Beyond Moe: has anime really changed at all?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

The list I saw was what sold in 2010.

Top sellers for 2010, from Rank Ohkoku:

1.K-ON!!
2.A Certain Scientific Railgun
3.Bakemonogatari
4.Working!!
5.Angel Beats!
6.Hidamari Sketch
7.Seikon no Qwaser
8.Shin Koihime Musou
9.Ikki Tousen Xtreme Xecutor
10.GA Art Design Class

Almost every single one is primarily ecchi or moe girls aimed at men in their 20s. Bakemonogatari is sort of an exception, but even it has significant elements of the above.

You have to admit, that's a pretty brutal top 10.

Even if we eliminate Ore no Imouto from that count because it was released so close to the end of 2010, I could have sworn that that Durarara, Hakuoki, High School of the Dead, and Katanagatari outsold some of those.

Also, remember that 2010 is a year a number of more action-ish anime got movie adaptations, which would not be captured there.

[Brimstone]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

so this shows that of the top selling titles in 2010 have more than just pure moe stuff, granted it was still well represented, but there is a good mix between genres. While 1998 also includes a moe title in CCS.

Looking through the list of titles I've posted that were over 10k average sales for 2009 and 2010, unless you're KyoAni you can't win it big with just moe alone. Sure you can get lucky with a few cute girls, but there must always be something else going for it whether it's Action (Railgun/Durarara/Index) or Drama (Angel Beats/OreImo/Bakemonogatari).

[Ithekro]

And even KyoAni isn't proof you can get a 10k title. (Nichijou...even though it was a good comedy from my point of view. It wasn't moe pandering I guess...or the jokes were just not enough for the regular purchasing crowd).

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

so this shows that of the top selling titles in 2010 have more than just pure moe stuff, granted it was still well represented, but there is a good mix between genres. While 1998 also includes a moe title in CCS.

BTW, asaqe, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Are you saying that you were one of the misguided one before and have now see the light or you ranting about the JUMP fanboys. (no offense, I like JUMP myself, I', talking about the ones with "@#$ is the best, it's the most mature, everything else is crap" and the ones that can't differentiate shonen from seinen)

What happened back in high school when I caught onto the anime scene I was enjoying the fanservice/ecchi genre way more than what the average high school was checking out at the time. Was fun for a while until you realize how lonely it was being unable to talk about your hobby in front of normal anime fans.

Nowadays, it is no longer possible to discuss new anime without fear of becoming being classified as a complete pervert. I really am holding my breath on what will the anime scene be like where I live next year...

Which kind of relates to the issue, anime has changed from something that had it's lines between "kids stuff" and "adults only" completely eliminated in a bad way.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by asaqe

What happened back in high school when I caught onto the anime scene I was enjoying the fanservice/ecchi genre way more than what the average high school was checking out at the time. Was fun for a while until you realize how lonely it was being unable to talk about your hobby in front of normal anime fans.

Nowadays, it is no longer possible to discuss new anime without fear of becoming being classified as a complete pervert. I really am holding my breath on what will the anime scene be like where I live next year...

Which kind of relates to the issue, anime has changed from something that had it's lines between "kids stuff" and "adults only" completely eliminated in a bad way.

which area are you coming from though? I personally don't have issue with most anime fan. Where in Eastern MA, granted sometime I'll need to adapt to other's preference, but that wasn't too big of problem.

Originally Posted by Brimstone

Looking through the list of titles I've posted that were over 10k average sales for 2009 and 2010, unless you're KyoAni you can't win it big with just moe alone. Sure you can get lucky with a few cute girls, but there must always be something else going for it whether it's Action (Railgun/Durarara/Index) or Drama (Angel Beats/OreImo/Bakemonogatari).

Which is what most of us has been preaching all this time. Sure otaku like moe, but that's not the only thing they like since they are most real anime fan that likes more than one genre. They are not the main cause as some may believe.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

The list I saw was what sold in 2010.

