Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[arkhangelsk]

Let's see, slavery, lack of woman's suffrage until the 20th century, racial segregation, right to free speech ... etc. Inquisitions, Gaileo's house arrest ... etc. The list of things that (at least by our modern understanding) should be allowed but weren't literally fills our history with black spots.

Not that I personally think Scarlietti is meant to be good. In fact, they seem to have gone out of the way to make him a character you will hate and won't feel the slightest shred of sadness at seeing him die. That nasty, evil laugh and the rhetorical images used in Ep 17 all suggest this.

[Cloudy]

Wonder what forbidden research did Giordano Bruno did during the course of history.

Now strikerS is like most of TV series and movies out there,showing parallel of the war against terror.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, unless there's more to Project F than what season I implies, it's clearly not meant to be a weapon-development project, and Jail was the important honcho in developing its concept...

Ideas like resurrection through memory imprinting and cloning, however illegal they may be, isn't exactly something purely evil...

Forbbiden doesn't always mean pure evil, but it's not one that makes people feel all comfortable either.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Giordano Bruno was burned for his forbidden research. History has many examples when something is forbidden unrighteously.

Unrighteous... Did he also threaten to destroy his countries military?

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Let's see, slavery, lack of woman's suffrage until the 20th century, racial segregation, right to free speech ... etc. Inquisitions, Gaileo's house arrest ... etc. The list of things that (at least by our modern understanding) should be allowed but weren't literally fills our history with black spots.

Not that I personally think Scarlietti is meant to be good. In fact, they seem to have gone out of the way to make him a character you will hate and won't feel the slightest shred of sadness at seeing him die. That nasty, evil laugh and the rhetorical images used in Ep 17 all suggest this.

Yes that's the point of the matter.

"Genius and Madness is only separated by degrees of social acceptance."

History shows how unreliable that is, and only the future is in the position to judge this man's research. However, I am certain they will condemn his wanton and unnecessary acts of treachery. If he was purely doing research and not overtly sabotaging public order, I don't think he'd be a that big a villian, just an annoying rascal researcher like the Raelians.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Cloudy

Wonder what forbidden research did Giordano Bruno did during the course of history.

Now strikerS is like most of TV series and movies out there,showing parallel of the war against terror.

Charges against Giordano Bruno:

1. Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
2. Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
3. Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
4. Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
5. Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
6. Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
7. Dealing in magics and divination.
8. Denying the Virginity of Mary.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Kha

There's a thin line between genius and madness, and it's social acceptance. Villians like this can only be prosecuted for the fallout of their actions, not their research. That's the only way I can say how I'd press charges against Scagletti.

"No matter how noble your intentions were, the horrible end is all that matters"? I think a jury would find THAT guilty.

Only time will tell of course whether Scag's actions work for the betterment or detriment of Midchilda technological research, at which point his portrayal will depend on whether the good outweighs the bad.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Charges against Giordano Bruno:

1. Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
2. Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
3. Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
4. Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
5. Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
6. Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
7. Dealing in magics and divination.
8. Denying the Virginity of Mary.

A textbook example of the greyness in human judement.

Now if I stick my head out and say if Scag didn't go on smuggling raids that endangered lives I'd say he might just be able to not be a villian, albeit somewhat frowned upon.

EDIT: It really says something that a mahou shoujo that can bring up morality debates.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Forbbiden doesn't always mean pure evil, but it's not one that makes people feel all comfortable either.

Unrighteous... Did he also threaten to destroy his countries military?

"Not making feel comfortable" is kind of vague term. Regarding the question of ethics I think that science should be relatively free from it. As I see it TSAB is simply scared to let the technology develop based on the research of LL.

He had no power to do that. Also did Scaglietti have another choice to reach his goals?

[Chaos2Frozen]

I can't believe we even have to bring this up...

A man with known criminial records, who has in several occasion proven to be a threat to public safety, who has access to deadly weapons, who has no qualms with using them as he sees fit, who has destroyed government property...

SUDDENLY says that he's doing this for the sake of the people, SUDDENLY claims he doesn't want to hurt people, SUDDENLY state that the fault is with the Authorities...

And all of a sudden people 'understand' him? People 'forgive' him? People believe that he's 'misunderstood' ?

[Cloudy]

Thanks for the info,Hero in disguise.

Now we need a plot speculation thread and a morality thread like we found in deathnote and code geass sub forums.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

"Not making feel comfortable" is kind of vague term. Regarding the question of ethics I think that science should be relatively free from it. As I see it TSAB is simply scared to let the technology develop based on the research of LL.

He had no power to do that. Also did Scaglietti have another choice to reach his goals?

