Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[OH&S]

^..................now that...is the question......

Honestly, I don't know how Doom Paperclip can keep defending his argument indefinitely while I get tired after only a few posts....Thanks alot demino hellsin, I'm outta here for a while.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Spoiler for off topic:

Hence my new quote of "You saw the Dragon's head, but didn't think it was a Dragon's head after seeing it was a Dragon's head but instead thought it wasn't a Dragon's head and was surprised that it was in fact a Dragon's head, and that you truly did saw a Dragon's head and now you're convinced it's only a Dragon's head because you saw just a Dragon's head."

You do not know how much I love this new catchphrase of yours, C2F.

Originally Posted by OH&S

The real question is whether or not the Dragon Strike is the Invisible Thing or the power that crushed the Invisible Thing OR like Will-chan's current life/death state, something slightly more complex...

THIS. The fact is that we do not know the identity of the Dragon Strike. As much as we may bitch and moan about it, there is still little to no information to go on at the moment and as such we can only just speculate. What resides in Touma is still as much a mystery as it was before Railgun chapter 69.

Originally Posted by OH&S

^..................now that...is the question......

Honestly, I don't know how Doom Paperclip can keep defending his argument indefinitely while I get tired after only a few posts....Thanks alot demino hellsin, I'm outta here for a while.

It's all in his name. He is but a paperclip of doom. We have seen more bizarre things.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Not sure why anyone might be disappointed by the fact that the thing (or one of the things) inside IB is a Dragon. Dragons are overused for a reason. It's because they're awesome.

Besides, Aiwass is also referred to as Dragon. It claims in an excerpt I quoted a couple of posts back that that term fits it even more than Angel. As a matter of fact, just before the epilogue of Volume 19, Aiwass declared that it could transform. I wouldn't be surprised if its second transformation were also a Dragon. I fail to see how an existence similar to Aiwass could be disappointing in any way.

As for the nature of this power, it's not like we have absolutely no clues whatsoever. Indeed, Aleister himself gave us some valuable information in Volume 22:

Originally Posted by Volume 22

“…You tried to explain that right hand, Imagine Breaker…and even The One Who Purifies God using only something at the level of Christianity. That was your mistake.”

So far I've only seen people mention the fact that Dragons can represent pagans, foreign invaders or a Fallen Angel stained with Evil, something Acqua mentioned during the British Civil War. However, that is only a Christian interpretation. If we follow that, we'll be making the same mistake that Fiamma did.

All this leads us to our first big clue. If we want to know the truth about that Dragon arm, we must discard Christian interpretations, as well as interpretations from all mythologies on the same level as Christianity. We can take this to mean that any Osiris religion will be mostly useless in this context.

The excerpt I quoted also contains our second clue. The power inside IB was referred to as "The One Who Purifies God".

Our third clue comes in the form a statement about IB. This time our source is Ollerus:

Originally Posted by Volume NT 5

“There was a time when powers similar to that showed themselves here and there throughout an era. Some took the form of weapons and made their way into the hands of great heroes, some took the form of frescos and were rumored to heal the diseases of any who touched them, and others took the form of caves and functioned as trials for those who entered them. …I do not know if the power in your hand is simply one more of those powers or if those hopes combined together into another form as they were lost and have naturally appeared here. I can make some guesses, but I have not tested any of them. However, I can say one thing for sure. Your right hand functions as a reference point for the world.”

Ollerus affirmed that IB is a reference point for the world "for sure". I think we can accept this as truth. The function of The One Who Purifies God is probably connected to this.

Ollerus also speculated that IB represents the hope of magicians that even if they completely **** up the world, they will always have the means to return everything to how it used to be. However, he is less certain about this and we cannot yet accept this as truth. My bet is that this interpretation is wrong.

Putting these three clues together, I have come up with a tentative theory. It probably won't be 100% correct, but I'm fairly confident it contains at least 1% of truth:

1) IB is the world's immune system, a defense mechanism against being distorted by the occult. It either predates humanity or came into being as a response to humanity developing magic.

