AnimeSuki Forums

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-19, 18:34

I didn't remember that one, but there are other hints that Beatrice was originally "furniture".

In ep3 Ronove says that sometimes furniture can become powerful enough to control demons. And soon after Beatrice hushed him. It is heavily hinted that he was referring to Beatrice.

But what could that mean? Is Beatrice really furniture or is she a servant?

Kitsu · 2009-07-19, 18:41

That furniture thing was shortly before the started to tell Beatirce her story(she didn#t say it exactly that way but she called her furniture that wouldn't make fun out of her or laugh about it) and I think Ronove said that furniture is capable of becoming a witch theirself or something. I would normally read those scnes again now but my Umineko Game died together with my hard disc today.

Oh and would that servant thing fit after, if we believe
Kumasawa=Virgillia
Shannon said that Kumsawa was like a mother to all of the servants (childs)

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-19, 18:51

Yeah that's right he did say that.

The only problem is the fact that at the start of episode3 Virgilia calls Beatrice "milady" and it is obvious that she is the granddaughter of the head of the family.

But then again there might be several persons and things who are called Beatrice.

Kitsu · 2009-07-19, 18:55

Quote:

she is the granddaughter of the head of the family.

Just say Jessica...cause she is the only "Milady" around

Yes, I think there are more than on person/thing called beatrice

Cola91 · 2009-07-19, 18:56

Spoiler for Shannon isn't there theory:

Please prove me wrong if you can so that I can start thinking again XD

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-19, 19:01

I can prove you wrong about Kanon's "crime":

Spoiler for ep4 tea party:

@Kitsu: Yeah the narrator of the scene at the start of ep3 just screams Jessica to me, but unless it is stated in red it can't be proved.

Kitsu · 2009-07-19, 19:02

Jan-Poo beat me to it.

Yes, it can't be proved...but Episode 2 also screams Jessica=Beato like almost any other episode xD

Marion · 2009-07-19, 19:23

Even if everyone had an alibi that prevented them from killing Kanon, there's nothing in red saying everyone had an alibi for attacking him. Someone was down in the boiler room, proven by Battler when they heard the other door opening or something.

Cola91 · 2009-07-19, 19:27

Oh yeah almost forgot about that

Spoiler for continuation:

Saerianne · 2009-07-19, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cola91

Oh yeah almost forgot about that

Spoiler for continuation:

And then this is where the whole real name debate thing comes in. I think this theory is right though.

Kitsu · 2009-07-19, 19:29

@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?

Slate · 2009-07-19, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?

"You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!"

Anything shown cannot be used as evidence.

Marion · 2009-07-19, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?

It is possible. Fact is Kanon was still bleeding. That was witnessed. And that red rule doesn't really apply to this part, because Battler himself saw Kanon bleeding and on the ground. Nothing in red can be trusted, but Battler is considered the trusted narrator. Everything not seen in his POV cannot be trusted, as it is Beato's narration. Plus this is EP 1, and at this point red text wasn't introduced.

Which means Kanon was at the very least attacked by someone. Not killed, but attacked at the very least.

Jan-Poo · 2009-07-19, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cola91

Oh yeah almost forgot about that

Spoiler for continuation:

That's one option, but there is another one: Kanon was killed, but not on Rokkenjima.

In both cases we have an incongruence with what is stated on episode2: "Kanon was killed inside Jessica's room".

I find this thing very strange, because seeing as how Kanon always dies from the same kind of wound, it would look like a rule or something, but the red truths on Episode1 completely defy this, even thought it is still said (but not in red) that Kanon died from the same kind of wound.

Kanon is like the schroedinger cat, he's both dead and alive.

EDIT: ah I forgot another one: Kanon was killed by an animal... err... it could only be a monkey realistically speaking... nah... even in that case a monkey wouldn't have a strong enough grip especially with that kind of weapon...

