Little Busters ~Refrain~ - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Oh gimme a break! At least those two have personalities! Kurugaya's popular because she's awesome at literally everything. But that's the exact reason why she's my least favorite. I don't hate her or anything (I don't hate ANYONE in this show) but I feel quite indifferent towards her.

Eh, Kud has some personality I suppose. I can't really say anything about Komari. And Yuiko isn't awesome at everything; she obviously lacks some degree of social skills and there's a good reason why she has no friends, unless you think people like someone that's prone to violence. While "perfect" characters can be boring and meaningless, it doesn't mean you can frontload flaws and define a solid character either.

Anyhow, I was gonna say let's just agree to disagree, but then, you decided to push your point too far.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Come on and admit guys, you like her because fanservice.

It's amazing what people can come up with when they want to sling mud.

This logic fails on a number of levels. Just because one likes her because of fanservice, doesn't mean that's the only reason, even if that's the only reason you can think of.

You're guys and that's obviously the type of chara she's supposed to be. The fact that she's the only girl in the school who refuses to button up her blazer is plenty evidence for that.

My friend who's watching the show doesn't care for her either and big surprise: my friend is a girl.

I'm gonna watch the Hana Saku Iroha movie, so I guarantee we don't need your supply of sexism against guys.

[Triple_R]

Let's be fair, guys (and I use that term for a reason), Kurugaya is clearly intended to be a dream girl, and she works well on that level. But obviously that's going to resonate more with male viewers than female viewers. "Fanservice" is probably not the best term to use in getting that point across, but I see where Chiibi is coming from.

For female viewers looking for a female character to relate to, I'm inclined to think that those with family issues (Haruka, Kud, Komari) are probably the easiest to relate to, since almost everybody has at least some family issues.

[Archon_Wing]

Haruka's story had the most effect on me though. I'm not female, sadly, folks.

[Demi.]

I enjoyed Haruka's arc too. And I didn't even like Haruka until after I watched her arc. Haruka and Kud/Komari are fundamentally different in execution. Haruka feels like her own character, Komari and Kud feels like moe pandering gone wrong. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Triple_R]

Well, Haruka feels like the most "normal teenage girl" of the three, imo. I think that helps here. I preferred her arc to Komari's. Not sure which I preferred between Haruka and Kud's arcs.

[Masquerading Lunatic]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

What personality? Sexually harassing Riki? That's all she freaking does. I'll take the two cuties with family problems over a character like that any day because at least they are modest and innocent.

Come on and admit guys, you like her because fanservice. I won't fault you for it. You're guys and that's obviously the type of chara she's supposed to be. The fact that she's the only girl in the school who refuses to button up her blazer is plenty evidence for that.

I'm a girl and as straight as an arrow, and Kurugaya is by far my favorite girl in the show. In fact, she's my favorite character full-stop. There's just something very charming and mischievous about her, and while I can't relate to her being perfect, I sure can relate to the loneliness she obviously feels. Slinging mud at guys to get your point across really isn't a good way to make your point though, nor is trying to say that the only trait a character has is sexually harassing another (not that she doesn't).

Oh, and this is a visual novel. -All- of the girls are there to make guys swoon over them.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Come on and admit guys, you like her because fanservice. I won't fault you for it. You're guys and that's obviously the type of chara she's supposed to be. The fact that she's the only girl in the school who refuses to button up her blazer is plenty evidence for that.

My friend who's watching the show doesn't care for her either and big surprise: my friend is a girl.

I would appreciate if you could at least stop making assumption like "you are guys, ergo you like fanservice, so no go" argument that is arguably belittling and extremely generalizing (claiming you won't fault "us" in such argument is not really helping you). I find also weird that you take one of your friend as a reference.
The funny fact is that I despises fanservice in general, but it doesn't stop me finding Yuiko likable to a good degree.

Sexy or not, I dig Yuiko's personality exactly because she is a flawed "perfect" girl: the genius type that is having the drawback of her own assets despite she could have everything if she wanted to.
And suffice to say, she has some mischevious tendencies that mix well with other characters in different fashion.

If you simply focus on the fanservice aspect of hers, that's just your loss. There is no point to debate about "merits" of a character in this context.

[Archon_Wing]

And really, besides the button unbuttoned relatively speaking there's not that much fanservice of Yuiko. Some of the other characters have quite a bit more. The most is like leg shots, and JC Staff always does that.

From what I've seen thus far, Little Busters comes 2nd for sex appeal for Key Anime. But as the typical sex appeal is negative, there's just not much to say.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And Yuiko isn't awesome at everything; she obviously lacks some degree of social skills and there's a good reason why she has no friends, unless you think people like someone that's prone to violence.

Um........all of the Little Buster members ARE her friends.
So that argument doesn't work.

Just because one likes her because of fanservice, doesn't mean that's the only reason, even if that's the only reason you can think of.

What other reason is there? o_O

I find also weird that you take one of your friend as a reference.

Weird? What's weird about that?

the genius type that is having the drawback of her own assets despite she could have everything if she wanted to.

This is what's called "Mary-Sue flaw".

