[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If Shannon and Kanon are always faking their deaths, 90% of the closed rooms are outright easy to solve. Of course, that solution may not be the correct one, but it is a possible solution.

Actually, no. This is true if there are two of them, perhaps, but not necessarily true of even most of the closed rooms if there is only one. If anything, the "key" you'd derive out of ep6 is the necessity of being helped, but that would flatly contradict Shkanon (unless of course she has a dedicated accomplice), as it requires more people rather than less. There are also a few instances in which the closed room is quite easy to construct through standard methods like dying after locking a door, etc.

There's also the problem that a lot of the closed rooms are not necessarily even closed rooms at all, so it isn't strictly necessary that any culprit be involved because the rooms are "closed" mostly because Battler believes they're closed rooms.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually, no. This is true if there are two of them, perhaps, but not necessarily true of even most of the closed rooms if there is only one.

Well, EP3 and EP4 are very easy with Shkanon, since there's always a piece free after the first twilight. EP2 is similarly easy, since Shkanon had the obvious opportunity to kill Jessica before regrouping with the rest. Then, she just stays Shannon until she gets George and Gohda into Natsuhi's room, mortally wounds Gohda then goes outside, so that he locks the door from the inside in self-defense, and then she finds where Kumasawa and Nanjo have been hiding (or killed by the second culprit). First twilight is trickier, but it's possible to make a theory where anyone could have done that one.

EP1, the first twilight is trivial for her. Once that's done, she only has the play the part of one person. Second twilight could have been done by Kanon if he used Erika's trick of re-taping the chain (you should be able to apply that tape equally well outside the door as inside it), or with one of several other theories already discussed. He could easily have staked Kinzo's corpse and then faked his own wound by putting blood on himself (the stake was just lying beside him for that one). He then convinces Jessica and Nanjo to let him move about unrestrained to catch the culprit. Jessica would trust him. After that, he's free to kill everyone else.

Pretty sure this covers all of the murders, which isn't all of the mysteries, reasonably well for something I just pieced together. Not supposed to be a "the answer", just some possible answers.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, EP3 and EP4 are very easy with Shkanon, since there's always a piece free after the first twilight.

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Second twilight could have been done by Kanon if he used Erika's trick of re-taping the chain (you should be able to apply that tape equally well outside the door as inside it), or with one of several other theories already discussed.

You know what the easiest solution is though? Somebody's still in the room.

Pretty sure this covers all of the murders, which isn't all of the mysteries, reasonably well for something I just pieced together. Not supposed to be a "the answer", just some possible answers.

Explaining the murders is much easier than explaining the closed rooms. Mostly. The thing is most of the closed rooms aren't even closed, so why we need a key to them to begin with is pretty presumptuous on ryukishi's part. Unless the "key" is that there are no closed rooms.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

In EP3, the first twilight can be even easier than the version I posed earlier if Shkanon uses a fake corpse for Shannon and just hides in the chapel as Kanon, or vice versa. No one is totally fooled by the corpses, so there's no realism problem, and Shkanon would never have to move. That's the easy solution, but I don't like it since it doesn't really explain why she did this whole big setup in the first place.

All the murders in the mansion and rose garden are utterly trivial, since someone outside the guesthouse could have found and killed them easily. The only tricky one is killing Natsuhi and Krauss, and even that could be done if Beatrice snuck in the window at the same time George snuck out.

I don't think this is what happened at all, but it does work, and doesn't require anything complicated to do that.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

If anything, the "key" you'd derive out of ep6 is the necessity of being helped

That doesn't make sense to me. Battler was helped by Kanon, okay. But who the hell helped Kanon?

Whatever is the solution what is evident is that if Kanon has been the one who needed to escape from the very beginning he would have done that without any help.


Isn't the antishkanon faction claiming that Kanon "magically vanished" by dying? You don't need someone's help to do that, you can just kill yourself.

But I have the feeling you don't really think this is the right solution.
Well What I think is that Kanon knows some kind of strange trick, and he does because he's Beatrice. There's probably some strange trick that Beatrice knows.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In EP3, the first twilight can be even easier than the version I posed earlier if Shkanon uses a fake corpse for Shannon and just hides in the chapel as Kanon, or vice versa. No one is totally fooled by the corpses, so there's no realism problem, and Shkanon would never have to move. That's the easy solution, but I don't like it since it doesn't really explain why she did this whole big setup in the first place.

The easy solution is that she's dead, damn it, just like the red says.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In EP3, the first twilight can be even easier than the version I posed earlier if Shkanon uses a fake corpse for Shannon and just hides in the chapel as Kanon, or vice versa. No one is totally fooled by the corpses, so there's no realism problem, and Shkanon would never have to move. That's the easy solution, but I don't like it since it doesn't really explain why she did this whole big setup in the first place.