MeoTwister5 · 2009-07-19, 22:12

Personally the problem with no human could kill Kanon lies in three questions:

1. No human could kill Kanon ON THE ISLAND? It's quite probable that the statement could only refer to him not being killable on the island and only on the island.

2. It could also mean literally what it said, that Kanon is impervious to any human means. That would of course also mean that any means that are indirect but have the intention of a human killing him would also count. Therefore, he could only die by a means not intended by any human. That only limits it now to either accidental death (manslaughter) or a none-human cause. From an anti-magic POV of course.

3. But from an Anti-mystery POV... well it's pretty obvious now.

The most important thing at this point is if it's possible to say in red that Kanon was in fact alive but died. You can't kill someone who isn't alive, and there needs confirmation that Kanon is himself a living entity capable of dying, even if he can only die from non-human means.

Dream Illusionist · 2009-07-19, 23:50

Hey everyone! I'm rather new to these forums, but I've been reading these topics for the last couple of days, having become addicted to the Umineko series around a month ago. Anyways, I thought I'd bring to light some things I noticed and some theories I thought of after playing the game.

I don't think these have been addressed before, but if they have, I'm sorry. Probably skipped them in the midst of so many pages. XD; I focused on Episode 1 this time around. I'll type my other reasonings later on.

Spoiler for Episode 1 Theories/Reasoning:

Episode 1

First and foremost, something that you keep addressing lately is starting to bug me a bit. Namely, the fact that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. This is very pretty, and would easily discard the thoughts that the people on the shed had anything to do with this. However, knowing the Red's true nature, I went a step further and re-evaluated this statement, and finally came to a conclusion. While the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed, the identities of the 'identified' corpses are not. In other words, while we are certain that Gohda, Rudolf, Kyrie and Rosa are confirmed dead, Krauss and Shannon's identities are not. Yes, we've seen half their faces, but I don't deem it impossible that body-double tricks hadn't occured here - we can only confirm that no body-doubles occured for the prior four. And besides, I remember this scene being referred to as 'someone giving the victims a make-up'. Interpreting this dually, it can also mean that one of those two might be faking their condition. My attention focus to Shannon, who is the only one we don't truly see, and thus might not be there at all - it could all be a fabricated lie.

Next, and with Episode 5's OP, more focus is brought upon Maria's rose. I had already deemed its disappearance fishy, and the opening only came to confirm my doubts. Comparing this to Higurashi, where we have the three rules, we can also say that Maria's rose disappearing is pretty much a rule X for Umineko. In similar faction, we could say that Kinzo's condition at start of all games is rule Y. Those two are the factors that are completely unvariable. I remind you all that Gohda's dessert in Ep.1 was said to have a sauce made from rose petals, so perhaps he (or another one of the servants) was the one who picked it up? Nonetheless, its disappearance is strongly related to the events on Rokkenjima - it's vital. In what way is what still eludes me.

Somewhat touching this topic, we have Natsuhi's appearance in both this OP and the fifth episode's OP, where she is jeered by everyone. Like said before, this can be a hint - so I decided to do some research. For one, a special concoction made from roses and other ingredients can be considered a very potent hallucinogenic (Return to Hinamizawa, someone?). Reminding you that she awoke from a very deep and comforting sleep the next day (something she usually doesn't, if memory serves) could possibly hint at the fact that she under the concoction's effect - enraged by it and killing off the other five/six. Under this same condition, she could have fumbled with her own door, thus making the bloody prints on the door her own doing, from which she has no memory of. This could explain the reason why the bloody prints were there in an Anti-Fantasy aspect.

Altenatively to the rose sauce, we have Rosa (;P)'s black tea that she also brings for Natsuhi, claiming it's good for headaches. It's equally possible the tea had something in it that made her go insane.