And really, besides the button unbuttoned relatively speaking there's not that much fanservice of Yuiko. Some of the other characters have quite a bit more. The most is like leg shots, and JC Staff always does that.

I've never really considered leg shots as fanservice. I consider a character who very noticeably has the biggest breasts of the cast to be Miss Fanservice and Kurugaya ultimately wins that.

I'm not "slinging mud" (really?) at anyone. I'm saying if guys like her I understand that but she has very little to offer to other members in the audience. There's nothing wrong with liking a character for just their sex appeal so I don't see why you find this assumption so offensive. I'll gladly admit there are many male characters I like for their sex appeal because it's the truth and I'm not ashamed of this at all.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Um........all of the Little Buster members ARE her friends.
So that argument doesn't work.

The Little Busters being her friends is the whole point of the damned show, just like the other characters are here for a reason. It serves as a contrast between their interactions with each other and everyone else.

What other reason is there? o_O

She sticks out for her friends is a pretty good trait.

This is what's called "Mary-Sue flaw".

Ah the term for "Character I don't like"

I'm not "slinging mud" (really?) at anyone. I'm saying if guys like her I understand that but she has very little to offer to other members in the audience.

Considering you're trivializing other people's opinions down to a singular point which encompasses about half the population, I'm afraid this attempt to back out of a corner won't work.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah the term for "Character I don't like"

She's perfect at everything!! So YES, SHE IS A SUE.
Name something she isn't good at!
Unlike many people who thoughtlessly throw that term around, I actually do my research before using a word, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me in with them. There are LOTS of characters I don't like. That doesn't make them Sues. I hate Yuuka from Elfen Lied not because she's a Sue but because she's a bitch. I hate Suguha from SAO, not because she's a Sue but because she's bloody annoying and petty and whiny.
And Kurugaya IS likable compared to those two hoes....because she's not unpleasant like them.

She sticks out for her friends is a pretty good trait.

.........so does......everyone else in the series?

Considering you're trivializing other people's opinions down to a singular point which encompasses about half the population, I'm afraid this attempt to back out of a corner won't work.

Lol, you're making it sound like as if I'm intimidated by you all. No, what I'm saying is if someone thinks you like a character for fanservice and you're actually offended by this, you are being far too sensitive. Especially when the creators did their darnedest to make said character "sexy" that it's painfully obvious.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

She's perfect at everything!! So YES, SHE IS A SUE.
Name something she isn't good at!
Unlike many people who thoughtlessly throw that term around, I actually do my research before using a word, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me in with them. There are LOTS of characters I don't like. That doesn't make them Sues. I hate Yuuka from Elfen Lied not because she's a Sue but because she's a bitch. I hate Suguha from SAO, not because she's a Sue but because she's bloody annoying and petty and whiny.
And Kurugaya IS likable compared to those two hoes....because she's not unpleasant like them.

Well, if you did research then you'd realize that it means a lot more than just having no flaws. The original term was made specifically designate self-insert fanfiction characters that dominate the story. If I wanted to be an ass, I could go say that no canon characters can be sues, but I know there's another usage.

So does Yuiko suddenly grab everyone's attention constantly throughout the story; does everything revolve around her? The answer is beyond these 3-4 episodes, it's clearly a no.

And I find it a bit silly that one could possibly consider someone that nearly murdered other people for a verbal threat to be flawless. I doubt that flaws under any sane court of law that killing someone because they bullied their friends is justifiable, even if LB likes to stretch reality a bit. Or are personality flaws not counted?

.........so does......everyone else in the series?

How is a quality that is shared by the rest of the cast invalid? Moving goalposts...

Lol, you're making it sound like as if I'm intimidated by you all. No, what I'm saying is if someone thinks you like a character for fanservice and you're actually offended by this, you are being far too sensitive. Especially when the creators did their darnedest to make said character "sexy" that it's painfully obvious.

I'm quite sensitive; that's why I'm offended by bad logic.

Making assumptions and generalizations about people's tastes, especially those that are disagreeing with you is a fallacy of relevance. Plus your generalization is so anecdotal that it has little value. We're not really arguing that part of her character isn't meant to be attracted male viewers for fanservice, but apparently people have other reasons. So arguing this point is quite pointless. This might have made sense in season one when she wasn't developed.

See here's the difference. I comment on characters. You comment on characters and actual people.

[Leo_Otaku]

I think we can agree to disagree that not everyone likes Kurugaya. People like different characters for different reasons. I think she has a good balance of flaws to make her not overly perfect. She is very blunt, forceful, mischievous and socially awkward. Even if she is amazing in academics she fails to make any friends, until she comes upon the Little Busters!. Her not being able to make any friends prior to LB also speaks volumes of her flaws with how she interacts with those around her.

At any rate, I'm also a straight female and I don't dislike any of the characters, if that has any actual merit. I don't care for fan service myself, I'd rather have a good story. But I do like Yuiko's character.

