True Tears - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Personally, I read Hiromi differently. She's in the extremely unfortunate situation that she has to grow up in a dysfunctional foster family, devoid of any love towards her. She can't even try to get closer with Shinichiro without triggering the ire of her stepmother (remember the earlier episodes). But she isn't really "cold", she has a temper under her teflon coating. She WANTS to be loved, but she doesn't think she can, so she remains evasive, except for her friend from the basketball team. This causes her to develop this bitter, almost embittered undertone when dealing with people. One can mark this as "broken" if you want, but I find it unfitting because "broken" implies a certain degree of resignation. But I don't see any resignation inside her. Pain, yes. But she hasn't given up.

I have to say that I agree with your "different read". All in all, Hiromi is supposed to be a character we sympathize with, just as Shinichirou does. And just as Shinichirou did in the beginning of the show, we're supposed to believe that she can be saved. That very realization points to the suggestion that she isn't "broken", but rather that she's suffering. Over the course of the show, we've slowly been introduced to the reasons behind her melancholy/depression and her distant attitude. And I agree that it represented a sort of defense mechanism she had acquired in an attempt to shield herself from the pain of her surroundings. So yes, all that to say, we read the character in a very similar way.

I suppose the concession is that if the show wasn't able to engender the same sort of sympathy in other viewers, then perhaps it wasn't quite able to achieve what it set out to do. However, I find myself wondering whether that could either be because some of it reflects a different cultural/personal read on the behaviour (in other words, maybe some people couldn't relate to the way Hiromi was acting because they're not used to seeing people act in that way when faced in a similar situation, and so couldn't sympathize with her), or because some people are seeing the entire show throw the rose-coloured glasses of "us vs. them" (as it relates to their favoured heroine).

And yes, there is hope! This is the sort of serious discussion about the characters and the plot that I'd love to see more of.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Basically, I like Hiromi and feel for her. Her "lying" seemed like a necessity to her at the time, to avoid telling Shin what she then thought was the truth about their relationship. Then the pressure got too much and she just told him, but she was already trapped by her own misdirection.

I'd say she can be manipulative, but that doesn't bother me either. Telling Shin she liked Jun was an attempt to manipulate, but not for any selfish reasons, for the sake of Nakagami family harmony.

Warming her hands at her dark knight's burning bike was fairly amazing, but I'll put it down to shock and weirdness. Yes, her scarred history has left her weird. But I wouldn't use the word "broken," even though she is certainly not psychologically whole.

The sunny real Hiromi shows up from time to time (with her friend in the lunchroom, with Shin in the bathroom, etc.) Shin said in ep1 that what he loved about her was her smile, and that she was a sunny person (or words to that effect). This past year has been a trial.

But her occasional snide remarks actually endear her to me, and make her more than just a pale, limp princess waiting to be rescued.

[Mentar]

I'm honestly confused, could you please elaborate? Maybe I'm forgetting something important?

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Basically, I like Hiromi and feel for her. Her "lying" seemed like a necessity to her at the time, to avoid telling Shin what she then thought was the truth about their relationship. Then the pressure got too much and she just told him, but she was already trapped by her own misdirection.

What "lying" are you referring to? It can't be the oniichan bit, since it's plainly obvious that she _believed_ what she said. Why shouldn't she? It made alot of sense and explained her stepmother's hatred.

I don't quite get it?

I'd say she can be manipulative, but that doesn't bother me either. Telling Shin she liked Jun was an attempt to manipulate, but not for any selfish reasons, for the sake of Nakagami family harmony.

I flatly disagree here. I'm convinced that she was genuine when she spoke about her interest in Jun - after all, she also told this to her Basketball friend, and she was VISIBLY shocked when she realized that Shinichiro had been listening to it, too. Also keep in mind that right after that - in the next episode - she explained her interest in alot of detail. IMHO she's been telling the truth. She WAS interested. However, she's not stupid, and the way the date was arranged was obviously insincere.

