News Stories

[Marcus H.]

You have a point there.

The media's not really helping and is adding more fuel to the fire.

On the same article, one guy did give a nice suggestion: when that priest does his stuff, don't watch. Leave him to burn that Quran to ashes.

[Nosauz]

If this guy can burn a bunch of korans, then the people who want to build a mosque/civic center 2 blocks away from ground zero can, freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Doesn't mean I can't call him a bigot/idiot which he is. Again in the United States you don't have the right to be not offended.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

For fuck's sake, someone please burn that pastor before his actions engulf the world in flames.

Not sure than burning this moron would calm the crowd.
But would they prefer to get their own bible-for-burning ?

[Ascaloth]

You know, every time I hear about the Internal Security Department in my country inviting people to "have coffee" and start getting angry about them clamping down on the speech of Singaporeans, I just need to look towards the US, and I always go "hmmm, I guess those ISD people aren't so bad after all. Things could certainly be worse without them around."

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

If this guy can burn a bunch of korans, then the people who want to build a mosque/civic center 2 blocks away from ground zero can, freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Doesn't mean I can't call him a bigot/idiot which he is. Again in the United States you don't have the right to be not offended.

That's what is quintessentially American... and why it scares the parts of the world where people want to dictate what you think, read, or say.

Not that Americans don't have their own "silence the different thinking" faction. Its just that we've got that pesky "rule of law via the Constitution" to trip them up.

And yes, this guy is a maroon... BUT he also exemplifies what is dangerous and wrong about religion. "My version of sky faeries is right and yours is wrong and I'm going to kill you until you see it my way" .... insert any aggressive religious sect of choice.

The proper response to extremist Islamic threats (or Christian threats or Jewish threats, etc) is basically "f*** you, I don't belong to your religion and stop trying to enforce it on me." That's what the proper American response should be to *any* such nonsense (be it the Christian Creationists, the Gush Emunim, Wahhabi, or whatever).

[MeoTwister5]

But the question is, does this man's planned action have the capacity to cause enough of a potential threat for more than just Americans to the point that it may be better for the greater good just to stop him?

Because at this point in global affairs you'd have to be living under a rock not to know consciously that stunts like this is going to piss someone off in some manner. It may be okay over on that side of the Pacific, but everything pisses someone off somewhere, especially things like this. America can't simply brush this off and tell other nations to fuck off and suck it up when you've gotten too many eyes judging you for blatant insensitivity. Again it may be fair game for the nation, but fair game isn't always fair when you have to play ball with the rest of the world.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

But the question is, does this man's planned action have the capacity to cause enough of a potential threat for more than just Americans to the point that it may be better for the greater good just to stop him?

Because at this point in global affairs you'd have to be living under a rock not to know consciously that stunts like this is going to piss someone off in some manner. It may be okay over on that side of the Pacific, but everything pisses someone off somewhere, especially things like this. America can't simply brush this off and tell other nations to fuck off and suck it up when you've gotten too many eyes judging you for blatant insensitivity. Again it may be fair game for the nation, but fair game isn't always fair when you have to play ball with the rest of the world.

Europe is having to deal with this head on (e.g. the Netherlands, etc). Do we kowtow to every zealot and their version of 'sky faeries' who demands you not offend them in any way? Talk about racing to the bottom of the pit of oppression.... :P

Yeah, its a balance. And this idiot in Florida is seeking attention (which the news media is bathing him in rather than covering "actually important stuff"). Basically, he's burning books (ala Catch-22, Tom Sawyer, and other books that have been burned) and should be made fun of and pelted with tomatoes. But I'd probably be hurling watermelons at anyone issuing death threats over it.

[justinstrife]

Why people are even giving this Pastor such attention is beyond me. He got exactly what he wanted, and the media, and the rest of the world gave it to him. If everyone just ignored him, he'd eventually go away.

The guy belongs to what, a 50 member church? Not exactly a huge denomination. He's desperate for attention and he's getting it apparently.

[bladeofdarkness]

it was inevitable

Iran: Zionists behind Koran-burning initiative
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...951979,00.html
Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki condemned a US church's initiative to burn Koran's on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks, claiming that "the Zionists are behind the move."

According to a report on Iran's official news agency, Mottaki warned that the "despicable initiative will draw Muslim reactions worldwide. He urged US authorities to prevent the burning of the books and safeguard the rights of American Muslims. (AFP)

[sa547]

The damn thing about this... it's comparable to be in the brink of nuclear war; escalation on both sides. :|

[flying ^]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Why people are even giving this Pastor such attention is beyond me. He got exactly what he wanted, and the media, and the rest of the world gave it to him. If everyone just ignored him, he'd eventually go away.

The guy belongs to what, a 50 member church? Not exactly a huge denomination. He's desperate for attention and he's getting it apparently.

These guys are taking a page out of Westboro Babptist church.
I won't be surprised if some of their members in that Florida church are as legal-savvy as WBC.

