Anyway, back to the movie, I like that Alto's and Ranka's personality changed to be more mature. While they admit Sheryl's basically the same, only with a subplot (the spy one) to shoulder. But her personality is unchanged, just given different circumstances to handle. The cuteness and harsh edges were there. Why would they change their most profitable protagonist? That never made sense how come people claimed this.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-11-25 at 19:55.
Reason: Anything labeled "off-topic" is going to get deleted unless moved to the appropriate thread.
Fared better...? He got a bullet in the forehead!!
(But if you mean he was smarter, more sinister, and got a lot more done, then yeah...I agree.)
That's what I meant. His ultimate fate... well, as with everything in the series, we simply don't know with absolute certitude. But if the movies are anything to go by, he probably got some harsh frontier justice, yo.
I like how you try to soften the blow of the Alto x Ranka ship, but ended up giving extra ammunition to legions of yaoi fangirls in their shipping wars instead, a sign that some serious Space Cadet logic is at work here lol.
And your point?
I'm talking about official triangle couples. Sheryl/Alto/Ranka had official art for Alto/Sheryl and Alto/Ranka to prove both sides were canon but one was the official winner. Michael was not part of the "triangle" nor do they ever show him in a romantic fashion but rather a brotherly fashion with Alto. The point remains that there were official art for both sides of this triangle: Ranka and Sheryl alike, thus meaning they were both canon but one was chosen over the other.
Basically, you saying Alto/Ranka was not canon (at all) means that Hikaru and Minmei didn't go on a date, they didn't kiss, neither was in love with the other. That's also like saying that when he chose Misa, his relationship beforehand with Minmei wasn't canon. It happened. It was in the timeline. It is canon. And it works no different for Alto and Ranka either.
And I do believe this is a discussion for the 'Canon' thread.
I would like to remind everyone that this is the second Macross Frontier movie discussion thread. If anyone feels the need to discuss anything beyond the scope of this thread, please find a more suitable thread for it since I'm going to start editing/deleting posts that go off-topic.
I think that speaking about the resolution of the triangle isn't off-topic since... was the whole point for this movie?
Anyway, LMK, nobody is saying that Alto/Ranka wasn't canon in terms of feelings or potentially, when we use it like that is because it wasn't mean to be endgame canon. That better?
That, as this film explicitly pointed out is Sheryl and Alto.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Anyway, LMK, nobody is saying that Alto/Ranka wasn't canon in terms of feelings or potentially, when we use it like that is because it wasn't mean to be endgame canon. That better?
That, as this film explicitly pointed out is Sheryl and Alto.
Actually, they're saying Alto/Ranka wasn't canon at all. Which was my point of stating they are.
And like I said, they just weren't the winners. That's all. Doesn't make them less canon.
What the fudge is going on here? (Thess, you are being waaay too nice, like pacifying a tantrum). What the hell is the point of 'canon' (even if that term is cr4zy in Macross) if people can just walk all over what the staff established? The END of Triangle, people. But fanon is okay, it's great even. And if some people can't accept who wins who in fictional relationship games, then they should just channel what they want with fanmade material, not put up tl;dr posts trying to make their stance as Word of God. Frankly, it's embarrassing and facepalm-worthy. >.>
"I see the real true pairings!" - Sure, now write a fanfic about it.
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*Sigh* I just had to get that out because really! <.<
On to the movie: I guess the staff realized that the stage 2 version of Ai-kun in the series didn't make a cute sidekick for Ranka in the movies. Hence, the cutesy wings.
^ Why did the staff say “it’s fine if Sheryl doesn’t change”?
During the TV series, we managed to get just about the right balance for Sheryl as a character, getting the audience to almost hating her but, in the end, liking her as ‘the Galaxy Fairy’. In fact, we used a lot of different tricks to achieve that. For example, the depictions of Sheryl in the deculture edition and the TV broadcast are different. In the deculture edition, we left out much of Sheryl’s cuteness, whilst in the TV version, we cut down on her harshness and increased the ‘cute’ scenes where you can see what she’s like inside. In other words, all the versions are different. I’m glad that, in creating her this way, we managed to get the audience behind her.[/SPOILER]
That's interesting to know. So I guess the fact that the two editions of the first episode having slightly different material wasn't due entirely to schedule or run time limitations (although I still think the Bluray version of the first episode that combines the two was by far the best version). One thing though -are you sure it was the TV version that's supposed to make Sheryl cute while the Deculture one was supposed to make her seem harsh? Because the Deculture edition is the one that had her murmuring about strawberry pie and squealing with child-like delight when she's viewing frontier through her transport's viewport. Meanwhile the main thing I'm aware of the TV broadcast having that the Deculture edition didn't was the scene where Sheryl takes a fall, then glares at Alto and tells him to keep flying after he catches her. That scene was pretty awesome but it's not exactly one I would say emphasizes her cute side.