Top sellers for 2010, from Rank Ohkoku:

1.K-ON!!
2.A Certain Scientific Railgun
3.Bakemonogatari
4.Working!!
5.Angel Beats!
6.Hidamari Sketch
7.Seikon no Qwaser
8.Shin Koihime Musou
9.Ikki Tousen Xtreme Xecutor
10.GA Art Design Class

Almost every single one is primarily ecchi or moe girls aimed at men in their 20s. Bakemonogatari is sort of an exception, but even it has significant elements of the above.

You have to admit, that's a pretty brutal top 10.

Even if we go by you list (which I find itself a bit unreliable when two other member provided a different list with sales figures on them.) Your claim is still debatable.

Take away Bakamonogatari and Working (comedy not moe) and boarder line TV original in Angel Beat(more drama than moe) that's 7 left.

Railgun and Seikon no Qwaser (believe it or not) are both serialize in shonen magazine which mean they are target anywhere from 13 and up and not 20+ as you said, so now that's 5

We have 1 which is obvious of eroge orgin in Shin Koihime Musou.

The other 4 are of seinen manga origin which means that while they are targeted at 20+, they are at same time has same availability as series like Bartender, Jin, Iryu, Claymore, etc. Unfortunately seinen series are more prune to live adaption than anime adaption since vast majarity of them are slice of live not real world setting type of stuff. Not to mention other than Ikkitousen, the other three are 4-komi (strip manga) like Sazae-san that are not really aiming toward otaku but the general 20+ normal people and serves similar purpose as Snoopy comic strip or Spidermen comic strip and have been around for years. The anime adaption just introduce those 4-komi manga to younger audience as well as hardcore otaku, which is actually the opposite of effect.

It's like how Shonen JUMP's target audience was 13-19 but the biggest readers for the tankoban turns out to be 20+ crowd and you say teh because of that Naruto and One Piece are manga aimed at 20+ in mind.

So when it really comes down to it, Koihime and Ikkitousen are the only 2 series that can be claimed to have been originally targeted at otaku crowd since the very beginning.

You actually have better argument using other lists with Strike Witches, Oreimo, and Queen's Blade.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Take away Bakamonogatari and Working (comedy not moe) and boarder line TV original in Angel Beat(more drama than moe) that's 7 left.

Railgun and Seikon no Qwaser (believe it or not) are both serialize in shonen magazine which mean they are target anywhere from 13 and up and not 20+ as you said, so now that's 5

So when it really comes down to it, Koihime and Ikkitousen are the only 2 series that can be claimed to have been originally targeted at otaku crowd since the very beginning.

We're at a point in this debate where that communication breakdown happens. What you're doing is basically cherrypicking away at examples because they don't fall specifically into lolicon/puni/harem type genres. Fact of the matter is, Bakemonogatari, Working, Angel Beats!, Railgun, Seikon no Qwaser are all still targeted at otaku. You know how I know this? Because they were top sellers! Almost nobody except the otaku buys Blu-rays, because the general populace is still stuck in VHS/DVD days.

To say only "moe" shows aim to attract otaku yen from the beginning is so off the mark, it makes me want to bail out of this discussion. Like I said in the other thread, it's not moe girls that are at fault here, it's the checklist mentality associated with these otaku shows. At the very least, Bakemonogatari, Railgun, Qwaser, and especially Angel Beats! have been made with this principle in mind.

I should say here that I actually like Bakemonogatari because it turned out better than the checklist it started out with, but even this can't go by the natural flow of things, it being that, in general, NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN OTAKU BUY LATE NIGHT TV ANIME.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by asaqe

Nowadays, it is no longer possible to discuss new anime without fear of becoming being classified as a complete pervert. I really am holding my breath on what will the anime scene be like where I live next year...