And clearly Episode 6 doesn't at all say that it's possible that Shkanon only used one closed room or you'd use that trick instead of making it more complicated with 6 rooms. In other words 5 bodies are dead all 6 people are dead.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well What I think is that Kanon knows some kind of strange trick, and he does because he's Beatrice. There's probably some strange trick that Beatrice knows.

Wait, you have a theory about Kanon = Beato that isn't Shkanontrice?
Kanontrice I guess? I think I just haven't seen it before. Do you have links to it?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Wait, you have a theory about Kanon = Beato that isn't Shkanontrice?
Kanontrice I guess? I think I just haven't seen it before. Do you have links to it?

There isn't a complete theory based on it, but I can list some of the conversations/scenes people take as hints if you want.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

There isn't a complete theory based on it, but I can list some of the conversations/scenes people take as hints if you want.

Yes, please, it'd be nice. I don't really expect anyone to have a complete theory that can really explain everything yet anyway. Tho some are far closer to it...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Yes, please, it'd be nice. I don't really expect anyone to have a complete theory that can really explain everything yet anyway. Tho some are far closer to it...

Well most of them are in episode 1 and 2, but that might be a good thing.

The first one is in the scene called "Occult" in episode 1 where Battler talks to the servants and Maria in the Kitchen. He asks if Kinzo's confidante Beatrice is on the island now and Kanon responds with

......Yes I beleive that she is here

Then a little later in the scene where he gets the impression that they're saying Beatrice is in the room behind him after the stuff about "Beatrice Exists, Beatrice exists, Beatrice has already arrived" you can take their silence later as "Beatrice is right in front of you idiot"

Another one is the scene in episode 2 after Rosa crushes Maria's candy. Well the first point of that is that it shows Kanon had a chance to be there in the rose garden anyway. The second point is that the narration says Kanon "had a similar candy in his pocket". So he could've done a magic trick there too.

There's also the idea that Kanon could be behind burning Kinzo's body, which there are no outright statements for (well for anyone really), but in episode 4 we're shown dress Beatrice burning him up so there is something there.

There's also Battler's Joke about liking black haired, flat chested, lolis. I think that's what started it for many

Other than that Battler saying he wanted to get revenge in the Meta world for Kanon in episode 3 for his death in episode 2 shows that he cares a lot for Kanon for some reason, but that might just be kind of like a relationship between a Sophomore and a Senior.

[Moogleking]

Kanon is definitely involved. There's the fact that Kanon can be placed at pretty much any murder without problems and almost never has an alibi. He's also shown to come back to life after dying at least twice if you take the magic scenes as hints as to what really happened.

It is hard to place him as Beatrice alone, though, because he only shows up roughly 2 or 3 years ago, supposedly and Battler had never seen him before.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well most of them are in episode 1 and 2, but that might be a good thing.

The first one is in the scene called "Occult" in episode 1 where Battler talks to the servants and Maria in the Kitchen. He asks if Kinzo's confidante Beatrice is on the island now and Kanon responds with



Then a little later in the scene where he gets the impression that they're saying Beatrice is in the room behind him after the stuff about "beatrice Exists, Beatrice exists, Beatrice has already arrived" you can take their silence later as "Beatrice is right in front of you idiot"

Another one is the scene in episode 2 after Rosa crushes Maria's candy. Well the first point of that is that it shows Kanon had a chance to be there in the rose garden anyway. The second point is that the narration says Kanon "had a similar candy in his pocket". So he could've done a magic trick there too.

There's also the idea that Kanon could be behind burning Kinzo's body, which there are no outright statements for, but in episode 4 we're shown dress Beatrice burning him up so there is something there.

There's also Battler's Joke about liking black haired, flat chested, lolis. I think that's what started it for many

Ahaha, I always thought that was a precursor to Bern's turn.
Well, I'm not sure the idea about burning Kinzo means anything. The part about the candy is hard to see otherwise I think. Kanon did seem to feel pretty bad about how Rosa treated Maria and tried to give his candy to her first I think?

Something interesting tho, of course it's a fantasy scene, but isn't it sorta weird that at first Maria seemingly couldn't tell that Eva-Beato wasn't the real Beatrice in arc 3?

Of course I guess any argument for Kanon = Beatrice, or Shannon = Beatrice, also works for Shkanon = Beatrice.

[Judoh]

Well if Maria is part of something like the Marriage Sorciere she might be aware that Beatrice is a title.