2) The One Who Purifies God is the power source of IB. It represents the will of the world to reject distortions and is fueled by the power of the world (all of it, be it from the stars or Ley Lines; as an interesting aside, in Welsh and Japanese traditions, Ley Lines are also referred to as "Dragon Lines"). Its ultimate function is to strip all of the phases from the world, thus purifying the world from God and other distortions.

3) Touma cannot use IB properly, so much like Fiamma could not draw out 100% of the Holy Right's power at first, Touma cannot draw out the full power of The One Who Purifies God either. The One Who Purifies God only uses its full power in retaliation when IB is severed, but without IB to tell it how the world is supposed to be, it becomes a violent force that haphazardly crushes everything it can identify as occult instead of properly restoring balance, thus explaining why it destroyed Aureolus' memories, something IB never does. When used properly, The One Who Purifies God should be manifested through IB, not when it is damaged.

As an aside, I also have a theory about Touma's bad luck. I believe that in TAMNI, luck is caused by people unconsciously distorting the world through their hopes in order to make the things they want to happen more likely to occur. IB prevents Touma from doing that.

Originally Posted by OH&S

^..................now that...is the question......

Honestly, I don't know how Doom Paperclip can keep defending his argument indefinitely while I get tired after only a few posts....Thanks alot demino hellsin, I'm outta here for a while.

I am a Paperclip. What meaning would there be in my existence if I couldn't hold my argument together?

[LevelSeven]

1) IB is the world's immune system, a defense mechanism against being distorted by the occult. It either predates humanity or came into being as a response to humanity developing magic.

you would need it to expand on every distortion and i agree aince IB also negates esper powers...

2) The One Who Purifies God is the power source of IB. It represents the will of the world to reject distortions and is fueled by the power of the world (all of it, be it from the stars or Ley Lines; as an interesting aside, in Welsh and Japanese traditions, Ley Lines are also referred to as "Dragon Lines"). Its ultimate function is to strip all of the phases from the world, thus purifying the world from God and other distortions.

im not sure if it negates things which god himself created, since the real god is almighty and this also includes everythign of toumas abilitys....

3) Touma cannot use IB properly, so much like Fiamma could not draw out 100% of the Holy Right's power at first, Touma cannot draw out the full power of The One Who Purifies God either. The One Who Purifies God only uses its full power in retaliation when IB is severed, but without IB to tell it how the world is supposed to be, it becomes a violent force that haphazardly crushes everything it can identify as occult instead of properly restoring balance, thus explaining why it destroyed Aureolus' memories, something IB never does. When used properly, The One Who Purifies God should be manifested through IB, not when it is damaged.

i believe that they are like two sides of a coin...

IB can remake the world like it was created by god...
Dragon is the manifested distortion of the world created from gemstones, espers, magicians etc.

if one side vanishes the other side will have the upper hand...

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

you would need it to expand on every distortion and i agree aince IB also negates esper powers...

Sorry, I should have used the word "distortion" or "supernatural" instead of "occult".

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

im not sure if it negates things which god himself created, since the real god is almighty and this also includes everythign of toumas abilitys...

I meant the fake God created by magic, not the real God who may or may not exist in TAMNI.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

i believe that they are like two sides of a coin...

IB can remake the world like it was created by god...
Dragon is the manifested distortion of the world created from gemstones, espers, magicians etc.

if one side vanishes the other side will have the upper hand...

Interesting, but in that case, how did Othinus manage to crush the unknown power? If it is fueled by all the distortions in the world, that should include Othinus' as well. In order to overpower it, she would have to have been more powerful than herself. Even for a Majin, breaking the very foundation basic logic, that things are equal to themselves and different from things they are not equal to, is a bit much.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

Even for a Majin, breaking the very foundation basic logic, that things are equal to themselves and different from things they are not equal to, is a bit much.

It's really not actually. If you try to dive into the realm of infinity, you'll encounter a lot of bullstool that actually makes sense ... I think. But the most important thing to know is that any concept of equality starts to lose its meaning when you get closer to infinity.

Spoiler for Infinity and basic logic don't go well together:

Originally Posted by why?