It's a little different on my side, and maybe some others who may recognize themselves in that situation. My casual friends, who used to talk passionately about anime with me, are so stuck in one decade or locked out of the loop, that it is almost impossible to talk about anime without having them looking at me with wide round eyes. They don't know much about anime other than what they sees on mainstream TV. That means the reruns of Saint Seiya or City Hunter, and the Big Three of today and, if I am lucky, FMA. I am the one who refused to leave the hobby behind me as I grew up. Others did, they founded a family, they had children, while my hope is to be able to give my future children a taste in anime as wide as possible. So when I try to talk about Madoka Magica, Bakemonogatari, Clannad, Gungrave, the Full Metal Panic franchise, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, or even Monster, I get the "You lost me" face on them casual friends.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Mamoru Oshii: Today's Anime Is Driven by Otaku, Merchandise

Even if I might agree with some of his criticisms of the industry, they would be more convincing if his current project weren't a high-school romance involving a vampire!

Oshii loves to make controversial statements. I remember a 1989 interview with him in which he stated that anime as a medium had reached maturity by then. Any new developments would just be a new interpretation of what had come before. He seems to have stuck by his words.

As a director he often uses commercially viable themes to encase his message or artwork. His criticism that the package is the only thing that remains in modern otaku centric anime is not a new sound. Writers like Dai Satō have expressed a similar views: the industry increasingly produces material that creates a mood rather than communicates a message. They blame it on the outflow of creative minds to other better paying industries. Whether they make a fair demand from producers of commercial material is another question.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

But, the problem here is how many of them are actually OVA and not TV. As SeijiSensei, there is a huge de-emphasis on OVA series (1-6 episodes) for past decade, at same time as I mention in a prior post that the emphasis on 1-cour series (11-13 episode) increases dramatically (ratio-wise) mostly duw to economic reason and competitiveness and the need to "test the water"

Late night anime has become the direct successor to the 80s and 90s OVA market. That explains the shift seen in the figures. There is not that much difference between the 1-6 ep OVA's which could be up to 60 min in length to the 1 cour format of 12-14 20 min episodes. The current OVA market is a different entity from before focusing mainly on specials of existing/popular properties.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

The crowds (20-40 otaku) that buys bishojo PVC models are the same as the crowd that are buying Gundam plamo and Cowboy Bepop-related PVC model. So to say they are at fault was hypocritical.

The problem here is actually the younger, new generation fans who are NOT considered as hardcore. They are the ones not buying the the merchandise without moe/ecchi/fan service.

The rating in Gundam Age is the most telling. The only demographic it manages to attract is the 20-40 otaku crowd. Compare to the commercial success junk (by hardcore standard) Destiny, the crowd loss in 10-19 males and female crowds were the difference.

It's very difficult to use Gundam Age as evidence for this point. The ratings Westlo quoted are incomplete. If you look at other data in the blog he quotes, GA's rating have been all over the place. The general trend of the first 4 eps. seems to be an increasing viewer base among kids and among 35+ men and women. While the main otaku age category 20-34 is dropping off after checking it out. Not surprising as it really is a kids show and airs at 17:30. My guess is that parents who grew up on Gundam watch it out of nostalgia with their young children.

While otaku are the main buyers of Gundam animated works, in addition Gundam is a vast mainstream media and toy property. It's annual turnover is 45 bln yen. The anime otaku market contains at most 150,000 individuals in Japan. If they were the main demographic, every otaku would have to spend well over $4000 a year on Gundam alone to get near that figure.

Originally Posted by cyth

I should say here that I actually like Bakemonogatari because it turned out better than the checklist it started out with, but even this can't go by the natural flow of things, it being that, in general, NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN OTAKU BUY LATE NIGHT TV ANIME.

Indeed.

I guess we also see a similar communication problem when post 1998 late night anime get's compared to older TV shows. While both are shown on TV, the latter aired during the day time or prime time with a different audience in mind. For comparison it's better to compare current prime time anime with older TV material while late night anime is much closer to 80s and 90s OVA material.