Warming her hands at her dark knight's burning bike was fairly amazing, but I'll put it down to shock and weirdness. Yes, her scarred history has left her weird. But I wouldn't use the word "broken," even though she is certainly not psychologically whole.

Weird, hm? I read this reaction as one more piece of evidence that she is NOT broken. It's "making the best out of a crappy situation" at work here. She's cold, so why not warm your hands at the fire? That's my read of her defense mechanism: Ignore/phase out what's unpleasant and which you can't change, and make the best out of the rest.

But her occasional snide remarks actually endear her to me, and make her more than just a pale, limp princess waiting to be rescued.

Heh. That's for sure

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Basically, I like Hiromi and feel for her. Her "lying" seemed like a necessity to her at the time, to avoid telling Shin what she then thought was the truth about their relationship.
.

I wonder if lying is the correct word to use in this case? I want to say self denial since lying seems a really strong word for what steps she took to protect her own feelings.

[w00tness]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

What is her image you are speaking of? I don't see why it isn't suitable for her, or anyone for that matter, to listen to rock music. My mother likes classic rock music as well, but that is just personal taste. The images and impressions of Hiromi made by others actually made her laughed in this episode, at the folly of others who had such high opinion of her just because she got good grade and good look. She is a human, just like everyone, not a damnable "flower in a high cliff".

Thats my point. You see, I have come to expect girls to fit in certain stereotypes in anime. And in the beginning, I thought that Hiromi would fit in the "nice, sweet, shy, quiet girl type". Even in the anime, Shins mom frequently comments on her "sweet docile" look that "got everyone on her side". Now personally, I wouldnt expect someone with that sort of image to enjoy rock music. Which leads to the point that I guess despite her appearances, Hiromi's just another teenager trying to cope with an extraordinary lifestyle (is living with the person you like, learning that he might be your brother, knowing that his mom hates you for whatever your mom did anywhere near normal?). I like how Hiromi's character is being developed. People criticize her for her actions, but to me, her choices and decisions up till now have all made sense and are completely believable to me. They might not be the right choice, or the choice a nice or good person would make, but I can understand why she made them, and thus in that sense, I would say that Hiromi is more real, acts more human than any of the other characters, including Shin.

[tejvenim]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Nice post. I just want to thrash out the point about her "path to self destruction". I actually do think she was on that path. If it wasn't for Shin's hug and then Shin's mum actually treating her like a person instead of a hell spawn I think she would have broke in a really visible way.

You think that Hiromi is walking towards self-destruction. I don't think so.

I think that's the cultural difference.

In a normal Japanese dramas, everything will turn out well. Hiromi suffers due to inexperience, Hiromi mature and overcome her sufferings. Hiromi become a happier person. The current crisis that Hiromi suffers is just a stimulus that can make her grow to become a better person.

In normal American movies/novels, everything walk towards destruction. Hiromi suffers due to inexperience. Hiromi cannot overcome her sufferings and self-destruct. Hiromi end up as a broken person. The current crisis that Hiromi suffers is going to destroy her.

The way I look at Hiromi is influenced by Japanese drama which have positive ending, on the other hand you're influenced by American movies/novels which have negative ending. That's the cultural difference. I don't grow up watching American movies and reading American books, I grow up watching Japanese drama, so I'm positive about the outcome of Hiromi.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I actually agree with the attitude behind what Mentar said, even if I use different words. I used to believe that she did "like" Jun, but her obvious sighing over Shin has made me, on balance, think it was almost all invention, intended to give an excuse not to respond to Shin. But she did find Jun attractive, I'd say. Having written several times saying that she liked him and been laughed at for my trouble, I guess I'm a little cautious now, lol.

I feel as if I'm in a time-warp here, since I have previously resisted the word "liar," myself. But I do think she has told at least that one untruth: that she was romantically interested in Jun. I'm glad someone still believes my original opinion. I hope to be able to go back to it.

