(L) Log Horizon (novel)

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Naole

I get that heals are difficult, but I'm not talking about Akatsuki wearing heals (although she did wear them to practice her dancing at the Palace of Eternal Ice); I'm talking about her adjusting her height by 2-3 cm a month. Medical journals a full of scientific research of motor skills effects of growth spurts on teens. And it's not that hard to deal with the incremental increase in the size of limbs.

As Keroko said, that's nigh impossible due to the rarity of the potions. Even Roderick's potions only allow for the change of gender and basic appearances (which is left ambiguous, so we don't know what "basic" is), and they're pretty costly too.

Also, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with citing teens and growth spurts.

Also Minori definitely has romantic love for Shiroe (which is wrong on so many levels! so.. so wrong)

Cultural thing. It's not taboo over in Japan.

I keep hearing that The Fourland Dukedom is overrun by Monsters; does that mean it's the one without a player City? Does it have a Cathedral though?

in the kanami side-story there's the possibility of a large scale combat event in a town with a Shrine/temple or something like that

If they turn of the Barrier in Akiba doesn't that mean it could be overrun by monsters too?

I believe that it doesn't have a Player city -- Eastal has two player cities (Shibuya and Akiba), so that means one of the Five Territories lacks a Player city. Also, there might not be a Cathedral, but there's probably a Shrine in the area. (Shrines are also respawn points.)

Turning off the barrier simply means that they have to have a defense system up now. A relatively small group of Adventurers could defend a Lander town on their own. Having over 15,000 Adventurers in a city should be more than enough for a defense, not to mention that most of the monsters in the immediate area are probably under level 40, from what we've seen.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Player: takes dump
Planet monster spawn underneath Player
Planet monster attacks.

>Planet

Holy moly, that monster must be huge.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

As Keroko said, that's nigh impossible due to the rarity of the potions. Even Roderick's potions only allow for the change of gender and basic appearances (which is left ambiguous, so we don't know what "basic" is), and they're pretty costly too.

Didn't volume six list out the features that Roderick's potions can change?

Unlike the real 'appearance reset potions', it is the weak version that can only reset 2 out of the dozen setings like gender, height, weight, body shape, hair color, eye color and skin color.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Didn't volume six list out the features that Roderick's potions can change?

Reading chapters with a headache doesn't work out very well.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Naole

I get that heals are difficult, but I'm not talking about Akatsuki wearing heals (although she did wear them to practice her dancing at the Palace of Eternal Ice); I'm talking about her adjusting her height by 2-3 cm a month. Medical journals a full of scientific research of motor skills effects of growth spurts on teens. And it's not that hard to deal with the incremental increase in the size of limbs.

Y'know, she could just be that short in real life. I've met some pretty short people IRL; my mom's about five feet or so, Takamina is ridiculously short (which was why for the first couple of years in AKB48 she used a high ponytail to seem taller ) She's also no longer a teen - she's in her twenties. She mentions she's the same age as Shiroe, which means she's probably in her early twenties, maybe 25 at the most. (Ye gods, Akatsuki is a christmas cake. ) She's so used to her current height that being taller would be difficult for mer.

Besides, nothing wrong with being short. Makes it easier for Henrietta to cuddle.

Also Minori definitely has romantic love for Shiroe (which is wrong on so many levels! so.. so wrong)

Oh, come on. It's like teenagers worldwide have never had crushes on older people of the opposite gender. I can still remember my first crush: I was twelve, she was in her mid-twenties, and to me she was the moon and the stars, clever and pretty and kind and I adored her with all my heart.

Then she got married and I eventually had to deal with things and come to terms with how my crush would be unrequited and I moved on. (Although, embarrassingly enough, according to my mom, it was the most obvious thing in the world. Though by the time we had that conversation, about 15 years had passed. )

Besides, assuming Minori is 14 and Shiroe is 24... that's ten years. It's not insurmountable.

[mucen]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

She's also no longer a teen - she's in her twenties. She mentions she's the same age as Shiroe, which means she's probably in her early twenties, maybe 25 at the most.

Besides, assuming Minori is 14 and Shiroe is 24... that's ten years. It's not insurmountable.

Akatsuki is about the same age as Shiroe. Akatsuki's 20 y/o, Shiroe's 23 and Minori's 14. Also, Shiro's shorter IRL than his ET Shiroe.

[Aggelos]

Personally 10 years isn't really an issue in relationships today anyway.
While it may be frowned upon within the community, there are loads of examples
from western society that age is redundant in personally relationships as long as they
are over the legal age of their country.

Even in the states you can find people with spouses that are twice they own age.

