Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Isegrim

No need to get harsh, my friend. Without further information, my first idea referred to the speech in the stadium.
Anyway, comparing Lelouch and Adolf Hitler ist just disgusting. I can't see any use in a further discussion of this topic.

Okay, Light Yagami then, is that any better, geez

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Isegrim

No need to get harsh, my friend. Without further information, my first idea referred to the speech in the stadium.
Anyway, comparing Lelouch and Adolf Hitler ist just disgusting. I can't see any use in a further discussion of this topic.

Well, using Hitler may be extreme... Can't deny it though, he does have many cases of being an evil dictator. Luckily that is mostly gone from the new season (and it actually makes me like him because of it.)

Now, Suzaku doesn't just 'follow orders' blindly. He never really does. He was ordered to kill the JLF who wanted to surrender, never fired a shot. He was being pressured to kill the 1 million Zeros... never broke under the pressure. Was ordered to shoot Lelouch in the first episode. Never did. I can list other examples, but that should suffice I guess.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well, using Hitler may be extreme... Can't deny it though, he does have many cases of being an evil dictator. Luckily that is mostly gone from the new season (and it actually makes me like him because of it.)

Now, Suzaku doesn't just 'follow orders' blindly. He never really does. He was ordered to kill the JLF who wanted to surrender, never fired a shot. He was being pressured to kill the 1 million Zeros... never broke under the pressure. Was ordered to shoot Lelouch in the first episode. Never did. I can list other examples, but that should suffice I guess.

Exactly, so why would he kill Nunnally even if it was an order from the Emperor, it doesn't make any sense, what he did to Lelouch was in retrospect payback for killing Euphie but everyone believes he was sold out to the Emperor for nothing. Suzaku isn't a military dog who will take orders if it went against his believes.

[Sol Falling]

:P You guys are pretty funny.

As much as I consider Suzaku and Lelouch equals, I must admit I've got a bit of a bias towards Suzaku. Now that I think about it, there's a reason why.

While both Lelouch and Suzaku stand for change, Lelouch prefers the creation of a new reality while Suzaku pursues a conversion of the current one. This is old news, and has remained valid through both seasons thus far. However, from the beginning, both Lelouch and Suzaku were held back by a fatal flaw.

Quickly in succession: Lelouch's was in his justification, in that he presumed to fight for others' sake without ascertaining their true desires; Suzaku's was in his true intention, in that he preferred death to confronting a reality that he created. Both of these issues cast doubts on their actions such that it would be difficult to consider them legitimate. Both of these issues have also been resolved.

The difference, then, is in the timing. While Suzaku's weakness was only revealed in episode 16, Lelouch's blunder was apparent from the start. In a similar manner, Suzaku was forced to overcome his issue through episodes 18-20, while Lelouch has only confronted his flaw this season, in Turn 07. So the basis behind my bias is that basically, the amount of time I've spent doubting Lelouch (Stage 03 to Turn 07, 29 episodes) has been about 7 times longer than I've spent doubting Suzaku (Stage 16 to Stage 20). Naturally, I've subconciously got some feelings that Suzaku is more trustworthy than Lelouch.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I've spent doubting Lelouch (Stage 03 to Turn 07, 29 episodes) has been about 7 times longer than I've spent doubting Suzaku (Stage 16 to Stage 20). Naturally, I've subconciously got some feelings that Suzaku is more trustworthy than Lelouch.

Well good for you, I wish you and Lelouch all the best of luck moving on

[Sol Falling]

Well you seem pretty cranky. Don't misunderstand, I was calling the Hitler discussion pretty funny, I wasn't trying to be insulting.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

Well good for you, I wish you and Lelouch all the best of luck moving on

Wait, unless I read his post wrong, he is defending Suzaku and I think did a good job doing it. So why are you cranky?

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Wait, unless I read his post wrong, he is defending Suzaku and I think did a good job doing it. So why are you cranky?

I think he is cranky because Sol said that the Hitler discussion was funny

[Var]

Originally Posted by Airi

I think he is cranky because Sol said that the Hitler discussion was funny

Most Hitler discussions are funny because they are used completely incorrectly, they are funny in just how ignorant and stupid they can be.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Var

Most Hitler discussions are funny because they are used completely incorrectly, they are funny in just how ignorant and stupid they can be.

Sounds like not exactly or same meaning as

[Captain Zechs]

I can honestly say that I cannot stand Suzaku.

I dislike the fact that he believes himself to be always right in the regards that he will chance society from within. Well, he is in now, for the most part, and what exactly, has changed? There is simply just more war, and more territory being fought over, the difference now is that he is helping to sieze said territory.

I also cannot stand the fact that he sold Lelouch to the emperor, I mean, of all the things he could have done, that was a ridiculously low blow.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Captain Zechs

I also cannot stand the fact that he sold Lelouch to the emperor, I mean, of all the things he could have done, that was a ridiculously low blow.