At the burning bike, I think a person not in shock and/or not weird would have (a) at least asked if the other person was okay, and (b) not have said his pride and joy was "pretty" as it burned.

I think the rock music fits perfectly with our growing understanding that Hiromi is not that pale damsel, but (a) a real teenager, and (b) a person with a sharper interior than exterior.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I actually agree with the attitude behind what Mentar said, even if I use different words. I used to believe that she did "like" Jun, but her obvious sighing over Shin has made me, on balance, think it was almost all invention, intended to give an excuse not to respond to Shin. But she did find Jun attractive, I'd say. Having written several times saying that she liked him and been laughed at for my trouble, I guess I'm a little cautious now, lol.

Well, I'm a bit late to the party, since I only recently marathoned to be up to date, but... I really see no evidence that her attraction towards Jun she expressed towards Tomoyo was "invented". It's logical and natural. Also, keep in mind that she said that _while she didn't know that Shin was around_ (!), and that most certainly was nothing with the intent to avoid an answer to Shin. Even so, about what? It's not like Shin had posed any question to her which she would have had to answer in the first place.

So what "sighing" are you referring to? If it's her reactions about Shin's frustrations to freely approach her: I think she did pick up that Shin was interested in her. However, throughout all the time, she was living under the assumption that they were half-siblings, and this caused her to keep a certain distance in order not to have him romantically fall for him (even though it was clear that she was longing for some affection herself). Rewatch the scene where she breaks and spills the ugly truth (which wasn't) to him. It hurt her, bigtime. And it wouldn't have if she'd be ignorant or indifferent towards Shin's feelings.

As for Tomoyo, I'd say she didn't want to have the Shin-issue pushed into the limelight, so that it doesn't spread and "go wrong". That however doesn't disprove in any way that she'd been interested in Jun. After all, Shin was "off limits" for her, from her point of view.

I feel as if I'm in a time-warp here, since I have previously resisted the word "liar," myself. But I do think she has told at least that one untruth: that she was romantically interested in Jun. I'm glad someone still believes my original opinion. I hope to be able to go back to it.

Why untruth? I mean, calling someone a liar is a pretty harsh allegation. And I see absolutely nothing remotely sufficient to back up this claim. At the beginning of ep4, she was talking very freely about how she first came in contact to Jun, and her explanation - attraction, but a feeling of futility - is very much in character.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mentar

As for Tomoyo, I'd say she didn't want to have the Shin-issue pushed into the limelight, so that it doesn't spread and "go wrong". That however doesn't disprove in any way that she'd been interested in Jun. After all, Shin was "off limits" for her, from her point of view.

I guess it's sort of an open question as to how much Hiromi actually liked/likes Jun. The time she's spent with him has certainly been "tainted" by all the drama regarding Shinichirou and the situation that led to their pairing up. I think the idea that she found him at least somewhat attractive is reasonable, but it does seem to have that "concessionary" feeling -- as if to say that it wasn't necessarily her first pick. I got the feeling that, at the time she made that declaration to Tomoyo, she was trying to convince herself as much as anything else. In other words, it sort of sounded to me more like "The person I like is #4 [since Shinichirou isn't an option]". It all fits in with her overall attempts to resist, avoid, and evade Shinichirou's advances, no matter how much it pained her to do so, for reasons well-established. So, yeah... "it's complicated". Calling her a "liar" is probably a bit too big of an assumption.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

...So what "sighing" are you referring to?...As for Tomoyo, I'd say she didn't want to have the Shin-issue pushed into the limelight, so that it doesn't spread and "go wrong". That however doesn't disprove in any way that she'd been interested in Jun. After all, Shin was "off limits" for her, from her point of view....Why untruth? I mean, calling someone a liar is a pretty harsh allegation. And I see absolutely nothing remotely sufficient to back up this claim. At the beginning of ep4, she was talking very freely about how she first came in contact to Jun, and her explanation - attraction, but a feeling of futility - is very much in character.