Besides, its just a pairing tease. And the age rating or genre of the book wouldn't
go that far into anything that will be considered inappropriate in any global region.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Aggelos

Personally 10 years isn't really an issue in relationships today anyway.
While it may be frowned upon within the community, there are loads of examples
from western society that age is redundant in personally relationships as long as they
are over the legal age of their country.

Even in the states you can find people with spouses that are twice they own age.

Besides, its just a pairing tease. And the age rating or genre of the book wouldn't
go that far into anything that will be considered inappropriate in any global region.

"Legal age" is the key here.

Age difference issues aside I think we can all agree that to even suggest that a 14 year old Girl (Minori) and a 24 year old man (Shiroe) can have a romantic relationship is universally frowned upon; in most modern legal systems there'd be legal consequences for the man (Shiroe) .

Anyway my Queries for the day!

• This Plant Hwyaden was it created by Nureha or is it part of the factions of the people of the land and Nureha just gave it substance in the form of a Guild?
  
  Given that Guilds are part of the world system and Guilds effectively govern the activities of their members; would I be wrong to assume that Plant Hwyaden is akin to a one party Dictatorship?
  
  The freedom to Create, join or leave a guild can be considered to be similar to the freedom to join & support political organizations in the real world (in essence voting with their feet) Given that the Guild System is Hard wired into the world system.
  
  Since Guild in this world are Clan, Business and political organization combined Plant Hwyaden would and should be a terrifying Idea for people coming from a Democratic political system.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Naole

"Legal age" is the key here.

Age difference issues aside I think we can all agree that to even suggest that a 14 year old Girl (Minori) and a 24 year old man (Shiroe) can have a romantic relationship is universally frowned upon; in most modern legal systems there'd be legal consequences for the man (Shiroe) .

Anyway my Queries for the day!

• This Plant Hwyaden was it created by Nureha or is it part of the factions of the people of the land and Nureha just gave it substance in the form of a Guild?
  
  Given that Guilds are part of the world system and Guilds effectively govern the activities of their members; would I be wrong to assume that Plant Hwyaden is akin to a one party Dictatorship?
  
  The freedom to Create, join or leave a guild can be considered to be similar to the freedom to join & support political organizations in the real world (in essence voting with their feet) Given that the Guild System is Hard wired into the world system.
  
  Since Guild in this world are Clan, Business and political organization combined Plant Hwyaden would and should be a terrifying Idea for people coming from a Democratic political system.

"Legal Age" isn't key and you're confusing it with moral/ethical taboos. In case of Japan the legal age of consent is 13, whereas marriage is 16 for Females and 18 for Males. But like always even under legal circumstances there's all those shades of gray in these stuff and people thinking something is immoral when age difference is involved.

Also so far they aren't in a relationship, it's just a one sided crush from Minori's side; which most people already explained it is common for teenagers, geez. Even when I was a teenager taking english or japanese classes I had a crush on a classmate and a teacher, 7 years and 12 years older respectively.

And let's not forget that the characters accepted they might be living in another world with different set of rules. Some of them self stablished like the RT in Akiba. Or take a look at the nobles where 15 y/o girls are presented to the bigger society and all the things that it represents.

As for Akatsuki's height there are already many reasons given in the novel and anime. First she's 20 years old, so she's past her growth.

During the early anime episodes it was visually hinted but explained in the novel that because of size differences from your real self, people had problems adjusting to their bodies and any related physical activity. Shiroe stumbled/fell a few times in the first episode because of it. So it was natural for Akatsuki dropping the big male body to her "normal" girl body and height.

Spoiler for further info on Akatsuki's height from novel:

In the former real world she was pretty small and even while she was already in college, one neighborhood middle schooler confessed to her thinking she was his age.

[Tenzen12]

Why are we talking about legal age This is no japan anymore, and only law making body is Round table council which has more important issue that this anyway. Ethical PoV is only problem here.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Kamui04

"Legal Age" isn't key and you're confusing it with moral/ethical taboos. In case of Japan the legal age of consent is 13, whereas marriage is 16 for Females and 18 for Males. But like always even under legal circumstances there's all those shades of gray in these stuff and people thinking something is immoral when age difference is involved.

in "Japan the legal age of consent is 13" this is shocking stuff! I can't imagine something like this in the 2 countries for which i'm a citizen

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Naole

in "Japan the legal age of consent is 13" this is shocking stuff! I can't imagine something like this in the 2 countries for which i'm a citizen

several states in the US recently raise their age of consent form 14 to 16. Several still have it at 14. All those are a part the holy then through bible belt states known for their family values.

btw which countries do you have citizenship? A lot of the European country have surprisingly low age of consent as well.