What about Leon's picture with Luca's sister? He's holding a surfboard! Clearly, there's something else afoot.
A kappa on a surfboard! Argh!!! My eyes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR
Also, thanks for the interview! I agree that Sheryl didn't need to change - speaking as one who totally disliked her the first couple of episodes in the TV series - but I loved what they did just the same.
I wasn't particularly keen on Sheryl either, until much much later in my case though. But there seem to be a few of us around, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess
Why would they change their most profitable protagonist? That never made sense how come people claimed this.
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby
One thing though -are you sure it was the TV version that's supposed to make Sheryl cute while the Deculture one was supposed to make her seem harsh?
Absolutely positive. There are actually three versions of the episode. The Deculture edition (broadcast Dec 26th 2007), the TV broadcast version (April 3rd 2008) and the Yack Deculture edition (Blu-ray and DVD). Kawamori goes into this in greater detail in the commentary for the first episode (more detailed writeup here), where he notes that the latter is the complete one.
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.
You see occasional signs of Grace and Sheryl having a bond in the TV series (Grace's showing up at the shelter for instance) but if they were supposed to have a particularly strong bond then that's something the TV series kind of failed at portraying. That's one of my biggest problems with the Drama CD stuff about Sheryl and Grace actually -it explains some things pretty well if you accept that they had a strong relationship, something which didn't seem to be the case in the TV series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67
Absolutely positive. There are actually three versions of the episode. The Deculture edition (broadcast Dec 26th 2007), the TV broadcast version (April 3rd 2008) and the Yack Deculture edition (Blu-ray and DVD). Kawamori goes into this in greater detail in the commentary for the first episode (more detailed writeup here), where he notes that the latter is the complete one.
I know that, I mostly watch the Bluray version -I'm not sure if I even have copies of the other two around anymore. It's just that from what I can remember from the differences between the two (and my memory on this is kind of spotty) it seems like it was the Deculture edition that portrayed Sheryl in more of a cute light ("strawberry pie" and her delight upon getting her first look at the Frontier fleet).
Does anyone else wonder if we should move this to another topic? While it came out of a movie related interview that talked about the changes between the TV series and the movie, this is till getting into discussion about the TV series...
That's one of my biggest problems with the Drama CD stuff about Sheryl and Grace actually -it explains some things pretty well if you accept that they had a strong relationship, something which didn't seem to be the case in the TV series.
It was something they couldn't fit in the TV series. In various extra materials, they make it quite clear that there is a fair amount of background stuff (little incidents here and there - e.g. Michel seeing Alto in a kabuki performance as a kid) that didn't make it into the TV series. You can also see how hurt Sheryl is by Grace's betrayal in the TV series, which hints at how much trust she put in the latter. But obviously, it's not something that all viewers pick up on/put stock in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby
I know that, I mostly watch the Bluray version -I'm not sure if I even have copies of the other two around anymore. It's just that from what I can remember from the differences between the two (and my memory on this is kind of spotty) it seems like it was the Deculture edition that portrayed Sheryl in more of a cute light ("strawberry pie" and her delight upon getting her first look at the Frontier fleet).
I double-checked the interview to make sure I had the versions/editions correct...so if anything, it's Kawamori who's not remembering right! (I don't have either of them myself...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby
Does anyone else wonder if we should move this to another topic? While it came out of a movie related interview that talked about the changes between the TV series and the movie, this is till getting into discussion about the TV series...
True...it's only after I started breaking up the interview that I realised how much is related more to the TV series than the films. I'm completely fine with it because I see them all as showing different facets of one story...but if we do want to keep them separate...
Alternatively, would a separate thread for interviews and other background material be better? (cheesie dear, how is your project coming along?)
To highlight another side of her that most people didn't get, perhaps? It seems like only Endo Aya really felt the connection between Sheryl and Grace prior to this second film.