Other than title's though there's always Doubletrice to explain the two different Beato's Suit and dress. That one started sometime between episode 6 came out and when it was translated. It was an attempt at explaining Beato's meta self and her personality that evolved into a theory about two different Beatrice's that are involved. That one actually doesn't have much hints it's just an idea based on there being two different Beato's. (most of them involve Shannon and Jessica though) and there's tripletrice if you want to include the Black witch too.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Other than title's though there's always Doubletrice to explain the two different Beato's Suit and dress. That one started sometime between episode 6 came out and when it was translated. It was an attempt at explaining Beato's meta self and her personality that evolved into a theory about two different Beatrice's that are involved. That one actually doesn't have much hints it's just an idea based on there being two different Beato's. (most of them involve Shannon and Jessica though) and there's tripletrice if you want to include the Black witch too.

I made an Everybodytrice theory.. and then a Sheverybodytrice theory too but no one paid any attention to me. ;__;


Actually, I'm wondering if it is really something special about Kanon. He kinda rebelled against Beatrice... or perhaps 'the plan' about Beatrice. But, what if he's merely doing something that everyone else is capable of? It's just that he's special because he's going *against* the plan instead of with it...

[Pika_power]

Can a happy end ever be reached in Umineko? From the end of EP6, it sounded like it was inevitable that everyone died. It's been there throughout the series. Battler isn't trying to save his family, he's merely debating the means in which everyone died. Even if he reaches the truth, he can't "Come home" to Ange. This becomes more and more obvious as time goes on. The nature of Rokkenjima is that the events on it are a black box. Everyone entered the box, and until then, no one can alter what happens. As soon as they're in the box, an infinite number of possibilities appear. No observer can say what occurs in any of those threads of possibility. Yet by the nature of the box, all threads end when the box does, and the box only encompasses the 4th, the 5th and possibly the 6th. After that, in the outside of the box, Eva escapes, and no one comes home to Ange. This isn't Higurashi, where there's a deity to rewind time to help. Everything complies to reality. The bomb goes off, and everyone dies.

The game was created to beat Bernkastel, the witch of miracles. Even she's forced to admit it: At best, one person can be brought back. She's not strictly LYING. One person can be brought back. One person WAS brought back. Eva was brought back, and that's all.

Ryukishi said he wanted a bittersweet ending to this series, but this is just plain bitter. The best we can hope for is that Ange will find peace with herse- Woops, looks like she was killed on Rokkenjima 1998.

The best we can hope for is that Battler and Beato will be happy in the Meta world.

Someone please tell me I'm interpreting this wrongly.

[Judoh]

Discussion here

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...66#post3163566

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The best we can hope for is that Ange will find peace with herse- Woops, looks like she was killed on Rokkenjima 1998.

FYI there are still a lot of people who don't beleive this happened. Well me I don't have an opinion on it, but we don't know that Amakusa really killed her and the end rolls aren't necessarily true all the time. Best evidence for that is Kinzo's status in them.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Discussion here

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...66#post3163566



FYI there are still people who don't beleive this happened. Well me I don't have an opinion on it, but we don't know that Amakusa really killed her and the end rolls aren't necessarily true all the time. Best evidence for that is Kinzo's status in them.

True. Having Ange survive would definitely make it a happier ending, but if the most positive thing we can say about the ending is that 1/19th of the main cast doesn't die a horrible death, it'll be extremely high on the 'bitter', and rather low on the 'sweet'.

Also, with Ryukishi's track record, it's unlikely that the main branch of the Sumadera family is going to get any retribution what-so-ever.

Then again, It's possible everyone is just hiding, and playing a big prank on Eva and Ange. And all their companies. Or they're running away to start a new life. Maria's jawbone was just a well made copy. No other bodies were found.

Actually, that's a serious theory. Hachijou is the letter writer of Rokkenjima, 12 years later. That's how she knows what the truth is.

[UsagiTenpura]

Spoiler for Size:

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Can a happy end ever be reached in Umineko? From the end of EP6, it sounded like it was inevitable that everyone died. It's been there throughout the series. Battler isn't trying to save his family, he's merely debating the means in which everyone died. Even if he reaches the truth, he can't "Come home" to Ange. This becomes more and more obvious as time goes on. The nature of Rokkenjima is that the events on it are a black box. Everyone entered the box, and until then, no one can alter what happens. As soon as they're in the box, an infinite number of possibilities appear. No observer can say what occurs in any of those threads of possibility. Yet by the nature of the box, all threads end when the box does, and the box only encompasses the 4th, the 5th and possibly the 6th. After that, in the outside of the box, Eva escapes, and no one comes home to Ange. This isn't Higurashi, where there's a deity to rewind time to help. Everything complies to reality. The bomb goes off, and everyone dies.

