Urobuchi Gen: Discussions on his Stories and Style (spoilers ahead)

[Malkuth]

A troll is a person who creates controversy disrupting constructive discussion, in order to enjoy the degrading quality of dialogue, and usually with minimal participation. It's not a person who holds controversial ideas or uses controversial methods, though many favor labelling the later as trolls when losing the ability to discuss constructively. From what I read, I assume that since most of his works are not presenting clear distinction between good and evil, but blur the lines is disturbing a lot of viewers. In addition using each the medium's strengths in order to create and crush expectation and amplify emotional responses from his audience makes him even more controversial. I mean these are the "complaints" I understand, but have nothing to do with trolls.

Originally Posted by EmagEvil

... Because he said that he's making a maho shoujo anime with love & kindess, and at episode 3 OMGWTF LOL troll!

Hey! it was an anime about love and kindness, probably not how 10YO girls watching mahou shoujo would understand it, but definitely as adults define them.

Originally Posted by EmagEvil

... BTW just get the 3 endings of Saya no Uta, it's not bad for a decenie old visual novel...

Dunno, I liked Saya no Uta. It took advantage of the medium, created a captivating atmosphere. There wasn't anything trollish about it

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Because he constantly makes you get attached to characters and then he kills them.

Which is a good thing, death is trivialized by the hordes of redshirts

[Triple_R]

Gen's reputation for killing beloved characters is really overstated, imo.

Madoka Magica - 3 named characters of import die during the narrative, all but 1 are revived (and remain alive) through a butterfly effect caused by Madoka's wish.

Fate/Zero - Of course loads of characters die. The whole premise of the show is Mortal Kombat, magus style, so what do people expect? If anything, Fate/Zero takes a helluva long time getting around to character death given its premise. And one of the death scenes is amongst the most glorious death scenes I've ever seen. Most characters can only dream of a sendoff that great.

Psycho-Pass - 3 main cast members die. One is the main antagonist. Most main cast protagonists survive, including the two most important characters in the show.

Gargantia - 4 named characters of note die. Two are robots. The other two are old men. One essentially dies from old age.


This is just standard issue character death for any serious adult-aimed action-oriented show. Gen's not unusually bloodthirsty - He just puts the story first, like a good writer should, imo. And that means some characters die, since a certain amount of character death used well usually makes a story better, imo.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Because he constantly makes you get attached to characters and then he kills them.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Which is a good thing, death is trivialized by the hordes of redshirts

In my opinion people exaggerate and overemphasize Urobuchi's tendency to kill his characters as if it was something unique or absolutely peculiar. In reality he isn't really that much worse than many other authors that deal with the same kind of stories that he writes.

Let's take the "Butcher bingo" that is popularized on 4chan. When you try to apply it to "Suisei no Gargantia" you realize tha "Valvrave" that ran at the same time scores a lot higher on it.

In my opinion Urobuchi isn't much more violent than many other authors and he isn't even that much more moral breaking, Go Nagai was already on that level several decades ago, but Urobuchi's violence has a certain peculiar flavor, like I can tell that a violent or horrid scene is something that he wrote simply by watching it, it's a particular kind of perversion that is really unique of him, and that I can't quite describe with words, but it's really about quality not quantity.

[Kanon]

I believe Gen earned this reputation because of Phantom where everybody and their mothers died. I agree with you two that it's overstated. His other works are rather standard when it comes to character deaths except Fate/Zero but it's a battle royale, so naturally there will be deaths.

It kind of irritates me that people call him and think of him as a butcher because he really isn't one.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I believe Gen earned this reputation because of Phantom where everybody and their mothers died. I agree with you two that it's overstated. His other works are rather standard when it comes to character deaths except Fate/Zero but it's a battle royale, so naturally there will be deaths.

It kind of irritates me that people call him and think of him as a butcher because he really isn't one.

Personally I think that rather than senselessly killing characters, Gen is very good at taking plot threads to a logical, but not hoped for, conclusion. I think this is what gives his stories their particular flavor and is what makes some people consider him a troll. What happens is simple: usually what logically must happen next to a character isn't exactly what the fans want or expect and that can be seen by most folks as the writer trolling them.

Madoka Magica's infamous third episode is a rather fitting example of this. The audience was expecting Mami to gloriously win and show just how awesome being a magical girl was when what we got was the arguably more realistic result that's possible in any kind of battle: a loss with a heavy price to pay.

Btw I personally think that Fate/Zero and Gargantia aren't particularly good examples of Gen's plot weaving abilities since the first had it's ending set in stone from the beginning and the second only had a couple of episodes written by him (and it showed).