I think that was mostly Grace's change. Sheryl herself didn't change, what they did was to give her a reason to pull her nicer side sooner (with all her barriers): the childhood meeting with Alto, he rescuing her. Those were brought by circumstances, but the base personality is the same.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
It was something they couldn't fit in the TV series. In various extra materials, they make it quite clear that there is a fair amount of background stuff (little incidents here and there - e.g. Michel seeing Alto in a kabuki performance as a kid) that doesn't make it into the TV series. You can also see how hurt Sheryl is by Grace's betrayal in the TV series, which hints at how much trust she put in the latter. But obviously, it's not something that all viewers pick up on/put stock in.
I double-checked the interview to make sure I had the versions/editions correct...so if anything, it's Kawamori who's not remembering right! (I don't have either of them myself...)
True...it's only after I started breaking up the interview that I realised how much is related more to the TV series than the films. I'm completely fine with it because I seem them all as showing different facets of one story...but if we do want to keep them separate...
Alternatively, would a separate thread for interviews and other background material be better? (cheesie dear, how is your project coming along?)
A new thread for interviews might be nice (although there is the question of what to do about all the old interview translations -it seems like it would be good to amalgamate them into one thread so they're easy to find, but on the other hand going through all of that might interfere with the continuing discussion of current interviews). I also wonder what would happen to activity in this thread if the interviews are discussed elsewhere.
But anyhow, let me know what you want to do. If you want to try to make an interview thread we can discuss things there, otherwise I can maybe move some of the TV series related discussion to other threads.
I think that was mostly Grace's change. Sheryl herself didn't change,*snip* Those were brought by circumstances, but the base personality is the same.
Well, I do agree that her personality doesn't change, they just made her loneliness a bit more explicit.
(Though I wouldn't say that Alto or Ranka's personalities have changed all that much either - they just made them a little more mature, almost as if they'd gone through the trials of the TV series before the start of the films.)
But what I meant was that the addition of the spy plot also makes the closeness between Sheryl and Grace more explicit.
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Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji, Part 5
This section is mostly about the films, so without further ado...
[To me, the extent to which I could separate myself from “Macross F” and look at it from the perspective of the audience [was always on my mind.]]
Spoiler for length:
Returning to the Frontier movies, when you finished “False Diva”, was the plot for “Wings” set in stone?
To a certain extent, you could say it was. But the details changed quite a bit when we were actually in production. We started work on the scenario quite early, but even at that stage, Yoshino (Hiroyuki) was saying things like wanting to introduce new characters (laughs). It was quite a rough voyage. From the time of “False Diva”, there was an idea floating around about having a third diva, and we tried quite a few different simulations and even got the plot going with it, but just couldn’t get it done within the time limits of a film. There are many ideas that we had to leave on the cutting room floor – if we’d included them all, “Wings” would probably have been about six hours long.
Six hours…meaning that you had enough ideas for about one cour of a TV series, right? (laughs) Whilst working on “Wings”, the staff also produced Sheryl and Ranka’s music video collection, “Nyan Kuri”, didn’t they?
We thought we might as well try and make something, as quickly as possible, using the time opened up because the scenario had been delayed. But it took us longer than expected, and ended up putting pressure on the production of “Wings”. In the end, we had to conduct an all-out-war, divvying the work to 9 people on the storyboard, 9 directors, 5 chief animation directors and 6 animation directors.
NB: In the "Special Talk" extra on the BD/DVD (at least that's where I seem to remember this discussion being...), Kawamori mentions how this made the character animation noticeably different in various scenes in the film. But they thought it gave it a kind of uniqueness - reflecting, for example, how artistes look different when performing or in public because of make-up etc...——karice
That’s a pretty large-scale effort.
When the songs are added, it feels like the story is completely reset. At that point, more or less, even if there are changes in the direction or animation, we tried to make it something like a change in accent. Similar to the way in which artistes wear make-up completely differently for performances when compared to how they are in everyday life.
How many years of production on “Macross F” would you say were needed for such a compilation to have been possible?
This time, what was important wasn’t just the staff who’d spent years making “Macross F” with us, but also the new staff that came in just to work on the film. Because we’ve spent five years on “Macross F”, working on it right from the initial project stage, we know the story too well. We wanted to know how “Macross F” appeared to someone who knew nothing about it at all. For example, we had assistant director Satou Eiichi and animation producer Hashimoto Taichi and others participate in meetings about the scenario even though they knew very little about “Macross F”.