Possibly this is true, and there's no ways to deny it. I sorta believe actually that Bernkastel will tell us this is the truth in arc 7 (after all she'd be quite happy about that). However there is no proof of when is the present. I believe it would seemingly make the whole point of miracles and one on a quadrllion chance pretty meaningless if everyone was already dead, plus it's a sort of ending that in itself is a bit cheap. I do have points against it.

Mentions how the vessel is needed to ressurect of whatever when referring to Sakutarou suggest that everyone is alive.
The love trial thing sorta felt as if normally uninvited players joined the game temporarily. Hinting these players are possibly still alive.
If we're to assume the arcs are tales, then the present could be very well the moment they were thrown into the ocean or something like that. Basically the message bottles were written obviously before everyone died and let's say you would've found it 10 mins later you could've read "arc 1" before anything occured on Rokkenjima. Arguably the same could be said if let's say Battler-prime wandered in the mansion and found Beato's scripts. He could've read all arcs before anything occured.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

The game was created to beat Bernkastel, the witch of miracles. Even she's forced to admit it: At best, one person can be brought back. She's not strictly LYING. One person can be brought back. One person WAS brought back. Eva was brought back, and that's all.

The thing is that she is lying to some extent, because she'd much rather see everyone dead then save anyone. The fact is that the story is gradually heading toward beating Bernkastel herself, it wouldn't be too surprising if the story ended in a good way just to basically piss her off.

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Ryukishi said he wanted a bittersweet ending to this series, but this is just plain bitter. The best we can hope for is that Ange will find peace with herse- Woops, looks like she was killed on Rokkenjima 1998.

The best we can hope for is that Battler and Beato will be happy in the Meta world.

Someone please tell me I'm interpreting this wrongly.

I believe after George's speech concerning the golden land and how happiness had only meaning because you could find it during life rules out Ryukishi trying to make us swallow that a dead meta-Battler could somehow find happiness in a world that isn't reality.

Concerning Ange, it's sorta different, but I've been thinking for a bit now... Suppose she was to be shot by Amasuka, but he didn't do so. He claimed he did to Okonogi, then they change identity to fake ones and try to escape. Why am I even suggesting something that crazy?
Because it would explain why Ange died when she revealed her name.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The love trial thing sorta felt as if normally uninvited players joined the game temporarily. Hinting these players are possibly still alive.

Which players are we talking about? George/Jessica/Kanon/Shannon, or Zephar and Furfur?

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

If we're to assume the arcs are tales, then the present could be very well the moment they were thrown into the ocean or something like that. Basically the message bottles were written obviously before everyone died and let's say you would've found it 10 mins later you could've read "arc 1" before anything occured on Rokkenjima. Arguably the same could be said if let's say Battler-prime wandered in the mansion and found Beato's scripts. He could've read all arcs before anything occurred.

Doesn't the EP1 endroll, and scenes from EP4 and EP6 disprove this? After all, only the first two arc bottles were found. The rest were written by Hachijou. Unless you're suggesting that even the 1998 scenes are written by Beato, and all of Umineko is just a script in Beato's study.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The thing is that she is lying to some extent, because she'd much rather see everyone dead then save anyone. The fact is that the story is gradually heading toward beating Bernkastel herself, it wouldn't be too surprising if the story ended in a good way just to basically piss her off.

If there is a happy ending, I think this point is the strongest. Bern is being set up to lose.

Then again, I'd say Bern losing would be the true truth of Rokkenjima being exposed. Although how that would work in conjunction with author theory is too difficult to theorise.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I believe after George's speech concerning the golden land and how happiness had only meaning because you could find it during life rules out Ryukishi trying to make us swallow that a dead meta-Battler could somehow find happiness in a world that isn't reality.

The Meta is real. Or rather, it's not denied. In the same way that Battler and Lambda 'exist', Beato and Battler 'exist'. They could remain in their fragment, avoiding boredom forever. Or Beato could gain the power of creator, as is being discussed in the other thread. That could mean a happy end via magic, I guess.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Concerning Ange, it's sorta different, but I've been thinking for a bit now... Suppose she was to be shot by Amasuka, but he didn't do so. He claimed he did to Okonogi, then they change identity to fake ones and try to escape. Why am I even suggesting something that crazy?
Because it would explain why Ange died when she revealed her name.

She wasn't strictly to be shot by him. Ideally the henchmen would shoot her. But I get what you're saying, and I like that theory.