As an example, I recently watched New Dominion TP, an old JC Staff OVA title from the early nineties. It surprised me how close it is to modern material, it would score well on that checklist. It is kind of a proto-Shana with technology instead of magic.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

which area are you coming from though? I personally don't have issue with most anime fan. Where in Eastern MA, granted sometime I'll need to adapt to other's preference, but that wasn't too big of problem.

Canada, namely Vancouver. Given it's coastal town and Vancouver being mini Hollywood can result in a quicker "culture shifts" than other countries/cities. I just noticed lately our city has been getting a net loss of anime/manga fans. Meaning more older veterans are leaving the genre and certain sources are closing down. Making anime a smaller industry than it was before. It isn't dead but definitely on the decline. This year made me feel anime has been hit pretty hard by certain ordinances in Japan restricting creativity and the potential appeal of new anime titles.

It is harder to sell a fanservice over here than a non-fanservice title after all and I could name a variety of causes and anwsers to the problem

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's a little different on my side, and maybe some others who may recognize themselves in that situation. My casual friends, who used to talk passionately about anime with me, are so stuck in one decade or locked out of the loop, that it is almost impossible to talk about anime without having them looking at me with wide round eyes. They don't know much about anime other than what they sees on mainstream TV. That means the reruns of Saint Seiya or City Hunter, and the Big Three of today and, if I am lucky, FMA. I am the one who refused to leave the hobby behind me as I grew up. Others did, they founded a family, they had children, while my hope is to be able to give my future children a taste in anime as wide as possible. So when I try to talk about Madoka Magica, Bakemonogatari, Clannad, Gungrave, the Full Metal Panic franchise, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, or even Monster, I get the "You lost me" face on them casual friends.

My problem is trying to even talk about certain titles over here, the internet community I have been in fosters the idea that liking mainstream anime is abhorrent. They would rather watch some fanservice/harem anime which will never be allowed discussion elsewhere and the mere mention will result in being shunned by the average anime fan who is creeped out by your interest in such anime and manga which have less discussion value than normal anime.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

The list I saw was what sold in 2010.

Top sellers for 2010, from Rank Ohkoku:

1.K-ON!!
2.A Certain Scientific Railgun
3.Bakemonogatari
4.Working!!
5.Angel Beats!
6.Hidamari Sketch
7.Seikon no Qwaser
8.Shin Koihime Musou
9.Ikki Tousen Xtreme Xecutor
10.GA Art Design Class

Almost every single one is primarily ecchi or moe girls aimed at men in their 20s. Bakemonogatari is sort of an exception, but even it has significant elements of the above.

You have to admit, that's a pretty brutal top 10.

Does anyone not find it interesting that Angel Beats actually had a bigger male cast than female cast, yet it sold very well? I actually don't really consider it to be a moe series at all-it's straight-up comedy/drama and all of the main characters are cute/appealing-not just the girls. Just because the characters are drawn to look appealing doesn't make it a moe series either. When's the last time you saw an anime with really ugly main characters anyway? Creators seldom do that because nobody wants to watch ugly characters do anything-the same reason actors on TV shows/movies are always handsome or beautiful.

Some ignorant person on another forum dared to call Angel Beats "generic boring moe shit" and I went postal on his ass.

The crowds (20-40 otaku) that buys bishojo PVC models are the same as the crowd that are buying Gundam plamo and Cowboy Bepop-related PVC model. So to say they are at fault was hypocritical.

Actually that's not true in my case. Even though I'm female, I love to buy the bishoujo figures too-they look cute, so nice and colorful with great outfits and I like to decorate my room with them.
*Kirino impression* :Is that......weird?
I mean, I buy the boy ones too! There just aren't as many of them...of course.... Does Japan really think girls don't like figures of sexy boys or something!? WE DO!!