[Fireminer]

All of these above thing, they are just pale to what he gonna do to my favorite Kamen Rider. Although not particularly good as Fourze, Wizard at least has made a stand of it own. Now all I could feel is dreaded when thinking about Gaim and the future after it...

Seriously, it's like living through a male version of Puella, but more confuse.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I believe Gen earned this reputation because of Phantom where everybody and their mothers died. I agree with you two that it's overstated

Well Phantom sort of depends on the route,there's a bunch of them.The anime had a high kill count but I wonder how much of a say Urobuchi had in the adaptation.

Saya no Uta has a really high kill count as well in two of the three routes, but then again it is a horror story with one of the character definitely being too dumb to live.

Saya no Uta is maybe my favorite Urobuchi story,I won't deny that it can be quite flawed but it's the one where I got the most emotionally involved (and confused ).

[Akito Kinomoto]

As of this moment I haven't seen Gargantia, Expelled from Paradise, or Requiem for the Phantom, and we all know Aldnoah.Zero isn't his baby. I have seen Blassreiter, but I'm not sure how much of that is him; it still might help in illustrating my point though.

Spoiler for Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Fate/Zero, Psycho Pass, Madoka Movie 3: Rebellion:

So after watching Madoka Movie 3: Rebellion, I realized that one of the features of Urobuchi's works is his penchant for character light. For all the criticism he gets for his works being needlessly depressing, there are some characters in those settings with a lot of inner strength.

Mami kept her head held high (pun not intended) and carried herself well despite having no friends to lean on before she met Madoka and Sayaka. There's also Kyouko, and while not the most initially congenial of friends, there's a constant inner strength to her that's managed to keep the past in the past, pass the point where most magical girls would have crumbled. Brutally honest, perhaps, but is at least looking out for her friends. And then there's Madoka, becoming Hope itself and ending her show on a high note, giving Homura the strength to continue fighting (for a time...), and effectively stopping the wishes of the magical girls from being corrupted (Sayaka included. Madokami rest her Soul Gem).

The next stop is Rider and Gilgamesh. Yes, you're reading that correctly. Out of all the servants in Fate/Zero, those two managed to fight without their past regrets weighing heavily on their mind. Not twisted into obsession like Caster, not driven to anger like Berserker, nor fighting for atonement like Saber. Antagonistic though Gilgamesh is, he knows how to live. It's why I consider him a light in Fate/Zero, and Rider's optimism speaks for itself. The finale also does a fantastic job of reinvigorating Kiritsugu's hopes (not that a few scenes from him didn't show him being the most natural father ever, showing that he grew a heart even after the events of his childhood), passing the miracle torch down to Shiro. Like Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Fate/Zero also ends on a high note.

With Psycho Pass, the show doesn't end on too much of a positive note, only vaguely referencing how humanity will eventually have no need of the Sybil System. That said, one of its enforcers (or should I say inspectors?) in Akane is mentally strong to an absurd degree. Her mind literally doesn't get clouded no matter what she goes through. And despite learning the truth about what the Sybil System is, she continues to do her job because of her belief in justice, or at least in the stability of society. Compare this with practically all of the enforcers, realize they're all going through similar stress, and that's one strong lady you've got there (as of season one. I haven't watched season two yet).

These three shows have a sense of light in common. Yes, the stories are dark and the settings are often places for them to suffer instead of them suffering in the setting, but the thing that identifies Urobuchi's brand of darkness are the specks of light--the characters I mentioned--that stand out that much more. Certainly, there's regrets abound on them, but when they can keep on going to the point their hue or Soul Gem literally won't fog beyond repair, the thing I've always (subconsciously) took away from Urobuchi's works is not tales about the darkness itself, but rather what you are in the darkness. Somewhere, in Urobuchi's alleged cynicism, is a hopeful dying to get out; maybe Madokami is a projection of his belief that Hope will win out in the end.

This is why it took Madoka Movie 3: Rebellion for me to realize this about Urobuchi's works, because this film has no hope (unless we're counting that brief moment between Sayaka and Hitomi, but considering the literal setting it might mean fuckall). We plunge into Homura's true desires--how she really wants to live, what she really wants in life--desires that overtook her when despair finally caught her. The closest thing to hope in this film is Homura's escape from her labyrinth with Madoka following along; the former, with a tearful smile, says she won't regret anything anymore, she won't hesitate anymore. And indeed, she didn't hesitate to imprison Madoka. Unfortunately, unlike Gilgamesh, doubt is still on her mind. She knows just how fragile her labyrinth is, and she wears the most frightened look on her face when she stops Madoka from remembering what she really is. For good (bad?) measure, it also reopens some of Sayaka's old wounds.