Concerning the second twilight, there are several possibilities. I'd like to focus on one that doesn't incriminate neither Genji nor Kanon. When we're first described the scene, Genji tries to open the door, but is halted by the chain. When Kanon comes back to cut the chain, we're not told that the door is forcefully opened and clashing against the chain: instead, we're told that when Kanon tried to cut it, it proved easier than expected. In other words, it's perfectly viable that when Genji and Kanon came to visit the room, the culprit was still inside with the chain on. It's also equally possible that the culprit gained entrance because (s)he was known by both Eva and Hideyoshi. When Kanon came back with the wire cutter/pliers, however, the culprit had already left the room, drawn that unpleasant magic circle, and replaced the chain for something lighter, that could be opened easily with. Some sort of light wire, or... I dunno. It was then mistaken for the previous chain, thus creating a closed room.

Both Kanon's 'death' and Kinzo's death have been explained countless times before, so I won't dwell much on those. Just to add that while the confirmed-dead (Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Kinzo) and the people confirmed-alive (Natsuhi, Battler, Jessica, George, Maria, Nanjo, Genji) have their own alibis (that doesn't mean that they're unable to do the crime, just that they have a partner), Shannon and Krauss might not be dead, thus they're able to execute that crime. Alternatively, Kinzo is not confirmed dead or alive at that time, so he could have killed Kanon, then he's the one killed by a third person, since the alibi part doesn't count for his death. Or, as everyone else said, Kanon could have been left alive.

The following deaths can all be then explained with these possibly-dead people.

I hope my thoughts aren't too far-fetched... anyways, I'll hopefully post more here from now onwards.

luckyssol · 2009-07-20, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream Illusionist

Spoiler for Episode 1 Theories/Reasoning:

Spoiler for Shannon's face in the shed from the anime:

As I posted immediately after watching the third anime episode this was the only thing I found strange in the whole episode. Why are her tears fresh six hours after death? She's not dead.

Marion · 2009-07-20, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssol

Spoiler for Shannon's face in the shed from the anime:

As I posted immediately after watching the third anime episode this was the only thing I found strange in the whole episode. Why are her tears fresh six hours after death? She's not dead.

That's dramatic effect. There was nothing about tears in the VN - DEEN just did that on their own :U

Slate · 2009-07-20, 00:27

Spoiler for Chained Room:

luckyssol · 2009-07-20, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

That's dramatic effect. There was nothing about tears in the VN - DEEN just did that on their own :U

I doubt that. Given the fact she was hidden from view unlike the other corpses I will bet on her not being dead at that point.

2009-07-19, 18:34	Link #701
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I didn't remember that one, but there are other hints that Beatrice was originally "furniture". In ep3 Ronove says that sometimes furniture can become powerful enough to control demons. And soon after Beatrice hushed him. It is heavily hinted that he was referring to Beatrice. But what could that mean? Is Beatrice really furniture or is she a servant? __________________

2009-07-19, 18:41	Link #702
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	That furniture thing was shortly before the started to tell Beatirce her story(she didn#t say it exactly that way but she called her furniture that wouldn't make fun out of her or laugh about it) and I think Ronove said that furniture is capable of becoming a witch theirself or something. I would normally read those scnes again now but my Umineko Game died together with my hard disc today. Oh and would that servant thing fit after, if we believe Kumasawa=Virgillia Shannon said that Kumsawa was like a mother to all of the servants (childs) __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-07-19, 18:51	Link #703
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Yeah that's right he did say that. The only problem is the fact that at the start of episode3 Virgilia calls Beatrice "milady" and it is obvious that she is the granddaughter of the head of the family. But then again there might be several persons and things who are called Beatrice. __________________