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by asaqe

Canada, namely Vancouver. Given it's coastal town and Vancouver being mini Hollywood can result in a quicker "culture shifts" than other countries/cities. I just noticed lately our city has been getting a net loss of anime/manga fans. Meaning more older veterans are leaving the genre and certain sources are closing down. Making anime a smaller industry than it was before. It isn't dead but definitely on the decline. This year made me feel anime has been hit pretty hard by certain ordinances in Japan restricting creativity and the potential appeal of new anime titles.

It is harder to sell a fanservice over here than a non-fanservice title after all and I could name a variety of causes and anwsers to the problem

Curious as to what sources you're thinking of. I do most of my shopping online so I'm not that aware of the local retail scene.

My problem is trying to even talk about certain titles over here, the internet community I have been in fosters the idea that liking mainstream anime is abhorrent. They would rather watch some fanservice/harem anime which will never be allowed discussion elsewhere and the mere mention will result in being shunned by the average anime fan who is creeped out by your interest in such anime and manga which have less discussion value than normal anime.

To be honest, I remember my university anime club being kind of factionalized in terms of what series people would discuss.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

You actually have better argument using other lists with Strike Witches, Oreimo, and Queen's Blade.

True, Brimstone's list shows the shift in popularity as much as mine. Top 7 from his list:

K-ON!!
Angel Beats!
Ore no Imouto
Durarara!!
Working!!
To Aru Majutsu no Index II
Strike Witches 2

Every one of the top 7 is seinen. There are varying degrees of moe elements featured, but the representation is very strong.

Other than pure moe shows, there are also moe elements in shows that don't need them. I like Bakemonogatari and Katanagatari a lot, but (for the biggest examples) Nadeko and Konayuki Itezora add nothing, and ruin the shows for me the entire time they are on screen. The shows could have been improved (for me) by avoiding moe stereotypes.

All the lists show a shift in popularity, but does NOT necessarily show a deeper change in how anime is made. Cyth brought up a "checklist mentality" for making a lot of these shows. However, maybe there was the same mentality in the past, just with a different checklist? Since I wasn't watching anime in the 90s, and I mainly have seen the best shows of the 90s, I don't know if the mindset changed.

I will argue though that the mindset was not the same in the early to mid 2000s. Anime appeared to be gaining popularity outside Japan, economics hadn't crashed yet, and anime studios thought they could greatly enlarge the audience. All kinds of shows got made, some of them with much larger budgets than you would expect, without a checklist for a specific audience in mind.

As a whole, the experiment failed. The shows were not successful enough to support themselves. And that is why we have checklist mode.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

True, Brimstone's list shows the shift in popularity as much as mine. Top 7 from his list:

K-ON!!
Angel Beats!
Ore no Imouto
Durarara!!
Working!!
To Aru Majutsu no Index II
Strike Witches 2

Every one of the top 7 is seinen. There are varying degrees of moe elements featured, but the representation is very strong.

Moe elements in Durarara!? I'm sorry. Have to disagree. Unless of course, it's moe directed at a female audience because there is that.

[Kyuu]

Right now... I don't remember the last good sci-fi series. Who wants to remind me? And I'm serious too.

[RandySyler]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Moe elements in Durarara!? I'm sorry. Have to disagree. Unless of course, it's moe directed at a female audience because there is that.

Well there is some Meganekko involved (Sonohara) which counts as moe, and you could stretch Celty to be moe (in some weird, headless way). So there is at least some elements of moe in DRRR! but I do agree that it is not many compared to GA Art Design Class, K-On!, Angel Beats!, etc.

Right now... I don't remember the last good sci-fi series. Who wants to remind me? And I'm serious too.

Well, there's always Steins;Gate.

[Chiibi]

Man.........@_@ I'm so confused here. Where do we draw the line? Going by what everyone is saying in this thread, couldn't any anime with a cute girl/boy in it be considered to have a "moe element?"
In that case, 99% of anime (compared to the 1% that doesn't have any cute characters in it) would have moe elements.