[Masquerading Lunatic]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I'm not "slinging mud" (really?) at anyone. I'm saying if guys like her I understand that but she has very little to offer to other members in the audience. There's nothing wrong with liking a character for just their sex appeal so I don't see why you find this assumption so offensive. I'll gladly admit there are many male characters I like for their sex appeal because it's the truth and I'm not ashamed of this at all.

You kind of are when you find it so hard to believe that guys can like a character with sex appeal for reasons other than sex appeal! Just because you can't understand why doesn't mean those reasons don't exist. Again, I'm speaking from a female viewpoint, and when you say things like this, it just comes off as incredibly patronizing, off-putting, and sexist. Yes. It's sexist. It's fine if you find characters appealing just because of fanservice. Guys do too, naturally, but if people say 'hey, that's not the only reason I like this character', then trying to tell them otherwise is sorta' ridiculous. Again, just because you don't see it doesn't mean there's nothing there. Why would I like her, then?

You're kind of just ignoring all the good points other people are bringing up, too. Kurugaya isn't good with other people (which is why she has enemies--the Little Busters are a very special group, and they're effectively a group of misfits, hence why they get along so well together), and before meeting the Little Busters, she couldn't understand the simplest of emotions. The world doesn't go her way in the end, no matter how much she tries, nor do the characters within it exist to tell us how amazing she is, so yeah...not a Mary-Sue. And using this term in something outside of fan-fiction and roleplaying is kind of difficult, considering it was made for self-insert fanfiction characters in the first place.

If you don't like a character or care much for a character, that's fine. But don't go and start belittling others over their preference for a character. Either way, I don't know if this discussion really belongs here, but I've said my piece.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Masquerading Lunatic

And using this term in something outside of fan-fiction and roleplaying is kind of difficult, considering it was made for self-insert fanfiction characters in the first place.

"Mary Sue" has clearly evolved beyond the fanfiction self-insertion definition. It is very commonly applied to fictional characters in professionally made entertainment. It's a valid point to raise about a fictional character in such entertainment in some cases.

I think that you and Archon_Wing have done a pretty good job of showing that the term "Mary Sue" doesn't fit Kurugaya all that well in any event. But how often do you see "Mary Sue" used as a fanfiction criticism compared to how often do you see it raised as a comment on a fictional character in professionally made entertainment? I don't know about you, but I see the latter far more often than the former, and I actually do write and read fanfiction from time to time.

[blakstealth]

Why is the best girl going away? I DON'T WANT HER TO GO AWAY SO QUICKLY. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

Why is the best girl going away? I DON'T WANT HER TO GO AWAY SO QUICKLY. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I am with you in this.

Using "Song for Friends" adds another feels. (Yes, I dont feel it until I rewatch... Dem Feels. )

[blakstealth]

fuck this world for real. I was so happy that Kurugaya was getting some interesting development in the beginning of this season. I honestly wasn't expecting that. And then THEY FUCKIN TAKE HER AWAY LIKE THAT. JUST TOOK HER AWAY.

SHE JUST WANTED TO FIND LOVE IN A HOPELESS PLACE

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Mary Sue" has clearly evolved beyond the fanfiction self-insertion definition. It is very commonly applied to fictional characters in professionally made entertainment. It's a valid point to raise about a fictional character in such entertainment in some cases.

I think that you and Archon_Wing have done a pretty good job of showing that the term "Mary Sue" doesn't fit Kurugaya all that well in any event. But how often do you see "Mary Sue" used as a fanfiction criticism compared to how often do you see it raised as a comment on a fictional character in professionally made entertainment? I don't know about you, but I see the latter far more often than the former, and I actually do write and read fanfiction from time to time.

Yes, nobody really goes by the old definition but the thing is that we need to take it context on why this term was invented in the first place. If we look at the most shallow ideas of just an idealized or flawless character, then you can toss it to characters like Superman and even to some degree Batman even the later isn't even flawless, (but but Batman can beat Superman if...)

Truth is, I've actually never seen any accusation of sue/studom with much reasoning that hasn't been accompanied by a dislike of the character itself. I could tell you I think that Kirino from Oreimo is a Mary Sue, but that's just because I hate the character and thus if the plot ruins her, I think it's a waste. And there's also SAO, but there's so much hyperbole towards it, then well...

Anyhow, the reason why Sue/Stu is hated is because originally they were bad fanfic self-inserts with usually exceptional qualities and traits. If it were inserted into the canon, the audience would ask "Who the fuck are you? How come you have all these abilities everyone worked so hard to get? Why are you suddenly this important" and most importantly, "What have you done to earn the audience's empathy". A sue is an intrusion into the flow of the story, in which a certain character, typically not major, is given a disproportional amount of screen time. But going by this, it's very hard to prove that a Sue/Stu is a major character because the point of the plot is to center around the major characters.

Of course, this is a fan-made term, and much like "moe" and "tsundere" I think that they are too arbitrary and overused to have any real meanings. They can be used to bring visualization to a concept, but to be used as your main argument? Nope. So one can use it however they want; just don't expect others to agree.

[OkamiNoKaze]

The talk of dreams in this episode made me think, there's some kind of "Inception" thing happening, just not sure who's yet