Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Kiritsugu's choices and actions are by no mean "universal", let alone "absolutely correct". That being said, there is a line of logic and conviction in there, beyond simply being a "douchebag".
I can't say I entierely agree with everything he has done, but most of what he has done has a specific reason which is actually acceptable to some degree, moreso in this scenario due to the circumstances going against him.

I'm more disagreeing with the whole point that "he enjoys doing that" and "doing for the hell of it".

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That doesn't stop the fact the prana supply is -not- dependant of the contract at all, so your point is moot.It has been demonstrated by Caster and his monster that they would be self sufficient if they have enough supply from "somewhere else". What matters with a servant is the prana, regardless where it comes from. Another point, but outside of Fate Zero prove that as well, but going any farther would be a spoiler.

no my dear, it is your point which is moot.

no master, no link, no link servant disappears, it is simple as that.

no contract= no binding to the world. no binding = disappear (with maximum few days delay if you have certain ability) even with unlimited mana supply





no contract from the magus: servant gets no mana from him/her (except if the magus was part of the contract with the master)
--------------
edit:
contract provides: binding to the word and mana supply if the master has mana(or knows a volunteer)

servant needs both binding and mana to stay in the word.

Karyth cant provide mana (after his injury), so no servant with limited mana would choose him.

contracts can be done by: summoning, using command seal or having "affair", i cant see any remaining servant having affair with him to get binding and still disappear due lack of mana,

[Haak]

I think in this case it might have been worth putting in a scene where Kiritsugu talks about all the possible ways he can save Natalia without endangering the lives of others, but painfully confirming there's no other way, but perhaps the time constraints simply didn't allow it.

But it should be obvious why he did what he did, anyway. He's already experienced what happens if he doesn't act, and in the most brutal possible way. Such experiences are unlikely to leave you with room to compromise or be flexible.

[mAc Chaos]

A Servant needs two things to stay in the world.

A Master, and a mana supply. The Master themselves is more like an anchor that causes the Servant from disappearing back into the spirit world, like a balloon getting carried off by the wind. But they also need mana to do anything.

[Klashikari]

1) There is no such thing as "part of the contract" for the non master magus: a contract binds the Master and the Servant without any other party (Lancer even mentioned that there was nothing "legit" done with Sola).

2) True, the contract serve as the binding part, and? Actually your example (which I had to delete) supplement the fact that no matter how incompetent the master is, a simple contract can do the trick. And that's without the CS. I guess I should redirect the discussion there as we are too close to spoilers.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

But in real life, solders go back into war zones to save stranded comrades all the time, even though they're putting themselves at risk.

Individual soldiers may do so, but no military commander in his right mind is going to risk the deaths of dozens of soldiers in order to save one private (Natalia). Part of what seperates the brutal realities of warfare from the romantacized, heroic portrayal of it in fiction is that in real life, it really is a number's game.

Originally Posted by brandon279

for me it was mass murder crime, the japanese had declared their acceptance of conditioned surrender to the world and lets dont forget that the target of the bombs: civilians

the aim of bombing was to scare Russia, nothing more.

Then you disagree with the vast majority of historians out there, who argue that the alternative would have resulted in a much higher death toll.

[Alaya]

I think a couple of people forget something.

1. It's not only thinking about the outbreak. We have to think about dealing with the Church and Mage Association too. For example, if the plane landed but the zombie/bees spread out into the airport, then both factions would be summoned. In that case, we can basically say goodbye to New York's airport and to a certain extent, some area of New York too. Both faction would just kill everyone in the area or in the worse case, turn the airport area into a war zone between the two factions too.

That's the possibility that Kiritsugu tried to avoid the most, in my opinion.

2. A servant can stay in the world, as long as they can get a mana supply. And there's another mana supply than a Master, people's life force. Since magical energy composes of two fraction, ode (life force) and mana (obtain from the environment), a Servant can suck people life force to sustain themselves until he can find a new master.

I would not say Lancer would do that, but it's still a possibility.

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Individual soldiers may do so, but no military commander in his right mind is going to risk the deaths of dozens of soldiers in order to save one private (Natalia). Part of what seperates the brutal realities of warfare from the romantacized, heroic portrayal of it in fiction is that in real life, it really is a number's game.

And that's why Kiritsugu hates Heroic tales :P It just fools people and hide the brutality of war under the premise of valor.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Then you disagree with the vast majority of historians out there, who argue that the alternative would have resulted in a much higher death toll.

how many of those historians know that Japan had already declared conditional surrender?
how many of them know that bombing civilian is war crime?

and how many of them are non American?
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@ Alaya


your point number 2 is wrong, any more explaining would be a spoiler

in point number one:
the church cant eliminate the whole airport if the bee are within the plane, so the primary question: Can Natali land the plane?
she seemed sure that she would land it if Kiritsugu stopped making her laugh.
Kiritsugu didnt bother to ask if she can or not, he had a stinger ready from the beginning, why bother asking?
thats the retarded mentality that i am trying to make you (and other people) realize.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by brandon279

how many of those historians know that Japan had already declared conditional surrender?
how many of them know that bombing civilian is war crime?

and how many of them are non American?
==============
@ Alaya


your point number 2 is wrong, any more explaining would be a spoiler

in point number one:
the church cant eliminate the whole airport if the bee are within the plane, so the primary question: Can Natali land the plane?
she seemed sure that she would land it if Kiritsugu stopped making her laugh.
Kiritsugu didnt bother to ask if she can or not, he had a stinger ready from the beginning, why bother asking?
thats the retarded mentality that i am trying to make you (and other people) realize.