It's like listening to my own former arguments. OMG, maybe I was right! The "sighing" is for example the couple of times she has seen Noe around Shin and looked peeved, like when Tomoyo first said they seemed to be going together. Or the time in her room, when she seemed to want him to talk about what had happened between them earlier on the beach.

Nothing "disproves" her interest in Jun. But she was upset that Shin had set them up. When she told Tomoyo, this place erupted in people who were sure that she was lying, just as it did when Shin's mother said they were siblings. Those voices appear to have been right about the siblings statement, at the very least. Unless the family has just decided to hide the truth.

I have posted several times about her untruths being "white lies" whose intent was to preserve the family's harmony. I don't think that is any kind of terrible accusation. I think white lies are often preferable to truth. I will not call her a "liar," as numerous people have done. I'll just say that she was probably not telling the truth about having her eye on Jun in more than a passing way, and that she told the probable lie in order to stop people talking about her and Shin, and picked someone she really did find attractive, but who was not at their school to have to actually deal with. But I'd love for events to prove me wrong and you (and my former self) right that she feels more strongly toward Jun.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

It's like listening to my own former arguments. OMG, maybe I was right! The "sighing" is for example the couple of times she has seen Noe around Shin and looked peeved, like when Tomoyo first said they seemed to be going together. Or the time in her room, when she seemed to want him to talk about what had happened between them earlier on the beach.

Nothing "disproves" her interest in Jun. But she was upset that Shin had set them up. When she told Tomoyo, this place erupted in people who were sure that she was lying, just as it did when Shin's mother said they were siblings. Those voices appear to have been right about the siblings statement, at the very least. Unless the family has just decided to hide the truth.

I have posted several times about her untruths being "white lies" whose intent was to preserve the family's harmony. I don't think that is any kind of terrible accusation. I think white lies are often preferable to truth. I will not call her a "liar," as numerous people have done. I'll just say that she was probably not telling the truth about having her eye on Jun in more than a passing way, and that she told the probable lie in order to stop people talking about her and Shin, and picked someone she really did find attractive, but who was not at their school to have to actually deal with. But I'd love for events to prove me wrong and you (and my former self) right that she feels more strongly toward Jun.

After reading you guys post you 2 have got me rethinking what i thought could be a possible ending and I have expanded it to allow that there could be a chance that Hiromi will end up with Jun in the end. After thinking somethings over such as Hiromi is considered the daughter of the family now and the fact that they live together made rethink could a HiromixShin paring really work in the end and im finding doubt. The living situation is similar to to Kouichi and Mao in Kimikiss. I always thought that Hiromi felt Jun was attractive but i never gave serious thought pass the looks stage. But this has got me wondering what does Jun really think of Hiromi? The most we have ever gotten out of Jun was that Hiromi was cute nothing more nothing less.

I must go ponder more.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

After reading you guys post you 2 have got me rethinking what i thought could be a possible ending and I have expanded it to allow that there could be a chance that Hiromi will end up with Jun in the end. After thinking somethings over such as Hiromi is considered the daughter of the family now and the fact that they live together made rethink could a HiromixShin paring really work in the end and im finding doubt. The living situation is similar to to Kouichi and Mao in Kimikiss. I always thought that Hiromi felt Jun was attractive but i never gave serious thought pass the looks stage. But this has got me wondering what does Jun really think of Hiromi? The most we have ever gotten out of Jun was that Hiromi was cute nothing more nothing less.

I must go ponder more.

well, with the summary for episode 10 it is obvious that it is going to be a episode full of break off!

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

It's like listening to my own former arguments. OMG, maybe I was right! The "sighing" is for example the couple of times she has seen Noe around Shin and looked peeved, like when Tomoyo first said they seemed to be going together. Or the time in her room, when she seemed to want him to talk about what had happened between them earlier on the beach.

