wriggle their wrist a little during play. Motion detection is cool but too inconvenient. And with voice activation, it is generally faster to press a button instead.

Game pads have evolved for many years. There had also been plenty of third party attempts to "improve" them. It is actually pretty hard to find an attractive alternative to the tried and true controller.

[Tong]

So uh, PS4 wins since it's been confirmed that it has no limitations regarding games or online features.

What will M$ do now? Change their minds?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Tong

So uh, PS4 wins since it's been confirmed that it has no limitations regarding games or online features.

What will M$ do now? Change their minds?

It is not up to MS, they would have to get an OK with the people who demanded those additions first.

The Online every 24 hours limit can be removed by a software patch. The Kinect... They better install an off Button or they are in trouble.

Used games limits? That would die off once they realised they aren't earning any money.

One way or another, they can't change quickly. PS4 will have a head start while MS sort themselves out.

[defki]

MS will do nothing as long as the Xbone doesn't bomb.

And as much as I hate to say it it will sell. Marketing works wonders and MS knows how to market things.

Once they show the games people will buy this thing.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Vigo

MS will do nothing as long as the Xbone doesn't bomb.

And as much as I hate to say it it will sell. Marketing works wonders and MS knows how to market things.

Once they show the games people will buy this thing.

And what happens to the normal people who weren't informed of the 24 hour login requirement, and bought the console not knowing they can't actually USE it?

They would return the Console to the store. And buy a PS4.

It doesn't matter how good your marketing is, if a large part of the consumer base can only use Xbox 1 as a doorstop.

Further, if the restriction on used games go through, no doubt the clerks in the store would be instructed to promote PS4 when ever possible.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by Vigo

MS will do nothing as long as the Xbone doesn't bomb.

And as much as I hate to say it it will sell. Marketing works wonders and MS knows how to market things.

Once they show the games people will buy this thing.

If I say to ANY of my group of friends or family, that you would at least need internet connections and not be able to sell your games, I doubt they would even consider it an option.

Even the casual can see it's a bad deal! One would have to have lived in a cave to get a Xbone, without at least knowing about its drawbacks.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vigo

MS will do nothing as long as the Xbone doesn't bomb.

And as much as I hate to say it it will sell. Marketing works wonders and MS knows how to market things.

Once they show the games people will buy this thing.

If Sony had followed Microsoft's lead, you might have been right.

But now, I doubt it.

We now know that the PS4 will have significant advantages over XBox One. Knowledgeable gamers will be aware of that. I can easily see many console gamers going with PS4 (or PS4 and WiiU) this generation.

I'm sure that the most hardcore fans of XBox's exclusives will still buy that console, but Microsoft may get little else besides that. And if they get little else besides that, they're going to be hurting, I think.