Moe elements alone, shouldn't really mean anything negative for the show. There are probably three anime series I can name off the top of my head that are completely devoid of any moe elements (to my knowledge): Monster, Speed Grapher, and Witch Hunter Robin (though I am certain people find Robin "moe" just look at that hair!)

But I was just under the impression that moe series are defined as "cute characters just doing cute things" and sells not because of a ground-breaking plot or amazing writing but "because it's cute!!"
That certainly doesn't describe Durarara, Angel Beats, or even Madoka, for me. Those series are not pure fluff....they are opposite of fluff material, in fact.

Or can a moe series be completely serious without being fluffy? If it's serious, is it still a moe series?! WHAT ARE THE RULES OF MOE SERIES!? IS IT EVEN A GENRE OR JUST A STYLE!?

*bangs head against wall*

A show like Ichigo Marshmallow is definitely my definition as a pure moe series but I simply cannot think of something as dramatic and heavy as Angel Beats or mind-f**king Madoka cut from that same cloth; cute girls or no.

[Marcus H.]

Anime did not really change.
It's the viewers and fans who have changed. Or maybe they have become more vocal thanks to the Internet.

Countless lines have been drawn when it comes to "superior tastes", and this causes the already small fanbase of anime series to fragment into numerous "factions". There's the anti-moeshit side, the mecha worshippers side, the Gundam conservationists, the hispters... there's just so many of them that you have to wonder how someone who has his own unique perspective would fit in to this jumbled mess.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Curious as to what sources you're thinking of. I do most of my shopping online so I'm not that aware of the local retail scene.

To be honest, I remember my university anime club being kind of factionalized in terms of what series people would discuss.

Over this year (no thanks to recession period some countries are facing), many anime merchandise stores have been closing over here in Vancouver and Richmond. While online shopping keeps anime alive, it doesn't beat good old fashioned visiting malls to check out what is the latest in Japan. The fact the Iwase bookstore franchise is the only one with truly up to date info, this obviously hurts the anime interest over here since not everyone could buy manga/magazines from Japan. For me, it was always about the eroge and pinups and this served as a heavy loss to me.

Next year will be in my opinion a sink or swim for Japanese media over here. Will the convention (The true anime convention, not the series of miniconventions held to keep people's interests alive) bring new blood in or will next year be another year where we see more fans leave the fandom than joining it?

[relentlessflame]

While I appreciate that this thread got off to a bit of a more netural start (well, if I may say so, I guess ), I'm honestly too sure that the resulting discussion has been that much more productive overall.

A lot of the discussion in this thread has centered around home media sales of TV shows, trying to prove or deny that "moe shows" or shows with "moe elements" have increased. As I recommended in my original point, throw that entire term out; it's completely useless, loaded, and is only resulting in endless back and forth about "what is moe" and "what isn't moe". What has actually changed?

I guess I have a few ideas (some are clear changes, and some are just some of the things that seem most popular now).

Warning: many words follow. tl;dr

1. The artstyle has been revolutionized by digital technology. Whereas before a lot of the popular character designers had their roots in hand-drawn manga, nowadays most of the popular character designers are CG illustrators (whose illustrations have a smooth, polished, Photoshop-enhanced look).
   
   
   1. The particular emphasis of the new artstyle is in the "bishoujo". While beautiful women have always played a large role in anime, the bishoujo look seems driven primarily by eroge/galge. Many of the leading illustrators today started or continue to do eroge/galge work, even while they get selected to illustrations for light novels or origianl character designs for manga/games/other works. So this popular and characteristic artstyle is not restricted only to shows based on eroge/galge, but has branched into pretty much all genres and styles of shows, particularly targeted at the young adult male crowd.
   
   
2. The creation/popularizing of the late-night timeslot which has largely supplanted OVAs. This accompanied the lower cost of digital production. This result is a lot more TV shows in general, and a lot more that are "hyper-targeted" only at a specific demographic, since their primary goal is not driven by TV ratings (thus to garner as wide/broad a viewership as possible).
   