2009-07-19, 18:56	Link #705
Cola91 Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Spoiler for Shannon isn't there theory: Or maybe Shannon, Hideyoshi, Kanon and Nanjo are all accomplices so they lied about seeing Shannon in the shed in order to hide the fact that she was still alive and ready to kill, however the real perpetrator later betrays Hideyoshi and Eva and has one of thos who work under him/her kill them (it was never stated in red that the chain was cut upon discovery of the murder so this is not really a closed room). Next is Kanon who was either killed by Shannon since everyone who we know for certain being alive at the moment has an alibi or ,assuming that Shannon=Kanon is true (maybe one of them is dead before the conference and the other is taking both roles), he used the stake to pierce his own chest however non causing a mortal wound (Nanjo later lied about him being dead). That leaves us with Shannon and/or Kanon able to commit the murders of Genji,Kumasawa,Nanjo and Natsuhi. Please prove me wrong if you can so that I can start thinking again XD

2009-07-19, 19:01	Link #706
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I can prove you wrong about Kanon's "crime": Spoiler for ep4 tea party: -All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! -In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! -Kanon did not commit suicide. -Kanon did not die in an accident. @Kitsu: Yeah the narrator of the scene at the start of ep3 just screams Jessica to me, but unless it is stated in red it can't be proved. __________________

2009-07-19, 19:02	Link #707
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	Jan-Poo beat me to it. Yes, it can't be proved...but Episode 2 also screams Jessica=Beato like almost any other episode xD __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-07-19, 19:23	Link #708
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Even if everyone had an alibi that prevented them from killing Kanon, there's nothing in red saying everyone had an alibi for attacking him. Someone was down in the boiler room, proven by Battler when they heard the other door opening or something.

2009-07-19, 19:27	Link #709
Cola91 Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Oh yeah almost forgot about that Spoiler for continuation: That's where the second option comes in... Since we know that no human could kill Kanon and also that Witches don't exist I think that it is quite safe to theorize that Kanon isn't dead. The rest is as explained before.