Originally Posted by Naole

This Plant Hwyaden was it created by Nureha or is it part of the factions of the people of the land and Nureha just gave it substance in the form of a Guild?

*Nureha publicly created it.
but someone else planted the idea there.

Given that Guilds are part of the world system and Guilds effectively govern the activities of their members; would I be wrong to assume that Plant Hwyaden is akin to a one party Dictatorship?

this differs form the Round Table how? The RT is basically made of unelected officials who are represented by the biggest and most influential guilds back by Shiroe's ablility to blackball anyone who doesn't play by their rules.

The freedom to Create, join or leave a guild can be considered to be similar to the freedom to join & support political organizations in the real world (in essence voting with their feet) Given that the Guild System is Hard wired into the world system.

just becuase you can't create a new guild doesn't mean its members can't have fractions. Take Republican Part, there is the Tea Party Wing, The Business Wing and the Libertarian Wing.

Since Guild in this world are Clan, Business and political organization combined Plant Hwyaden would and should be a terrifying Idea for people coming from a Democratic political system.

it might horrified or after being transported to a different world, they might also feel a lot safer as well. You would be surprise at how fast and easy people form democratic countries can take to totalitarianism, especially if they are under tremendous stress form being transported to a different world.

I think personally think Akiba was headed toward a single guild rule like Plant Hwyaden before Shiroe's intervention. The big guilds were already absorbing a lot of the smaller guilds and would eventually have morph into one huge guild with a ruling council made of the same people in the RT now but minus the smaller guild leaders.
The small guilds and non-guild Independents would have either ended up joining this huge guild or leaving Akiba.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

several states in the US recently raise their age of consent form 14 to 16. Several still have it at 14. All those are a part the holy then through bible belt states known for their family values.

.

First let me Apologize unreservedly for the fact that my ignorance has dragged all of you into this uncomfortable topic. ( Xellos; I'm British and South African).

According to my cousin in the US the age of consent is 16,17 or 18 depending where you live "The age of consent in Wisconsin is 18 and there is no close-in-age exception"

Getting away from that topic; the difference between Plant Hwyaden and the Round Table is subtle but crucial; it has to do with The freedom to Create, join or leave a Guild! Plant Hwyaden is a Guild Dictatorship while the Round Table is a Council of Guilds; in that sense Plant Hwyaden governs the people while the Round Table Governs the city of Akiba thus leaving each guild to govern its own members.

In a way Plant Hwyaden is an actual Government while the Round Table is essentially a city bureaucracy. Factions are not necessarily a bad thing in political organization, but in a Guild System the GuildMaster (Essentially the Guild owner) wields absolute ultimate power, and thus in a mega guild like Plant Hwyaden in a player city the GuildMaster is the Dictator.

Though it is unelected the Round Table on the contrary exercises administrative control over the city of Akiba with no centralized control and authority but rather by consensus.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Naole

First let me Apologize unreservedly for the fact that my ignorance has dragged all of you into this uncomfortable topic. ( Xellos; I'm British and South African).

i can see you not just newly reg but having even a lurker here long
Trust me when i say this topic is practically tame compare to some of the stuff that gets this discuss in the past in this forum.

Getting away from that topic; the difference between Plant Hwyaden and the Round Table is subtle but crucial; it has to do with The freedom to Create, join or leave a Guild! Plant Hwyaden is a Guild Dictatorship while the Round Table is Council; in that sense Plant Hwyaden governs the people while the Round Table Governs the city of Akiba thus leaving each guild to govern its own members.

In a way Plant Hwyaden is an actual Government while the Round Table is essentially a city bureaucracy. Factions are not necessarily a bad thing in political organization, but in a Guild System the GuildMaster (Essentially the Guild owner) wields absolute ultimate power, and thus in a mega guild like Plant Hwyaden in a player city the GuildMaster is the Dictator.

Though it is unelected the Round Table on the contrary exercises administrative control over the city of Akiba with no centralized control and authority but rather by consensus.

the day to day control of PH is run by a council which is probably made of Former Guild Masters. Their Authority is back by the Guild Master's control of the Cathedral. The ability to blackball anyone who doesn't play by their rules.

The Day to day control of Akiba is run by the RT, members of which are the largest and most influential guild masters. Their Authority is back by Shiroe's control of the Guild Building. The ability to blackball anyone who doesn't play by their rules.

i really don't see much of a difference in how either city is run.

[NorthernFallout]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Y'know, she could just be that short in real life.

Very much so. My shift manager at work is roughly 150cm and fit as hell. Same with some classmates years back. And if they ain't rare in Scandinavian countries, they ain't rare in the rest of the world.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

i really don't see much of a difference in how either city is run.