   
   1. Whereas shows in primetime and weekend morning timeslots continue to be based primarily on manga (most widely accepted in Japan), shows in late-night timeslots are based on a wide variety of other media, including light novels, video games, galge/eroge, and more.
   
   
3. A few styles of stories (some rather new, some evolved from old motifs) were introduced and popularized in the late-night time slots. Among them:
   
   
   1. romantic comedies/dramas based on bishoujo games/galge/eroge
      
      
   2. shounen/seinen comedies and dramas based on light novels, typically driven (and marketed) primarily by a key/highlighting bishoujo heroine
      
      
   3. slice-of-life shows based on 4-koma manga (typically revolving around a small group of girls)
      
      
   4. (others that should be included in this list...???)
   
   
4. In these sorts of shows, a few specific archetypes of heroines rose to the forefront. (These archetypes may not be new, but they seem to me to be the most predominant in the last decade.):
   
   
   1. the "tsundere" heroine (in love with the protagonist but unable to be honest, generally acts and speaks negatively to mask their true feelings)
      
      
   2. the "klutzy, child-like" heroine (acts with various cute child-like mannerisms, may engender protective feelings in the audience)
      
      
   3. the "cooldere" heroine (generally cold and aloof, speaking few words and appearing emotionally disconnected from the world around them)
      
      
   4. (others that I haven't included...???)

I know I'm missing points in the above, but maybe it's a starting point.



Things I haven't included in the above (not necessarily because they shouldn't be there, but because I don't really know what to say)...

First, "sexual" fanservice (what we commonly call just "fanservice", though it really has many meanings). I honestly don't know if the amount of fanservice has really increased in the shows targeted at the same demographic. Certainly there are more TV shows (which I covered), and there are more shows hyper-targeted at the young adult demographic (covered). So if you're going just based on quantity, you might say "there's more fanservice". But there are also more shows. 80s/90s anime also had fanservice too, and I don't think it's changed that much on the surface. So... I personally don't have enough information to make an assertion on this point.

Second, the bit about the shift in appearance towards younger-looking heroines. There are certainly more shows and more heroines. The bishoujo artstyle may appear young in some incarnations. And there are certainly shows that deliberately feature younger-looking characters... but I think those always existed. I guess maybe the real point here was about "shows featuring young girls being marketed primarily to young-adult/middle-aged men" and the whole "creep" factor. But I have no idea how to quantify this or to even say for sure that it is or isn't a trend compared to the past beyond just the points above: that there are more shows, and more shows hyper-targeted due to the timeslot and cheaper production costs. I also don't know if they were conscious of that demographic in the past. So for this one, I just don't know how to quantify a trend if it exists.

Third, perhaps to go with points 3 & 4, you could have sorts of shows/characters that were less popular/prominent than in the past. Like some might say that sci-fi shows are less common. Some might say that mecha shows are less common. The reason I didn't go there is because I don't know the actual percentage of genre/total output vs. just the "popular" shows from the past that people remember and the genres they were in. This is like you might say "there are less magical girl anime now", but actually there are a bunch of at least quasi-magical girl shows but they're in kids blocks and not widely known/advertised around here. So I have no idea for sure what there is less of. Perhaps some others can make more educated comments/guesses.

Fourth, the size and demographics of the fanbase. This is something that probably should be added and considered, just I'm getting tired and haven't thought it through.

Fifth, the rise of the Internet and the impact of piracy. This too is probably something to consider, but needs more thought from me (per above ).

Edit: Sixth, the variety and types of merchandise available. Just thought of this now, and I'm sure there are more...