...Now I'm going to stop talking about Rebellion before I feel like doing this again:


But yeah, Urobuchi's works have always had an element of light, strength, and hope to them. I almost get the sense he read the criticisms of his works being pointlessly dark, and went you think PMMM, F/Z, and PP are dark? LET ME SHOW YOU DARK and thus Rebellion was made.

Btw, since I'm guessing everyone and their okasan who bothers with this thread will have seen Urobuchi's stuff, is the spoiler tag even necessary?

[GDiddy]

All I know is that thank god, Urobuchi is writing the Psycho Pass movie. Because the second season sucks BAD.

[Archon_Wing]

I had little interest in season 2 when I heard Urobuchi wasn't gonna be there, because the series was already pretty fragile in terms of quality. I mean season 1 was good, but IMO it had some pretty big issues that would easily go down the shitter in the wrong hands. I didn't care for a continuation without him, really.

I could say the same about Madoka though, lol.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Moral of the story: things ironically go bad when Urobuchi's not the one making things bad.

I'm still trying to wrap a quality measure around Rebellion tho. I know it'd be up there for me, don't know how up there yet.

[Archon_Wing]

Rebellion is fine; it's just that when you drag on a story, you just have to keep clanging and stuff to make it louder than it was before.

A lot of Madoka relied on shock value and twists to make it go, and thus I felt this was really an anime that wasn't meant to be stretched out and made into an expanded universe. Eventually you're going to have to go into some 12th level thinking where you subvert the expectations of a subversion of a subversion that runs under the expectation that's a subversion that knows it's a subversion but can't appear to be a subversion because the viewer knows that this is a subversion that subverts the previous subversion.

Well, of course they want $$$$ so what do I know?

[GDiddy]

Is Rebellion any good? I'm interested in the Madoka movies, but I also don't want to sit thru what's basically a two hour recap.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Is Rebellion any good? I'm interested in the Madoka movies, but I also don't want to sit thru what's basically a two hour recap.

Then skip the recaps and watch rebellion??

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Then skip the recaps and watch rebellion??

Agreed. That's what I did.

If you've seen the TV series, there's no need to watch the two recap movies before watching Rebellion.

[Dr. Dahm]

I used to think he was pretty much the most interesting writer in anime currently but my opinion on him has since soured quite a bit as a result of a number of unsettling trends that really just don't reflect well on him as a responsible creator of content and make him seem like more of a brand if not an outright glory hog be it unintentional or not.

Firstly without mincing any words, this guys name moves product and pretty much anyone can see that. I think it's a pretty undisputable fact, but by all means if anybody wants to argue it I'm totally open to that discussion. In any case I'm going to continue with assuming this as a given and having noted that it kind of feels of late like there's going to become this emerging trend where big productions companies, specifically Sony Music Entertainment and it's partners and subsidiaries are banking extra hard on his name brand recognition post Madoka Magica success in order to sell their original series.

Obviously a lot of producers do this with other big names like Miyazaki and the like but the thing is IMO those people have actually contributed a whole lot more to anime and popular culture than someone like Urobuchi who has mainly brought shock value and a resurgence of the late 90's popularity of deconstructing and presenting ideas in newer and more unpleasant lights matched up with directors with a penchant for artistic flair and bizarre pseudo symbolic imagery. Specifically in his case it seems to be the ideas of justice, morality and to a lesser extent moe. Again this would be perfectly fine as well if it felt like he actually completed his stories and ideas more often than not or reached some particular culminating point, but aside from Madoka Magica TV which felt like the most complete thing I've seen from him (since rendered incomplete and in the midst of a really bizarre plot twist that seems to as he suggested to have been specifically designed to split the fanbase and shock fans) none of his stories feel particularly complete or like he's really even all that involved in their creation beyond just slapping his name on it and getting credit as the original creator.

This really seemed to have started with Suisei no Gargantia where he basically wrote the first episode, presented this dichotomy between a rigid space faring utilitarian society that puts overall survival and protocol ahead of any sort of moralistic bent (this seems to be in practically every work he's ever been involved in despite him never seeming to ever come to any sort of particular conclusion or statement on the matter which makes me wonder what exactly the point is then) and another society that works as a community to likewise survive in a difficult environment but maintains aspects of it's culture that we as the viewer can at least recognize and identify with. Then after setting things up he seemingly disassociates himself with the project until the final episode only to essentially come back and tackle and resolve nothing.