(edit) btw I think that Florida church might be breaking a state/local law and may get fined because they didn't get the permit from state or local authorities to burn trash outside (not implying that a holy book = trash)

[Vexx]

According to a report on Iran's official news agency, Mottaki warned that the "despicable initiative will draw Muslim reactions worldwide. He urged US authorities to prevent the burning of the books and safeguard the rights of American Muslims. (AFP)

Well.. that certainly underscores how some don't understand how "rights" work. If someone burns a copy of a book I hold dear and holy, I may be annoyed with them but my "rights" have in no way been violated.

These guys are taking a page out of Westboro Babptist church.
I won't be surprised if some of their members in that Florida church are as legal-savvy as WBC.

Yeah, and the nice thing about America's version of 'free speech' is that it makes it easier for the public to keep an eye on the clowns and morons.

[sa547]

Got it from Peter Payne's tweeter feed:

http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/09/09...rchs-web-site/

Now involved: Rackspace. Yes, the popular Web host has pulled the plug on the church’s Web site, citing a violation in its service’s “hate-speech provision of [its] acceptable-use policy.”

Owned!

[Vexx]

The comments under the Peter Payne article are hilarious....

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I wonder this doesn't happen when the Bible is concerned, though.

To be honest I've trying to find examples of this and have only come across two, both of which were condemned completely. Maybe there are examples of this occuring but if so my google-fu is proving inadequate.

[flying ^]

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...er=rss&emc=rss

[james0246]

^Please, in the future post an explanation of the link you are providing.

[Marcus H.]

OH, GUESS WHAT?

Pastor says Quran-burning suspended, not canceled
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/quran_burning

Spoiler for long text:

GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church says he was lied to and is rethinking his decision to cancel burning Qurans to mark 9/11.

Pastor Terry Jones earlier Thursday had backed off his threat to burn the Quran after he said he was promised that a planned Islamic center and mosque would be moved away from New York's ground zero. Muslim leaders denied there was such a deal.

Later outside his church he said that the imam he thought he made the deal with "clearly, clearly lied to us" about moving the mosque.

Jones and Imam Muhammad Musri stood side by side in a news conference where the pastor said he would cancel Saturday's event.

Musri later told The Associated Press there was only an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church backed off his threat to burn the Quran, defusing an international firestorm Thursday after he said he was promised that a planned Islamic center and mosque would be moved away from New York's ground zero. The imam planning the center, however, quickly denied such a deal.

The Rev. Terry Jones had been under intense pressure to abandon his plan to burn the Quran on Saturday, the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. President Barack Obama urged him to listen to "those better angels" and give up his "stunt," saying it would endanger U.S. troops and give Islamic terrorists a recruiting tool. Defense Secretary Robert Gates took the extraordinary step of calling Jones personally.

Standing outside his 50-member Pentecostal church, the Dove Outreach Center, alongside Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida, Jones said he relented when Musri assured him that the New York mosque will be moved.

Jones had never invoked the mosque controversy as a reason for his planned protest. He cited his belief that the Quran is evil because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

But he said Thursday that that he prayed about the decision and concluded that if the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.

"We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said. "We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it."

Musri thanked Jones and his church members "for making the decision today to defuse the situation and bring to a positive end what has become the world over a spectacle that no one would benefit from except extremists and terrorists" who would use it to recruit future radicals.

After the news conference, however, Musri told The Associated Press there is no deal to move the mosque. He said there was only an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero.

"I told the pastor that I personally believe the mosque should not be there, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it is moved," Musri said. "But there is not any offer from there (New York) that it will be moved. All we have agreed to is a meeting, and I think we would all like to see a peaceful resolution."

In New York, the leader of the Islamic center project, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, said he was surprised by Jones' announcement.

"I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Qurans. However, I have not spoken to Pastor Jones or Imam Musri," Rauf said in a statement. "We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we going to barter. We are here to extend our hands to build peace and harmony."

Jones later insisted that he had struck a deal, without suggesting that he would go back to his Quran-burning plan in light of the imams' denials. He said Musri told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.

"We are canceling the event because we have agreed, I take him at his word, he has agreed to move the Ground Zero mosque," Jones said. "I verified that three or four times with witnesses. I trust that man who gave me that. I believe he is a man of integrity, a man of his word, I do not believe that he lied to me."

Jones said that if the mosque is not moved, "then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that."

His decision was made after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. The pope and several other Christian leaders were among those urging him to reconsider his plans, which generated a wave of anger across the Muslim world. In Afghanistan, hundreds of Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.

Obama told ABC's "Good Morning America" in an interview aired Thursday that Jones' plan "is completely contrary to our values as Americans."

"And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform," Obama said.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell confirmed that Gates called Jones about 4 p.m. EST Thursday — shortly before the pastor's announcement. During the "very brief" call, Gates expressed "his grave concern that going forward with this Quran burning would put the lives of our forces at risk, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan," Morrell said.