You may never say "∞ is equal to ∞". Otherwise, you'll have atrocities like ∞-∞=0 or ∞/∞=1.

Originally Posted by why!!?

There are different kind of infinities, some bigger than others, some smaller than others. For example, there exist more rational numbers than natural numbers, yet they are all infinity nonetheless.

Originally Posted by why!!!!?

1^∞ does not equal 1, it's actually indeterminate.

Why? Don't ask me, my dear own self that I love so much. Ask the bastard who invented logarithm.

For any given number x, you have ln(x)=a. And ln(x^y) = y*ln(x) = y*a.

Incidentally, ln(1) = 0. Which means ln(1^∞) = ∞*ln(1) = 0*∞ = indeterminate

Is it safe to assume that Othinus doesn't equal herself, then? Honestly I don't know and I don't want to think about it, but at least I had to say it's not an impossibility if she's as "infinite" as she pretends to be.
And to be fair she's already a messed up being who might lose to her own self for most things she does.

[LazyHunter]

After thinking it for a bit maybe the dragon head that appeared in the last Railgun chapter makes sense. After Fiamma cuts Touma's right arm and absorbs Imagine Breaker the Invisible Thing appears but then this happens.

Spoiler for Toma stops the invisible thing:

Kamijou Touma used his own power to crush that invisible something.

A different power appeared above that great power that had gathered around Kamijou’s shoulder. That other power seemed to open up a large mouth and swallow up the first power. As if this giant mouth was chewing, the air around the shoulder shook looked like sugar water.

That great power was smashed in an instant.

Maybe the Dragon is the other power (the large mouth might be a hint) and it and the Invisible Thing are different beings. Or maybe IT it's a Dragon with capital D (of the ridiculously powerful kind and not the usual flying lizard with wings). I'm just confused as to why it would be described as something invisible and formless if it's shape it's clearly a dragon head.

Spoiler for The Invisible Thing attacks Othinus:

Suddenly, something changed.

Something invisible blew out from the crushed remnants of Kamijou Touma’s right wrist. With a roar, it shot toward Othinus without taking any real form.

[desrtsku]

^ So basically, the Dragon isn't the invisible thing but the other power, huh?

[dniv]

Anyway, just pointing out that we haven't seen Othinus reach the same level as Aleister yet. She was not able to be two places at once, and get things from other dimensions... She was however hinted at being able to change her appearance over time.

Assuming phases are in the territory of Horus, then how much farther is Aleister than her, after all she was easily able to crush IT, so maybe Aleister could as well.

Furthermore, Dragons are commonly associated with evil, and I think the reference is to Lucifer.

Anyway, I have reason to believe that the IT's powers are sealed, and that there might be some important factor related to the sound of glass breaking that Imagine Breaker emits each time a supernatural power is negated.

Imagine Breaker regenerates itself like Aiwass, and the power itself can come back at some specific time and transfer elsewhere like Aiwass. So I'm guessing that the two are connected.

The one thing I do want to point out though is that Touma himself foreshadowed last volume that it is likely that his right hand is more than a reference point for the world.

I believe that next volume will provide us with some important information on his power.

Heck,

Spoiler for NT 10 speculation:

Fighting that many people his right arm will probably be cut, and everyone will see his power... though that's not guaranteed.

I hope we will be getting more tangible details soon, though I'm sure we won't be getting any for a while after this arc since we just got so many...

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

^ So basically, the Dragon isn't the invisible thing but the other power, huh?

Since October 2010.

[desrtsku]

@dniv As far as I know Aleister didn't blow up the universe countless times. Even if he can, which is probable if we were to reconsider what Othinus said about him, he still didn't show it to us.

She was not able to be two places at once

If you read alpha again, you might think it's not out of her league. Moreover, being in "just" two places at the same time isn't as amazing as people think it is. It only starts getting broken if you get it to 2 digits or more.
Moreover, assuming he's actually "omnipresent", that doesn't necessarily mean he's nigh-omnipotent crazy level of powerful. I mean, just look at Schrödinger. The guy's practically useless other than being immortal and everywhere. The one from Hellsing, not the real one.

and get things from other dimensions

I don't even know how this works. What is dimensions in "from other dimensions"? She already manipulates time (4th), plus heaven and hell (wherever they might be).