With Madoka Magica Rebellion, similar idea, it sets up this whole new plotline and shocking plot twist/clusterfuck and then he basically refuses to actually tackle it leaving the situation up in limbo and claims if there's to be a sequel he won't be back. Fate/Zero, basically taken from someone elses work where they'd already written out most of what was supposed to happen and there's a "sequel" to eventually resolve the clusterfuck at the end. Psycho Pass introduces this plot twist with yet another dystopian utilitarian ends justify the means society controlled by brains and then....doesn't resolve the plotline or really attempt to tackled it particularly deeply and again leaves it up for someone else to try to do something with in the sequel who basically gets all the blame for dropping the ball that might as well have been a blind suicide pass that it was anybody's guess where it was going. Aldnoah.Zero the jury is still out on, but again he's credited as the Original Creator, writes 3 episodes and then a couple month later at a convention when he's getting grilled on events in the story infamously gives a sort of belligerent sounding answer on suggesting that if someone has a problem with the story to blame the guy that picked up the story and responsibility from him for dropping the ball and that he can't answer any of the questions about the cast because he didn't come up with them and the storyline. If that's the case though how can he really be credited with being the original creator if he can't answer any questions about the story? Why should other people take all the blame for having to clean up his ideas either? How is that fair exactly?

Amidst these trends, stories of his panel at Anime Expo basically being a showcase of Nitroplus and his apparent awesomeness, him ducking any questions about his philosophy at the convention and just kind of coming across as a bit of a creepy dude hugging a life sized version of the character from his latest movies and the whole sunglasses thing I've kind of lost a ton of respect for the guy. Like you can't really do that as far as I'm concerned and still expect to be considered as an industry spokesperson and headline staffer. It's not fair to fans of your work and not fair to the other staffers to have to keep shoring up the blame for someones inability to take full responsibility for their own apparent creations and see them through to the end. Miyazaki as an example often candidly stated to have hated directing, but he was always there at the office and always committed and very forthright about his feelings with regard to a lot of things even if he knew people might not like what he had to say. Urobuchi...I don't know, I think he's just embraced this persona and ideal surrounding his pretty thematically similar and kind of messy if interesting contributions to the anime scene of late and not in a good way.

So yeah that's basically what I wanted to talk about. I still think he's an interesting writer but it strikes me as if he's going to continue to be a major figure in emerging new faces of the industry and reap all this success that he has a lot of growing up to do and begin to take more responsibility for his apparent original creations if he's going to win that regard back that I had for him as recently as a couple years ago. If not...well I would hope that sooner or later something is finally going to come back on him and people will say look you're this high on the list of credited people and your name is in this large size font (ahead of some people with far more experience and contributions to anime as a medium than he has in the case of Expelled from Paradise), you kind of have to own up to responsibility for the criticisms being leveled at this work already and give the fans the answers they're looking for.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Well, the worst thing I can say about Rebellion is it's unnecessary. But hey, it improved one of the characters big time, doing for her what the series did for Sayaka, but intentionally instead of accidentally. Anyway, I'm really hoping the guy stays on board if the Rebellion conflict is going to be resolved; I don't mind ending the story there, but it feels like if anyone else touches this it's just gonna collapse. If somehow the Madoka franchise devolves even despite Gen's involvement...maybe I'll be able to empathize with Evangelion fans.

[Triple_R]

Well, there has been one definite trend with Gen over the past couple of years, and I can understand why Dr. Dahm has reacted to it the way that he has.

That trend is that Gen's degree of involvement in projects he's a part of has steadily declined, from almost complete control/involvement in Madoka Magica and Psycho-Pass to minimal control/involvement in Gargantia and Aldnoah.Zero.

Now, it's easy for me to fall into the cynical thought of "Companies now realize how big a name 'Gen Urobuchi' is, so they hire him to do just enough work so that they get the promo bounce from having his name attached to their project, but they don't let him handle more than a few episodes because they have their own creative ideas that they want to push".

If this is in fact going on, and everybody involved knows that this is what's really going on (including Gen himself), then it is arguably disappointing.

However... I don't know how anime companies typically handle "writing staffs". It could be that a situation like Madoka Magica is very much the exception, and not the rule. It could be that writing work for anime originals are typically group efforts, with no one person handling it all or most of it. If that's the case, then maybe Gen is just slipping back into the industry standard, and we should cut him some slack?

I'd like to hear from someone very knowledgeable on such things, like TJR, before I take a firm stance on this.