So you needed people who were able to view it from the audience’s perspective.
Yes, that’s right. Because there is no way that we could have completely separated ourselves from “Macross F” if it had been just us. To me, the extent to which I could separate myself from “Macross F” and look at it from the perspective of the audience [was always on my mind]. For example, when you go overseas to do research for a project, you can look at Japan from an outsider’s perspective, and that makes it possible to change the work you make. This time, we went to Alcatraz as part of our research, and that changed our awareness. Even the drawing of the storyboard, we tried to make sure we didn’t just hole up in the Satellite studio, but, as much as possible, tried to get out and as far away from Tokyo as we could.
So, would you say that if you don’t view it from the audience’s perspective, what you end up with is monotony?
Take the dogfight scenes that we’ve produced with CG: [those of us who’ve worked on them for a while] have gotten completely used to them, so we keep making them just that little bit faster. But the eyes of [normal] viewers can’t keep up with that. In this case, I gave the direction to make it “slower, as slow as you can go”, which is slower than I personally would have liked. The CG staff for this film were also comprised of many old hands – many of the staff from “Macross Zero” [reenlisted and gave us their help/experience]. Furthermore, CG was used not only for the dogfights, but also for the concerts, so we ended up having lots more to do than originally planned.
During the live scenes, not only the sets and the characters but even the audience was made using CG, right? What changes with this development?
Depicting the audience using CG means that we can make the crowd move, so there is a great increase in the freedom of camera movement. Of course, we also depict the audience in [normal] animation, being limited in both the number of cuts and people, [all we could do is pull back the camera and take a shot]. With CG, however, we can even bring the camera right to the side of the audience members. With that, we can also include the voices of the audiences members more easily. It’s not really interesting unless we try something new, after all (laughs). In Sheryl’s concert at the start, we included the big welcoming cheer; in Ranka’s, we added a cut for “let’s all sing together!” and for the concert in the prison, we based it on [the idea of rousing the crowd up with the addition of unusual percussion elements]*. In particular, the prison concert had “Seikan Hikou” (“Interstellar Flight”), a song that everyone knew. At the “Gira Summer Festival” event we held in August 2010, I figured we might as well make a recording of cheering voices. We asked the audience to help us with that, and the recording we made turned out to be useful for “Wings”.
* new word for me: [ドンチャン騒ぎ] means playing around/getting excited by the addition of things like taiko, shamisen or a flourish of trumpets. Not quite as much fun to try and translate though… ——karice
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edit: also, see my sig for what will probably be my final version of the subs. It's basically a pretty extensive reedit of what CGs put out, but I still don't have my copies of the script, so a few lines (especially the technical stuff) might still be off. I also had no time to do more than the briefest of touch-ups to the lyrics, and there's also a Zero reference that I need to check. And please excuse any grammatical errors, it was a rush job... But hopefully, Heibi and co. will come through with their version soon! edit: removed
(Though I wouldn't say that Alto or Ranka's personalities have changed all that much either - they just made them a little more mature, almost as if they'd gone through the trials of the TV series before the start of the films.)
Strangely enough, that's exactly how I feel, and exactly how I feel about DYRL as well.
It's as though the PLOT is covering (roughly) the same events and time frame, but the CHARACTERS and MECHA are from a sequel. (In DYRL it helps that the characters actually are a year or two older than their TV counterparts...that doesn't seem to be the case for the Frontier movies, however.)
They did skip all the rivalry between Alto and Michael, removed Altos family problems, changed his rage over not having a clear direction in life into and inability to reconcile his loathing of being confined and his inherent love for his home to some unneeded gender issues.
So, yeah, they removed all of Altos old baggage and replaced it with some weird pseudo-issues, which made his character start out more mature. Any character without major internal conflicts would do so.
even cathy being only 22, thats just not really possible.
At 22, being a bridge bunny is believable. Naval operators aren't very old people even in real life. Nonetheless, I was more or less referring to SDF Macross. Most of the bridge bunnies in the original show were in their teens!!
At 22, being a bridge bunny is believable. Naval operators aren't very old people even in real life. Nonetheless, I was more or less referring to SDF Macross. Most of the bridge bunnies in the original show were in their teens!!
- Tak
...because nearly every qualified person who was older had been killed in the Unification Wars.
He got a bullet in the forehead!!
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