Why is that the primary question for Kiritsugu? Whether or not she could land the plane doesn't address his ideology's primary concern; even if she somehow landed it, what likelihood was there she actually exit the plane without even ones of the bees sneaking off with her and escaping into a civilian population? I've seen it said on this thread before that Kiritsugu always goes for the 0% risk option whenever possible. If that's true, then obviously he would never risk even one bee escaping with Natalia.

[brandon279]

why would he ask? !!!!

may be to avoid unnecessary death of dear person?
may be to preserve a good partner so they would be able prevent more incidents thus saving more lives than just Kiritsugu alone?

well, the question is the primary one because it differentiate between :
1- it was necessary
2- it was easy

1- Emya is sane
2- Emya is bastard.

[biodude711]

I'm actually curious, what's with all the Kiritsugu hate, saying that he is a bastard?
Is it because of his character? His actions?

[Ithekro]

As a historian, I am quite aware the the Japanese were attempting to find a conditional surrender. The Allies wanted unconditional surrender. The Japanese were attempting to make new negatiations with the Soviets (right before the Soviets double crossed them and invaded Manchuria). Basically the war would have continued for several more weeks regardless due to the combined stubbornness of the Allies and Japanese governments. The fire bombings would have continued and if negotiations failed, or the military could rally up the people to fight on, invasion of Japan. Tens of thousand more would die from starvation as well as the combat and bombings.

And there is the knowledge factor. The Americans can't read the Japanese minds. If they did they would have figured out that they felt backed into a corner by our reaction to their invasion of China. With the combined mindsets of the Americans and the Japanese, there basically was no way to avoid that war. And because of all this, the Atomic bombing was also unavoidable. Because the alternative would have been more dead and no proof of the horrors of the bomb. Those horrors have stopped us from using it in combat, even once, since 1945.

Somedays you just have to left people die for the greater good. Churchell was forced to let a city be bombed even though the British knew the Germans were coming. Because if they did anything ahead of time the Germans would have found out the british had broken their codes, and then change them, endangering all Allied operations in Europe ans Africa.

It isn't pretty. It isn't kind. But sometimes it is the most logical solution to the problem.

[brandon279]

form what i know: Japan tried to use Russia as representative for negotiation for many days, Japan sent a message (received by the Americans) declaring that they would surrender but with better conditions (not removing the emperor) (the funny thing: usa never cared to remove him, it was just a justification).

it was avoidable.


but the administration wanted to scare the Soviet.


it is simple to accept if you are non American, but if you are one, your bias would prevent you.

[Click This]

Just saying, a MANPAD can't down a widebody A300 like that. Damage yes, shoot down, no.

[Ithekro]

Also landing is the most difficult part of flying. One could land it, but usually someone with single engine experiance would need tlo be talked down by someone from the tower.

But that still doesn't answer the other problem. The mage and churches policies about no witnesses in magical/supernatural activities.

[Click This]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Also landing is the most difficult part of flying. One could land it, but usually someone with single engine experiance would need tlo be talked down by someone from the tower.

But that still doesn't answer the other problem. The mage and churches policies about no witnesses in magical/supernatural activities.

If they know how to use ILS, then they should be good.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by brandon279

why would he ask? !!!!

may be to avoid unnecessary death of dear person?
may be to preserve a good partner so they would be able prevent more incidents thus saving more lives than just Kiritsugu alone?

Ok...but I don't see how that provides a reasonable answer to my question about why her ability to land the plane should have been his first concern. Again, from what I'm gathering about Kiritsugu from everyone here, I don't think that first point about her survival was actually his primary concern, even if he wished it could be. And the second one is extremely hypothetical, and I doubt he'd have acted upon such a scenario.

[Ithekro]

Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.

I'm thinking it might be 1982. I know that's nitpicking a bit, but this is based on evidence (since people were unsure a few pages back when it took place). Look at episode 17, time stamp 12:42 on the UTW version. Kirei's document on Kiritsugu specifically mentions 1982, and as this event is supposed to be a big one as far as his reputation goes (Kirei and Tokiomi were talking about it in the first few episodes), it's likely what's being referred to.

[Click This]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.

ILS was very advanced in 1981/1982. She could have easily landed the jet.
Also, there's a fluke with "no witnesses" as the cockpit has a CVR(Cockpit voice recorder) which can withstand some of the larger explosions out there and blabber away Kiritsugu's entire conversation.