They have all the reason to be scared. The LL are the evidence of an ancient advanced civilisation that has disappeared. Imaginations can run enough on solid ground that the LL might be the reason that they are gone. Think "Dark Age of Technology", using WH40K ideas, which is a horrendous extension of modern day scientific misuse.

And technically, he had. Remember, the JS were loaned out to another research facility when they were jacked by Spagetti. It means that there are ways for research through legal means.

EDIT: Hmm I can't seem to crack into the discussion.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

As I see it TSAB is simply scared to let the technology develop based on the research of LL.

Your talking about ojects with the power to destroy WORLDS if the wrong switch is flipped! Of course anyone in their right mind wouldn't want to do it!

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Also did Scaglietti have another choice to reach his goals?

E-N-D-A-N-G-E-R-I-N-G L-I-V-E-S

You are trying to justify the belief that anyone with power has a right to do anything they want as long as they feel it right!!!

And don't try to bring Code Geass into this! That is a different case!

[Cloudy]

@Chaos-Don't judge a book by it's cover.

But as they said,time will tell whether Scaggy is outright evil or an antihero with noble intentions.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Kha

EDIT: It really says something that a mahou shoujo that can bring up morality debates.

Morality debates? Considering how little we know of Scaglietti's personal goals thus far (( Relic/Material/That thing he asked of Lutecia back in Augusta )), I think it's more speculative and straw-grasping for now. It'd be so 70s to make him just a typical fruitcake mad scientist, after all.

Though to be honest, from how "businessman" Jail was portrayed at the end, I sincerely find it doubtful that he would want to sink the dimensional ships.

[Chaos2Frozen]

@Cloudy - Don't believe everything you hear on TV.

Seriously, which part of "endangering lives" do you not get?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

"Not making feel comfortable" is kind of vague term. Regarding the question of ethics I think that science should be relatively free from it. As I see it TSAB is simply scared to let the technology develop based on the research of LL.

Ideally that would be so for the sake of efficiency and productivity in the scientific field, unfortunately there are times when ethics simply must intervene, depending on the situation (ex. Human Testing) to guide the science. Science isn't inherently bad, but the people behind it can be, in which case certain limitations and restrictions must be put in place to quell any actions leading to or resulting from an experiment that might prove to be harmful later on.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Morality debates? Considering how little we know of Scaglietti's personal goals thus far (( Relic/Material/That thing he asked of Lutecia back in Augusta )), I think it's more speculative and straw-grasping for now. It'd be so 70s to make him just a typical fruitcake mad scientist, after all.

Though to be honest, from how "businessman" Jail was portrayed at the end, I sincerely find it doubtful that he would want to sink the dimensional ships.

As much as I loved my Scag = SEELE speculation, this opens up a route for a truce while Scag helps the RF6 to protect his interests, then at the last moment pull something to secure his own victory over everything else, and the Aces are once again pushed to their limits. The Aces are h4xx, but the events so far show that even dirt can outdo h4xx with certain circumstances.

Implications for OC thread... :3

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Ideally that would be so for the sake of efficiency and productivity in the scientific field, unfortunately there are times when ethics simply must intervene, depending on the situation (ex. Human Testing) to guide the science. Science isn't inherently bad, but the people behind it can be, in which case certain limitations and restrictions must be put in place to quell any actions leading to or resulting from an experiment that might prove to be harmful later on.

Exactly, the "Slippery Slope" has remarkable consequences. "Brave New World" and Margerat Atwood's books are examples of things down that slope.

[Nemesis]

How about Scagletti being too obessesed with the possibilities of what he could make humans become?

ps.excuse me,but this talk of his intentions is not helping in understanding why he needs vivio or the Wing mentioned in the prophecy

[Cloudy]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

@Cloudy - Don't believe everything you hear on TV.

Seriously, which part of "endangering lives" do you not get?

About your ''endangering lives'' post,did you see that it was posted at the same time as my post?

I hardly see any antiheros or villians with currently unclear motives who didn't endangering lives.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Cloudy

I hardly see any antiheros who didn't endanger lives.

Perhaps, but I don't think it's that simple. To me, the good doctor's entire attitude towards his fellow humans seems... skewed at best. For instance, his comments about wanting to get his hands on "the remnants of Project F" doesn't exactly suggest that he views Fate and Elio as humans first and experimental subjects second.

Besides, what exactly is this grand cause of Scaglietti's? If he really wants to gather support for his wonderful research projects which were being unjustly suppressed by the tyrannical TSAB, he hasn't exactly laid out a compelling case for the benefits of his work. So far, the only products we've seen of his labour are tools for launching a violent armed insurrection - a testament to his genius as a scientist, perhaps, but hardly what I'd call a compelling argument that all the dimensions would be safer with him in charge.