That part of Suzaku is actually quite easy to understand; For Suzaku, Zero is a villain character, thus Zero is "allowed" to be exempt from rules of morality.

In effect, "It is okay to do horrible things to those you don't consider people".

The same kind of thinking permitted mass firebombing of civilian cities in WW2. The cities belonged to the enemy, but had no strategic value. Yet they were firebombed to lower enemy moral and because "they burn well". The civilians who were burned to death are "not really people", so it was supposedly okay to roast them.
(They could get way with such things back then because the Media would never report such things in that day and age.)

[Captain Zechs]

Oh, I understand why he did it perfectly, but that doesn't mean I have to like the fact that he did it.

I just feel as if his character is slipping, he boasts of these great morals, and yet he feeds off of the Emperor, someone who thinks morals are for the weak.

It just irritates me.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That part of Suzaku is actually quite easy to understand; For Suzaku, Zero is a villain character, thus Zero is "allowed" to be exempt from rules of morality.

In effect, "It is okay to do horrible things to those you don't consider people".

The same kind of thinking permitted mass firebombing of civilian cities in WW2. The cities belonged to the enemy, but had no strategic value. Yet they were firebombed to lower enemy moral and because "they burn well". The civilians who were burned to death are "not really people", so it was supposedly okay to roast them.
(They could get way with such things back then because the Media would never report such things in that day and age.)

Hence, the A-bomb debate never became an issue for me. The fire-bombs did way more damage.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Captain Zechs

I can honestly say that I cannot stand Suzaku.

I dislike the fact that he believes himself to be always right in the regards that he will chance society from within. Well, he is in now, for the most part, and what exactly, has changed? There is simply just more war, and more territory being fought over, the difference now is that he is helping to sieze said territory.

I see people complaining that Suzaku hasn't changed anything quite often, which I find kind of odd. You do realize to change something from within takes time? Suzaku has to work his way in to a position of power, if changing things from the inside could produce results within a year (I believe it's been a year since his first deployment) then someone else would have already done it.

And IIRC Schneizel mentioned that he'd come to a peace treaty with EU, so what exactly is wrong with helping bring an end to a conflict?

I also cannot stand the fact that he sold Lelouch to the emperor, I mean, of all the things he could have done, that was a ridiculously low blow.

Suzaku believes he was betrayed first, and its not like Lelouch did anything to make him believe otherwise. Infact Lelouch hurts his own cause by trying to pass it off as 'in the past,' comparing it to Suzaku killing his own father. Suzaku could have killed Lelouch, but instead he decided to make better use of him and trade him in for a promotion.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Eagles

I see people complaining that Suzaku hasn't changed anything quite often, which I find kind of odd. You do realize to change something from within takes time. Suzaku has to work his way in to a position of power, if changing things from the inside could produce results within a year (I believe it's been a year since his first deployment) then someone else would have already done it.

And IIRC Schneizel mentioned that he'd come to a peace treaty with EU, so what exactly is wrong with helping bring an end to a conflict?

Suzaku believes he was betrayed first, and its not like Lelouch did anything to make him believe otherwise. Infact Lelouch hurts his own cause by trying to pass it off as 'in the past,' comparing it to Suzaku killing his own father. Suzaku could have killed Lelouch, but instead he decided to make better use of him and trade him in for a promotion.

Let's not forget the bomb he had on himself at the end of S1.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Hence, the A-bomb debate never became an issue for me. The fire-bombs did way more damage.

But the use of the a-bomb isn't really debated back then when it was used, because that was in the era of media control. The Vietnam war brought the mass killing and suffering of civilians to TVs of people everywhere. There wasn't anything unusual about the tactics used in Vietnam compared to other wars; it's just that for the first time, people got to see it.

[Captain Zechs]

Yeah, the bomb to me was a bit of a low for Lelouch, I thought it made him look bad because Kallen was right there, he pretty much blatantly said he'd blow her up just to get his point across.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But the use of the a-bomb isn't really debated back then when it was used, because that was in the era of media control. The Vietnam war brought the mass killing and suffering of civilians to TVs of people everywhere. There wasn't anything unusual about the tactics used in Vietnam compared to other wars; it's just that for the first time, people got to see it.

The first war on TV, ah yes.

Nothing unusual? Well, I would consider the "new" technology of Agent Orange and napalm as unusual.

[canis]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

The first war on TV, ah yes.

Nothing unusual? Well, I would consider the "new" technology of Agent Orange and napalm as unusual.

I don't think it's that unusual... When machine guns and poison gas were used for the first time in the trench wars of world war I, I'd consider the situation similar.
I only think that the type of war changed considerably.
In WWI old tactics and new weapon systems collided, in Vietnam the Americans had to fight seasoned warriors who had gained experience in guerilla warfare in their war against the french.