Imagine Breaker regenerates itself like Aiwass

I assume you meant Touma's arm, because IB itself was never damaged for all we know.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, what I don't get is why suddenly it's "just a mere dragon".

Where was this disappointment YEARS ago when we all saw that Dragon's Head? And after so many volumes since then were we all not on the same page that "Dragon" have a very significant symbolic representation in this story?

*Sigh*, can you read? I'm seriously beginning to doubt this.

It doesn't matter that we saw it ''years ago'', we are talking about now, after the Invisible Thing manifested at the end of Vol. 22 and NT4, not as a Dragon Head, but as an invisible thing.

Everyone then assumed that the Dragon form was a symbolic representation of what IT truly is. I'm not denying that, and I doubt the others are denying that, what I fear is that the Dragon ceases to be a metaphor and becomes the answer.

Not ''IT takes the form of a Dragon'', but ''IT is a Dragon'', which are 2 different things.

And I would frankly be disappointed of Kamachi for doing all this build up to something more, shall we say, metaphysical, and settle down for ''dragon'', which is the basic thing ever. Compared to the awesomeness of Aiwass? Yes, yes it does not compare.

Originally Posted by dniv

1. Choronzon, which I now actually find less likely.

Eh, how so? It's not like it has become less possible

2. Lucifer, something I find more likely.

Again, Exorcises the Devil seems to dismiss it as something other than that.

I find option #2 likely because Terra hinted that the right hand was used to kill the son of God, Jesus Christ.

You will have to show me, because I found that nowhere, and it wouldn't even made sense anyway. ''The right hand was used to kill Jesus Christ'', the right hand of whom? The soldiers who put up the cross? Or the ones who pierced his hands with the nails? The one with the lance thrust it with his right hand? Which is it?

And let's not even get into that the devil wasn't even there...

Also, Lucifer originally sat to the right of God, and was comparable to God in power.

Finally an argument I can get behind.

The kanji means invisible demon after all...

Which would reinforce the Choronzon theory instead.

Originally Posted by Cthaeh

I initially thought Lucifer was most likely. I thought the following line from Fiamma in v16ep could be interpreted as hinting that Lucifer was bound by/within his right hand.

Another compelling argument, I have nothing to counter it.

The reason I said "initially thought" is that I have since decided that Lucifer is too Christian to be at the center mystery of the novel

YES.


If it were really Lucifer, it would make no sense for LPSAD Fiamma to sense himself weaker than IT. Lucifer isn't superior to God, especially after being cast out of the right seat.

That doesn't change the fact that it seems to fit; so one way to still include Lucifer would be for it to be some sort of amalgam of multiple mythologies (including Lucifer), or perhaps something that acts as representation (similar to idol theory) of the separate but similar entities scattered through the different mythologies.

Possible.

Anyway, another argument against Lucifer being IT would be the Toaru Majutsu no Index II Archives 1 Audio Drama, where Magicians wanted to summon Lucifer, and how Touma prevents the summoning ritual with the Imagine Breaker. As Jesus said, ''If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?''. It would make no sense for Lucifer to be able to prevent his own summoning if he were in Touma's Right Hand (or at least he would have reacted to some degree).

[Birdway]

Everyone then assumed that the Dragon form was a
symbolic representation of what IT truly is. I'm not
denying that, and I doubt the others are denying that,
what I fear is that the Dragon ceases to be a metaphor
and becomes the answer.

I didn't. I keep on posting IT isn't Dragón.

[LG-MAX]

Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
^ So basically, the Dragon isn't the invisible thing but the other power, huh?

Originally Posted by Birdway

Since October 2010.

Thank you, I just spit my dinner when I read it.

Anyway, I agree that both the IT and DS are different powers, for me the DS is the "other power" mencionad vol 22, what missing explain is because the DS was released in the fight against demon Mikoto and not IT, and the opposite against Othinus.