In Akiba even a small Guild can go about its business; craft items, raid nearby or far away dungeons & freely sell there loot in the market. the same can not be said for Plant Hwyaden controlled city.

Like I said before The freedom to Create, join or leave a Guild has a far bigger impact on the feel of the city. in Vol. 5 you had the libra festival (For small Guilds) where small Guilds showcased their goods to Adventurers and lenders alike. Think IBM & microsoft then Google and others.

Small Guilds are like an engine for Creativity!

Freedom is the answer here; Freedom of movement and Freedom of association.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Naole

In Akiba even a small Guild can go about its business; craft items, raid nearby or far away dungeons & freely sell there loot in the market. the same can not be said for Plant Hwyaden controlled city.

Who said people can't craft items and sell them? The Council probably takes certain percentage, that is no different then taxes by government. The RT collects a certain base on usage of the guild building.

As for raids and Farming, guess what if you belong to a small guild that was push out of the best farming spot by the large guild you might feel a lot differently. Now you can put your name on a list and wait you turn to Farm and raid.

Like I said before The freedom to Create, join or leave a Guild has a far bigger impact on the feel of the city. in Vol. 5 you had the libra festival (For small Guilds) where small Guilds showcased their goods to Adventurers and lenders alike. Think IBM & microsoft the Google and others.

Who said Minami didn't have any festivals? The novels certainly haven't said anything. Look at Roderic's Firm, people in the firm divided themselves up depending on interested and started research groups on topic they are interested in. Same thing probably happen in PH, people with similar interest and backgrounds probably form groups within PH.

[Naole]

I don't know that Plant Hwyaden allows freedom of movement, association or expression for all we know the leaders direct and Control everything; otherwise why the need for a single Guild. Real world experience suggests that one party systems are inherently repressive.

Plant Hwyaden has clearly displayed a tendency to be repressive by restricting Guilds.

Why would there be a need to Attack the Akiba Round Table? When persuasion would work better than confrontation if the goals are aligned?

You only attack your enemies; therefore Plant Hwyaden must run contrary to the Akiba Round Table

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Naole

I don't know that Plant Hwyaden allows freedom of movement, association or expression for all we know the leaders direct and Control everything; otherwise why the need for a single Guild. Real world experience suggests that one party systems are inherently repressive.

Plant Hwyaden has clearly displayed a tendency to be repressive by restricting Guilds.

Why would there be a need to Attack the Akiba Round Table? When persuasion would work better than confrontation if the goals are aligned?

You only attack your enemies; therefore Plant Hwyaden must run contrary to the Akiba Round Table

I would think that Plant Hwyaden simply laid out ground rules, and whoever disagreed with it would get kicked out of the city or PK'ed and locked in the Cathedral. It's like Shiroe's plan, except on a much larger scale and without the consent of the other guilds.

Spoiler for non-translated info, spoilers gathered from earlier in the thread and from /a/:

Kazuhiko, one of the former DTP members, is now in Minami and tries to make sure that people are kept safe. Even though he's part of Plant Hwyaden, he runs on his own agenda (such as sending Tetra to help Shiroe so that Shiroe will turn his attention to Minami) and leads a group that essentially serves as his own private army.

As far as I'm concerned, Nureha could have been trying to capture Shiroe's attention. As it's stated in the novel, Akiba has little to no information about Minami's status. Nureha, who wants Shiroe, would want to capture his fashion in a more dramatic manner.

[Nvis]

Originally Posted by Voceane

Did you try to walk with heels?
You can't run with heels.
You need a plane and hard floor to be able to walk.
I know that most manga have girls who fight with heels but it's IMPOSSIBLE.

The talk about heels has now got my esteemed attention.

Currently in the anime Akatsuki's wearing heels with the Round table/Eastal conference uniform.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Naole

I don't know that Plant Hwyaden allows freedom of movement, association or expression for all we know the leaders direct and Control everything; otherwise why the need for a single Guild. Real world experience suggests that one party systems are inherently repressive.

Plant Hwyaden has clearly displayed a tendency to be repressive by restricting Guilds.[quote]
That was need to done because the larger guilds were kicking the smaller guilds around in good farming and raid spots. You might agree with the solution but its a solution.

Why would there be a need to Attack the Akiba Round Table? When persuasion would work better than confrontation if the goals are aligned?

You only attack your enemies; therefore Plant Hwyaden must run contrary to the Akiba Round Table

It wan't PH that was attacking Akiba but a faction inside PH. Nureha is the guildmaster but she is actually a puppet.

The mastermind behind Nureha is behind the attack on RT.