Nothing "disproves" her interest in Jun. But she was upset that Shin had set them up. When she told Tomoyo, this place erupted in people who were sure that she was lying, just as it did when Shin's mother said they were siblings. Those voices appear to have been right about the siblings statement, at the very least. Unless the family has just decided to hide the truth.

I have posted several times about her untruths being "white lies" whose intent was to preserve the family's harmony. I don't think that is any kind of terrible accusation. I think white lies are often preferable to truth. I will not call her a "liar," as numerous people have done. I'll just say that she was probably not telling the truth about having her eye on Jun in more than a passing way, and that she told the probable lie in order to stop people talking about her and Shin, and picked someone she really did find attractive, but who was not at their school to have to actually deal with. But I'd love for events to prove me wrong and you (and my former self) right that she feels more strongly toward Jun.

*posting this while listening to the ending song

Sekai no Namida's lyrics seem to apply to Hiromi more than any of the other characters, especially the following part (w.0.0.f translation).

The cold rain pours
I want to forget. I have to forget. (Hiromi thought that her feelings for Shin isn't possible because he might be her brother)
While wavering
my heart sinks. It's for you. (this is Hiromi's feelings for Shin)
I'm tellin' a lie (this is Hiromi's feelings for Jun, it's a lie)


Basically, I believe Hiromi was trying to cover up her feelings for Shin by saying that she likes Jun. The other reason (as Kaoru Chujo already stated) would be to avoid more problems for the family. Of course Hiromi can't hold the feelings she had for Shin forever, clear indication of this is her having a hostile attittude towards Noe when she found out Shin is going out with Noe

Hiromi: "So if one side breaks up the other would also have to break up right?"
Jun: "That would be a problem, I'd do anything you want so..."


Hiromi having feelings for Jun? I highly doubt it for 3 reasons:

1. I never saw Hiromi blush when she is going out with Jun.
2. She forced Jun to ride his bike in the snow, even when Jun said that it's dangerous and he could get killed. Putting someone in danger can't really be considered affection.
3. Didn't check/worry whether Jun was alright after their bike crashed into the pile of snow.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Hiromi having feelings for Jun? I highly doubt it for 3 reasons:

1. I never saw Hiromi blush when she is going out with Jun.
2. She forced Jun to ride his bike in the snow, even when Jun said that it's dangerous and he could get killed. Putting someone in danger can't really be considered affection.
3. Didn't check whether Jun was alright after their bike crashed into the pile of snow.

I am of the same school of thought that has always said that Jun name came up for two reasons,
1.He was the only guy she could remember at the moment.
2.He is in another school, so chances of the rumour being spread by Tomoyo were small.

he just happened to be Noe's brother and things got complicated by such a small miscalculation.
Finding someone attractive doesn't mean you love that person, I bet Aiko thinks nobuse is attractive, but she probably always had seen him as a brother instead of someone to lust and make you feel like shin make her feel.

That is the problem for Aiko, once she tasted what love is and she know she doesn't have the same feelings for Nobuse, it is hard to settle. She is still young and there is not doubt she will find someone that make her feel like Shin did. It is too bad that it is not Nobuse. The same go for Hiromi and Jun, jun just doesn't make her feel the same way.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

But I'd love for events to prove me wrong and you (and my former self) right that she feels more strongly toward Jun.

I don't know... if she didn't have strong feelings for Shinichirou, as Tomoyo figured, then why the heavy weight on her shoulders? If she didn't like him "in that way", why the sudden change in behaviour when she found out they may be siblings? Why would Shinichirou going out with Noe bother her so much? Why would Shinichirou remain the main thing on her mind even when she's going out with Jun (if, as suggested, she feels more strongly towards him)? It just doesn't add up to me. I can buy the argument that her saying that she felt something for Jun may not have been a lie, but to say that she likes Jun more than Shinichirou seems to negate a lot of the plot and angst. There'd be no reason to angst over someone possibly being your sibling if you don't love them -- you could just start treating them as a sibling!