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by allfictions

Anyway, another argument against Lucifer being IT would be the Toaru Majutsu no Index II Archives 1 Audio Drama, where Magicians wanted to summon Lucifer, and how Touma prevents the summoning ritual with the Imagine Breaker. As Jesus said, ''If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?''. It would make no sense for Lucifer to be able to prevent his own summoning if he were in Touma's Right Hand (or at least he would have reacted to some degree).

Because IB acts as a seal and is on the way before that?

[dniv]

Originally Posted by allfictions

*Sigh*, can you read? I'm seriously beginning to doubt this.

It doesn't matter that we saw it ''years ago'', we are talking about now, after the Invisible Thing manifested at the end of Vol. 22 and NT4, not as a Dragon Head, but as an invisible thing.

Everyone then assumed that the Dragon form was a symbolic representation of what IT truly is. I'm not denying that, and I doubt the others are denying that, what I fear is that the Dragon ceases to be a metaphor and becomes the answer.

Not ''IT takes the form of a Dragon'', but ''IT is a Dragon'', which are 2 different things.

And I would frankly be disappointed of Kamachi for doing all this build up to something more, shall we say, metaphysical, and settle down for ''dragon'', which is the basic thing ever. Compared to the awesomeness of Aiwass? Yes, yes it does not compare.

Eh, how so? It's not like it has become less possible


Again, Exorcises the Devil seems to dismiss it as something other than that.

You will have to show me, because I found that nowhere, and it wouldn't even made sense anyway. ''The right hand was used to kill Jesus Christ'', the right hand of whom? The soldiers who put up the cross? Or the ones who pierced his hands with the nails? The one with the lance thrust it with his right hand? Which is it?

And let's not even get into that the devil wasn't even there...

Furthermore, Touma starts to have that evil laugh, and look somewhat evil when that devil appears.


Finally an argument I can get behind.

Which would reinforce the Choronzon theory instead.

Another compelling argument, I have nothing to counter it.



YES.


If it were really Lucifer, it would make no sense for LPSAD Fiamma to sense himself weaker than IT. Lucifer isn't superior to God, especially after being cast out of the right seat.

Possible.

Anyway, another argument against Lucifer being IT would be the Toaru Majutsu no Index II Archives 1 Audio Drama, where Magicians wanted to summon Lucifer, and how Touma prevents the summoning ritual with the Imagine Breaker. As Jesus said, ''If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?''. It would make no sense for Lucifer to be able to prevent his own summoning if he were in Touma's Right Hand (or at least he would have reacted to some degree).

That's interesting. I was also originally saying that Lucifer was sealed in his right hand, and that supernatural powers, "the devil" are being exorcised by his right hand, but perhaps that's wrong.

Maybe it is possible that what is in his right hand is God, the creator. I've always thought that this was possible, but that his power is sealed while he is in his hand. It would explain why he could negate the power of God.

The reason I have started to back of the idea of Choronzon is that it might take the form of a dragon more than once, and Choronzon manifests randomly. If it true that they are two separate powers, then the theory that it is Choronzon is more likely.

I also think that whatever is in his right hand probably goes beyond Dragon, but dragon perhaps is one way of understanding it...

Also, if you do check the wikia or perhaps volume 14 Terra states that he thinks Imagine Breaker might be responsible for the death of Jesus Christ, because he was wondering about the contradiction that the son of God was killed with human hands, though this could also be implying Imagine Breaker stores something divine.

It would also make sense for IB to return things to normal, if God was the one behind it that created everything in the first place... but this theory doesn't have that much basis, except for the fact that Touma can control the IT which would mean he might be above God... yada yada...

Furthermore, given that 2% of plans of Aleister are not affected by Imagine Breaker, have we seen those plans yet?... or was that just Battle Royale?...

[Ravagerblade]

@ Dniv, A Longinus?

[demino_hellsin]

So everyone keeps insisting that the dragon is a dragon or the dragon is not a dragon. Does that mean you've read the chapter along with the context of its appearance?

[cleed]

So which of these two powers in Touma's arm would be the Imagin Breaker? Or is it the combination of the two? Or is IB a third power?

[LG-MAX]

The Dragon is one thing and the IT is other, I understand that.