Morrell said earlier that the decision to issue a personal appeal was not easy because it could provoke other extremists "who, all they want, is a call from so-and-so." After Gates' call to Jones, Morrell said the secretary's "fundamental baseline attitude about this is that if that phone call could save the life of one man or woman in uniform it was a call worth placing."

The cancellation was welcomed in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city had mobilized to plan inclusive events, including Quran readings at services, as a counterpoint to Jones' protest.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

The pastor was not the only person to inject confusion into the debate over the New York mosque, which is planned to go up two blocks north of the trade center site. Donald Trump, who made a fortune in real estate, offered Thursday to buy out a major investor in the real estate partnership that controls the site where the 13-story Islamic center would be built.

Opponents argue it is insensitive to families and memories of Sept. 11 victims to build a mosque so close to where Islamic extremists flew planes into the World Trade Center and killed nearly 2,800 people. Proponents support the project as a reflection of religious freedom and diversity and say hatred of Muslims is fueling the opposition.

In a letter released Thursday by Trump's publicist, Trump told Hisham Elzanaty that he would buy his stake in one of the two lower Manhattan buildings involved in the project for 25 percent more than whatever he paid — if the mosque is moved at least five blocks farther away from the trade center site.

"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," the letter said.

Elzanaty's response: No sale.

"This is just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight," said his lawyer, Wolodymyr Starosolsky.

He added that the offer's lack of seriousness is evident in the price.

The group collectively paid $4.8 million for the building Trump offered to buy. The other is being leased.

Starosolsky said the real estate partnership had already received two offers in the ballpark of $20 million.

"He knows what the value of the building is. If he were really interested in buying the building, he would have come forward with at least $20 million," Starosolsky said.

Starosolsky added that Elzanaty remains committed to the idea of having a mosque built on at least part of the property.

It's unclear how much control Elzanaty has over the property, which is owned by an eight-member investment group led by El-Gamal's real estate company, Soho Properties.

El-Gamal said Soho Properties controls the site, but didn't elaborate. His spokesman said he couldn't answer questions about the investment team or ownership issues.

In a pair of interviews with the AP this week, Elzanaty said he had invested in the site with an intention of making a profit and was willing to half the land for private development, and maybe all of it if a Muslim group doesn't come forward with enough money to build the mosque.

[Autumn Demon]

Suppose the Quran burning does get canceled, would it be a victory for tolerance or a defeat for free speech?

The Christian pastor is an idiot for believing Islam causes more harm than any other religion. But it's troubling that an active military general would ask a citizen not to burn a book in a country where freedom of speech and religion are supposed to be a sacred rights. And I'd be willing to bet more Bibles have been burnt by atheists in America than Qurans by Christians. (Whenever missionaries showed up at my high school many of the Bibles they handed out would end up in the trash.)

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

You know, every time I hear about the Internal Security Department in my country inviting people to "have coffee" and start getting angry about them clamping down on the speech of Singaporeans, I just need to look towards the US, and I always go "hmmm, I guess those ISD people aren't so bad after all. Things could certainly be worse without them around."

They aren't that bad. It is called a "greater good for everyone" thing. The only documented torture method is that they splash victims with cold water and put them in an office room with the air-con at full blast.

The last one incident about religion was a pastor putting down other religious leaders in a podcast. The ISD didn't do anything at first until those people at STOMP and sgcafe/sgforums started making noise (and someone specifically called for the ISD to lock that pastor up). The ISD called him in for questioning and forced him to denounce his actions.

I don't think Singaporeans are ready for the responsibility of freedom of speech. Remember the IMF protest 4 years ago? The government nicely set up barricades for the people and nobody turned up.

On the contrary, I think that most Singaporeans are a bunch of closet otaku salarymen who only care if their anime/manga/soccer is being capped by the media distribution organisations - see the Odex figurine protest in 2008 and the red-card protest earlier this year for details.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

OH, GUESS WHAT?

Pastor says Quran-burning suspended, not canceled
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/quran_burning

<snip>

+1 for Trump. Although profit motive is in his mind (buying that piece of land would be a huge profit because of the media attention it receives for resale later on), buying up that land deters a mosque from being built on it for the time being, certainly a good move for "out of sight, out of mind" and quelling tensions.

Better for it to remain empty than something built to heckle everyone.

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

Suppose the Quran burning does get canceled, would it be a victory for tolerance or a defeat for free speech?

That is taking the freedom of speech into the wrong concept. Remember that whatever information that comes out of the mouth HAS to go through the cerebal cortex FIRST, thus one is free to say anything as long as it passes through the brain. The pastor never thought of the other religious leaders and their specific communities, so that isn't exactly the freedom of speech in the First Amendment, where it prohibits the making of any law 'respecting an establishment of religion', impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Hence the saying :

People often cry out for the freedom of speech when the freedom of thought is seldom used.