2009-07-19, 19:29	Link #711
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	@Marion What!? that's a proof? Let's reconstruct the scene -Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died -They hear Kumasawa scream -They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense -they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult -the tension rises -somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows -the tension is unbearable -Battler hears the door close Are you still sure there was someone? __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-07-19, 22:12	Link #715
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	Personally the problem with no human could kill Kanon lies in three questions: 1. No human could kill Kanon ON THE ISLAND? It's quite probable that the statement could only refer to him not being killable on the island and only on the island. 2. It could also mean literally what it said, that Kanon is impervious to any human means. That would of course also mean that any means that are indirect but have the intention of a human killing him would also count. Therefore, he could only die by a means not intended by any human. That only limits it now to either accidental death (manslaughter) or a none-human cause. From an anti-magic POV of course. 3. But from an Anti-mystery POV... well it's pretty obvious now. The most important thing at this point is if it's possible to say in red that Kanon was in fact alive but died. You can't kill someone who isn't alive, and there needs confirmation that Kanon is himself a living entity capable of dying, even if he can only die from non-human means. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-07-19, 23:50	Link #716
Dream Illusionist Junior Member Join Date: May 2009	Hey everyone! I'm rather new to these forums, but I've been reading these topics for the last couple of days, having become addicted to the Umineko series around a month ago. Anyways, I thought I'd bring to light some things I noticed and some theories I thought of after playing the game. I don't think these have been addressed before, but if they have, I'm sorry. Probably skipped them in the midst of so many pages. XD; I focused on Episode 1 this time around. I'll type my other reasonings later on. Spoiler for Episode 1 Theories/Reasoning: Episode 1 First and foremost, something that you keep addressing lately is starting to bug me a bit. Namely, the fact that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed. This is very pretty, and would easily discard the thoughts that the people on the shed had anything to do with this. However, knowing the Red's true nature, I went a step further and re-evaluated this statement, and finally came to a conclusion. While the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed, the identities of the 'identified' corpses are not. In other words, while we are certain that Gohda, Rudolf, Kyrie and Rosa are confirmed dead, Krauss and Shannon's identities are not. Yes, we've seen half their faces, but I don't deem it impossible that body-double tricks hadn't occured here - we can only confirm that no body-doubles occured for the prior four. And besides, I remember this scene being referred to as 'someone giving the victims a make-up'. Interpreting this dually, it can also mean that one of those two might be faking their condition. My attention focus to Shannon, who is the only one we don't truly see, and thus might not be there at all - it could all be a fabricated lie. Next, and with Episode 5's OP, more focus is brought upon Maria's rose. I had already deemed its disappearance fishy, and the opening only came to confirm my doubts. Comparing this to Higurashi, where we have the three rules, we can also say that Maria's rose disappearing is pretty much a rule X for Umineko. In similar faction, we could say that Kinzo's condition at start of all games is rule Y. Those two are the factors that are completely unvariable. I remind you all that Gohda's dessert in Ep.1 was said to have a sauce made from rose petals, so perhaps he (or another one of the servants) was the one who picked it up? Nonetheless, its disappearance is strongly related to the events on Rokkenjima - it's vital. In what way is what still eludes me. Somewhat touching this topic, we have Natsuhi's appearance in both this OP and the fifth episode's OP, where she is jeered by everyone. Like said before, this can be a hint - so I decided to do some research. For one, a special concoction made from roses and other ingredients can be considered a very potent hallucinogenic (Return to Hinamizawa, someone?). Reminding you that she awoke from a very deep and comforting sleep the next day (something she usually doesn't, if memory serves) could possibly hint at the fact that she under the concoction's effect - enraged by it and killing off the other five/six. Under this same condition, she could have fumbled with her own door, thus making the bloody prints on the door her own doing, from which she has no memory of. This could explain the reason why the bloody prints were there in an Anti-Fantasy aspect. Altenatively to the rose sauce, we have Rosa (;P)'s black tea that she also brings for Natsuhi, claiming it's good for headaches. It's equally possible the tea had something in it that made her go insane. Concerning the second twilight, there are several possibilities. I'd like to focus on one that doesn't incriminate neither Genji nor Kanon. When we're first described the scene, Genji tries to open the door, but is halted by the chain. When Kanon comes back to cut the chain, we're not told that the door is forcefully opened and clashing against the chain: instead, we're told that when Kanon tried to cut it, it proved easier than expected. In other words, it's perfectly viable that when Genji and Kanon came to visit the room, the culprit was still inside with the chain on. It's also equally possible that the culprit gained entrance because (s)he was known by both Eva and Hideyoshi. When Kanon came back with the wire cutter/pliers, however, the culprit had already left the room, drawn that unpleasant magic circle, and replaced the chain for something lighter, that could be opened easily with. Some sort of light wire, or... I dunno. It was then mistaken for the previous chain, thus creating a closed room. Both Kanon's 'death' and Kinzo's death have been explained countless times before, so I won't dwell much on those. Just to add that while the confirmed-dead (Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Kinzo) and the people confirmed-alive (Natsuhi, Battler, Jessica, George, Maria, Nanjo, Genji) have their own alibis (that doesn't mean that they're unable to do the crime, just that they have a partner), Shannon and Krauss might not be dead, thus they're able to execute that crime. Alternatively, Kinzo is not confirmed dead or alive at that time, so he could have killed Kanon, then he's the one killed by a third person, since the alibi part doesn't count for his death. Or, as everyone else said, Kanon could have been left alive. The following deaths can all be then explained with these possibly-dead people. I hope my thoughts aren't too far-fetched... anyways, I'll hopefully post more here from now onwards.

2009-07-20, 00:27	Link #719
Slate Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	Spoiler for Chained Room: The chain was ALREADY CUT when everyone except for some of the servants arrived at the scene. Since most of the characters didn't see the chain being cut, we have no idea when it was cut. The magic circle was also already there before everyone else arrived, so the same applies. So: Kanon, Kumasawa, and Genji broke the chain and used a Master Key to gain entrance. They also drew the Magic Circle on the door. Some time after killing Eva and Hideyoshi, Genji brought everyone to the room, saying that they had just found the corpses. Since the chain could have been broken and the door unlocked, this isn't a closed room.