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Well, the worst thing I can say about Rebellion is it's unnecessary. But hey, it improved one of the characters big time, doing for her what the series did for Sayaka, but intentionally instead of accidentally.

I don't think that anything that the series did for Sayaka was accidental. I think what the series did for Sayaka was very much intentional.

But I see your point on Rebellion, though I would argue it improved multiple characters, including the one you're probably thinking of.

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by mecharobot

In my opinion, he writes rather juvenile stories. Taking some existing thing from his childhood and giving it a twist (always the same) makes for boring and offset stories. Like in Madoka, he should have focused more on building the setting and characters than trying to force his ideals and sado-tendencies. As it is now, it's just stuck between a childish morning TV-show and his limits of not seeing beyond anime tropes.

Going back to a post made earlier in the thread I can't even begin to describe how much I think this hits the nail on the head as to how I see him and his works on average. Again doesn't stop them being kind of interesting and entertaining but man that about sums it up in the long run.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Way I see it, he deliberately gives emphasis on the negative side of things and belittles or outright ignores the positives. Gen seems to give little weight to happiness because of its fleetness compared to the whole picture of negative things.

Maybe similar to the "evil human nature" philosophy, that human (or in Gen's case, everything) is inherently evil (or "negative") and any action or happening outside of that is a form of lie or a mere fleeting illusion.

As thought provoking as his works may be, I can't help but see him as "incomplete". To illustrate: he has braved and explored the labyrinth of life and have had the exit in sight. However he was either unable, unwilling or outright refused to take that step to the exit, and instead stayed and wandered still in the labyrinth. In other words, he is "trapped" in his negativity.

This also strikes me as very true as well. This strikes me as how he sees the world more or less and that his shows tend to be stacked towards upholding and promoting this belief and it sort of startles me a bit how much people seem to have accepted it as a given without considering the other side of things. I wish he would offer that other side of things a bit more in his stories if I were going to hold him in the same esteem a lot of people seem to but I don't think he gives equal measure to the positive things in life and our better virtues as a sentient and introspective species, hence where I think the juvenile and incomplete assessment comes into play. I just get this impression of a guy that really doesn't have a whole lot of life experience, genuine insight and inspiration to draw on, just a really cynical way of presenting ideas that are already very represented within the otaku sphere that at the same time also runs counter to expectations more often than not. I don't think I've ever been given more to consider when it comes to any of his works than strictly that.

Also from earlier in the thread

Originally Posted by Gen Urobuchi

"I started as a PC game writer, and then moved into anime, and it's become what I'm known for... but I'm only doing anime for the next two years"

Well I think we're starting to see our answer on that a little bit more. Last I heard he was saying he was considering getting into live action as well because he doesn't find writing for anime challenging or fulfilling enough and the way he's been a small factor in projects that seem to be by and large credited to him with top billing at that I kind of have to wonder if he's on his way out or not. Personally I wouldn't be terribly broken up about it as I think anime as a medium needs to find it's own way and each work it's own unique identity rather than relying on the ideal of one guy which is what I'm kind of concerned is starting to happen a bit much of late. Even as much of a figure as someone like Osamu Tezuka was, if it weren't for people getting fed up with him always getting all the credit and say in work at Mushi studios anime would never have become what it is today. It needs more than just one superstar creative type at the forefront of everything he's involved with. More than just a Miyazaki (look at where Ghibli ended up once he finally decided to call it a career) or Anno or yes a Gen Urobuchi.

He's a little too overexposed right now and kind of casting a shadow over the entire industry IMO, always dominating the discussion and interest level for anything he's involved with and again I think that hinders more than it helps projects in finding their own identity in the long run. Besides if you ask me he's kind of made the points he seems to really want to make multiple times already with multiple works and I kind of wonder if there's really any point in continuing to go that route in this medium and if he hasn't come to the same conclusion. To me it'll just make any future works he has to over boring and a simple retread if he keeps getting used the way he has been unless he finds some sort of new sources for inspiration and new ideas to tackle which it doesn't look like he's particularly capable of if I'm being honest from what I've observed over the years he's been active in the anime industry.

That said money talks and I'm sure there are many interested parties that would give him anything he wants just to be able to continue to use his name to help move product while he's still the ideal so we'll have to see what happens and if 2014-15 really is his swan song or not.

[Reckoner]

Gen ultimately always supports his main characters who hold naive or optimistic views in the face of a cruel world. He definitely puts his casts through the mill, but he's not as dark as people make him out to be. Usually there's always hope that things will change for the better and the characters will continue to march on towards that goal no matter how bleak things seem.