So... I think I'd side with your current self over your former self. I think it just makes a bit more sense, in the end.

[grey_moon]

@tejvenim - My statement about Hiromi walking down the path of destruction isn't based on her ending, but what was happening to her from ep1 to 9. Just like her being broken, that is based on her being pushed out of her normal frame of mind to doing stuff that is self destructive to her role as a student. My point is I can't see how any student in the TT world would knowing do something that would stigmatise themselves?

Just because she was on the road to self destruction doesn't mean she can't hop off. In her case she got saved by her friend, Jun's hug and Shin's mum.

Just because she is broken doesn't mean she can't be fixed. Look at her after the crash when Shin charges into her room. Look how unemotional and drained she is... Imagine what was going through her mind when Shin's mum grabbed her and dragged her into the room. Maybe a beating? Another scolding? Instead she got a whisper of an apology and some ice cream.... The fact that Shin's mum took responsibility for Hiromi's action to the headmaster most probably was the real thing that pulled Hiromi out of it, but that action could easily be said to be just Shin's mum showing the good parent's face in public. <- We don't know as we haven't been told enough.


@Idea that Hiromi might like Jun - Well in earlier episodes I was never for or against this point. I think I said I don't see why Hiromi can't like more then one person. I mean those with GF/BF must realise that your other half has their favourite male/female actor or singer and that they must find them attractive in some way neh?

Hiromi denying liking Shin I've always put down to the writers trying to throw us off the scent, but the way they did it really made for some drama. ie The foil who she might possibly like, is the brother of the sister, who is the girl the guy she does like is about to go out with. *deep breath*

By the time Hiromi is actually interacting with Jun she is emotionally distraught by Noe moving in on Shin and Shin building up her hopes and dashing them. So I think we will never know if Jun was just a foil or did she harbour any feelings for him.

*edit*

hee hee golthin just covered my point about her able to find someone else attractive, I take took long to type

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

...Hiromi having feelings for Jun? I highly doubt it for 3 reasons:
1. I never saw Hiromi blush when she is going out with Jun.
2. She forced Jun to ride his bike in the snow, even when Jun said that it's dangerous and he could get killed. Putting someone in danger can't really be considered affection.
3. Didn't check/worry whether Jun was alright after their bike crashed into the pile of snow.

That's a fairly convincing set of reasons -- although this show can also fool you sometimes, and I still don't fully grasp her attitude watching the bike burn. But I have to say that she did respond at least physically when Jun touched her hair and lips when he brought her home after their first date.

[be0wulf]

I thought that when Jun touched her lips she reacted more in a "I don't want you to steal my first kiss" kind of way. She wasn't running away due to embarrassment; it was due to her not wanting to kiss him.

[tun]

I think you're over analyzing the bike burning incident, Kaoru. I think she was just trying to lighten up the mood, however awkwardly she did it.

[Falkor]

Finished episode 09 some time ago, but I didn’t have time to post my comments.

Ai-chan basically vanished from the main stage, but that was no obstacle to enjoy the show the way I have always allowed myself to do so. Hiromi’s conflict was perhaps solve by the end, but yet remains to be seen her feelings for Shin finally coming out in the true form of words—although her tears were enough to imply more than one feeling for that especial person.

The little elopement finished quite fast, as her little act of selfishness. Noe, on the other hand, would most likely become the focus (together with Ai-chan) since her conflict is still in need of resolution now that it was somehow hinted she might be the next one to shed tears—yet not sure on what direction it may be heading.

Noe’s state of mind finally received the scratch it was waiting from outside her delusion when she let Shin become her very own world. That drop of blood came out as the little opening could no longer hold it inside. She was hurt by the very pure and innocent feelings that existed behind her love for Shin and yet the disappointment was probably her own fault. She was no longer allowed to be in self-denial—nor was it possible for her to let her tears out.