So... that's a whole bunch of "stuff" I guess. Maybe it's useful, maybe it's not useful, but I hope it provokes a thought about the specifics of what at least appears to have changed on practical terms and not just back to the same old "I don't like moe; there's more moe; moe's ruining anime" thing we had from the last thread. Whatever happened over the last decade (or whatever) must be the combination of a lot of different trends coming together. Maybe I'm totally off the mark in my ideas above (they're off the top of my head, and not deeply researched), but it could be a starting point.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by cyth

We're at a point in this debate where that communication breakdown happens. What you're doing is basically cherrypicking away at examples because they don't fall specifically into lolicon/puni/harem type genres. Fact of the matter is, Bakemonogatari, Working, Angel Beats!, Railgun, Seikon no Qwaser are all still targeted at otaku. You know how I know this? Because they were top sellers! Almost nobody except the otaku buys Blu-rays, because the general populace is still stuck in VHS/DVD days.

To say only "moe" shows aim to attract otaku yen from the beginning is so off the mark, it makes me want to bail out of this discussion. Like I said in the other thread, it's not moe girls that are at fault here, it's the checklist mentality associated with these otaku shows. At the very least, Bakemonogatari, Railgun, Qwaser, and especially Angel Beats! have been made with this principle in mind.

I should say here that I actually like Bakemonogatari because it turned out better than the checklist it started out with, but even this can't go by the natural flow of things, it being that, in general, NOBODY ELSE OTHER THAN OTAKU BUY LATE NIGHT TV ANIME.

I actually agree with that, what I have problem was that Ermes Marana was using these titles in a way that suggesting that all these titles are aimed "DIRECTLY" to Otaku when the orgin of majority of those title suggests otherwise. Not to mention he only seem to pick titles that fits his argument fo it's only natural I cherry-picking it apart to prove my point.

With that being said, we can then say that those series that were specifically picked for anime adaption because they would appeal to the that Otaku market for the reason as you stated, becuase they are the one buying stuff.

But the point Ermes Marana and others was missing was that the otaku crowd are also the one that bought the merchandise for the main stream shows as well. The reason there are fewer shows like Trigun or other were because the mainstream are not buying related products of those shows not because they don't appear to the otaku.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

First, "sexual" fanservice (what we commonly call just "fanservice", though it really has many meanings). I honestly don't know if the amount of fanservice has really increased in the shows targeted at the same demographic. Certainly there are more TV shows (which I covered), and there are more shows hyper-targeted at the young adult demographic (covered). So if you're going just based on quantity, you might say "there's more fanservice". But there are also more shows. 80s/90s anime also had fanservice too, and I don't think it's changed that much on the surface. So... I personally don't have enough information to make an assertion on this point.

Second, the bit about the shift in appearance towards younger-looking heroines. There are certainly more shows and more heroines. The bishoujo artstyle may appear young in some incarnations. And there are certainly shows that deliberately feature younger-looking characters... but I think those always existed. I guess maybe the real point here was about "shows featuring young girls being marketed primarily to young-adult/middle-aged men" and the whole "creep" factor. But I have no idea how to quantify this or to even say for sure that it is or isn't a trend compared to the past beyond just the points above: that there are more shows, and more shows hyper-targeted due to the timeslot and cheaper production costs. I also don't know if they were conscious of that demographic in the past. So for this one, I just don't know how to quantify a trend if it exists.

80s/90s anime has ton of fan service character. The fact that Fujiko and Reiko both are still considered as one the the top anime/manga sex symbol Minami is still consider by many as the top miwaifu material showed that those caracter type exist back then. Not only that has had tons of shonen action that was full of echii is not borderline ero. Kotaro Makaritoru, Hokuto no Ken, Cat's eye, City Hunter, Bastard!!, Tenchi wo Kurau, Hana no Keiji, all have ton of fan service scene or explicit nude scene with breast/sex that has all but disappeared in shonen and is more common on seinen magazine nowadays.

I actually cover the second part a bit in previous posts. The 80s' anime also got is own barely adult/creepy issue. unless the current "younger than you look" the 80s anime/manga are "older than you look" type. Take Saint seiya for example, Saori (Athena) is the fan service character in the series yet despite her sexiness she is officially 13 years old. Also that's not forget that Kenshin married Tomoe at age 15 (usual marry age at time but still...).