How Credible is This "Global Warming?"

[justinstrife]

I'm still waiting for very specific points from sugetsu and WHY they will work. Not to mention how they will get implemented. Seems like alot of fantasy talk.

[Vexx]

Just to try to repoint the thread back to the subject of global warming:

'The fact that the oceans are warmer now than they were, say, 30 years ago means there's about on average 4 percent more water vapor lurking around over the oceans than there was... in the 1970s,' says Kevin Trenberth, a prominent climate scientist. 'So one of the consequences of a warming ocean near a coastline like the East Coast and Washington, DC, for instance, is that you can get dumped on with more snow partly as a consequence of global warming.' Increased snowfall also fits a pattern suggested by many climate models, in which rising temperatures increase the amount of atmospheric moisture, bringing more rain in warmer conditions and more snow in freezing temperatures."

-- courtesy Slashdot.

Reminds me of the problems the US and Europe will face if the Atlantic Gulf Stream shuts down as it appears to be doing.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

I'm still waiting for very specific points from sugetsu and WHY they will work. Not to mention how they will get implemented. Seems like alot of fantasy talk.

Oh well, what you know... if only people would actually check the info I have been providing. I mean, it is not like the project hasn't been in the works for nearly a century, so it should be all very poorly thought out.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Oh well, what you know... if only people would actually check the info I have been providing. I mean, it is not like the project hasn't been in the works for nearly a century, so it should be all very poorly thought out.

Link pl0z. I searched the site and all I find are just words, words and words, no economic structure, no concrete detailed plans, no nothing. All they are doing are espousing their beliefs like a group of witchhunters believing themselves to be saints or saviours - not much of pragmatic content if you ask me.

I am actually surprised you are the one laughing, trying to make yourself feel better because you couldn't find any fact to post? I wish you start contributing to the discussion with facts, and now justsomeguy is here, we can have a more constructive one with someone who is a bio major, definitely he knows more than any of us here about evolution, its link to psychology, human behaviour, etc.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Oh well, what you know... if only people would actually check the info I have been providing. I mean, it is not like the project hasn't been in the works for nearly a century, so it should be all very poorly thought out.

The reason it's been in the works for so long is because they still can't figure out how to make it work, and how to get people to accept it.
It's like Duke Nukem Forever - vaporware.
Real good ideas tend to be brilliant in simplicity and implementation.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

The reason it's been in the works for so long is because they still can't figure out how to make it work, and how to get people to accept it.
It's like Duke Nukem Forever - vaporware.
Real good ideas tend to be brilliant in simplicity and implementation.

No idea is perfect. Even if you had an exact plan of how you wanted to implement an idea, someone could offer a better way of doing it. It's not that the people with the idea need to also offer a means of implementation, because idea people aren't always technical people. If I want a cool building, I go to an engineer so he can design it. I know nothing of how to build a structure, but I do know what ideas I have. We work together to make the idea become reality, through his expertise in what is workable and my ideas of how to make the building unique. Together, we make something that previously was vapor. However, the idea was the spark that got the building made in the first place.

Reading up on the Venus Project, I can see why people have a difficult time understanding it. It's not a plan, it's an idea. It's an end goal of "we'd like society to advance to this", instead of "we think this is how society should progress to this". The ideas and concepts, as far fetched as they sound, are no more far fetched than many of the things we use every day. If you were to tell someone 30 years ago that everyone would be connected by a massive global network, or that everyone would be using televisions so thin they could be hung like paintings and look just as real.....you'd get funny looks and people would probably think you were crazy.

However, the Venus Project is a pipe dream. People just aren't ready to transition from our current system to one that's broader in scope. It's very much like the Star Trek system, where money has no meaning and people are more focused on the freedom to explore their potential instead of worrying if they'll have food on the table.

In any case, I am going to request that this thread go back on topic. A new thread discussing the future of human society should be created if people are willing to discuss things like the Venus Project in a civilized manner.

[justsomeguy]

As previously posted by others, earth's geologic temperature record shows fluctuations and cycles over millions of years. While there is actual warming right now, I'm not convinced that it's a result of human activity. It might just be a coincidence* that it "began" with the Industrial Revolution. I'm more concerned about pollution (real garbage and toxins, not CO2) than I am about climate change, which human activity might not even affect.

*not entirely, since climate has an effect on human civilization

[synaesthetic]

He said it in a really confusing way, but basically what Sugetsu means is (and I'm finding myself agreeing with some of it):

You are you. You're not x or y or z. You're just you. I am me, not a or b or c. I'm just me. Defining a person by their beliefs or hobbies or interests is idiotic.

Secondly, he was railing specifically against strong belief systems like religion or patriotism because strong beliefs tend to make people cease to think for themselves. "Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs cause the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing."

Basically, hold ideas, hold thoughts, hold hypotheses. These are all malleable and can be changed on a whim or when new information or evidence becomes available. But don't hold beliefs, because beliefs are very hard to change even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I agree with all of this, however I most vehemently do not agree with his #3 point. Sugetsu, you may mean well, but to internalize all of your emotions is psychically toxic. We've all heard of far too many people who suppress all their anger and sadness and end up exploding, suffering a mental breakdown or going on a homicidal rampage. This is not good. Our emotions is just as much a part of our psyche as logic; there's absolutely no reason to cut it off.

And no, capitalism is not out of date. The problems we're having right now are due to the fact that we are not a capitalist society, specifically the European nations and America. We are a "mixed market," a capitalist-flavored version of socialism that's rife with corruption, graft and too much power in the hands of too few people.

I like to call this economic system "crony capitalism," because the defining feature is that there's a degree of cronyism that's sickening in the extreme. In America, businesses do not often compete with each other by trying to make better products faster and cheaper with a bigger smile than the other guy.

No, instead they send lobbyists to Washington to whine and complain and bribe and give extravagant gifts to the lawmakers, so that they will pass regulations beneficial to that corporation and harmful to their competitors.

Which is why I believe lobbyists are the lowest lifeform on Earth, next to cockroaches, pubic lice and lawyers.

[JMvS]

A small political new:

Yvo de Boer will resign from his position as Executive Secretary for the UNFCCC.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I agree with all of this, however I most vehemently do not agree with his #3 point. Sugetsu, you may mean well, but to internalize all of your emotions is psychically toxic. We've all heard of far too many people who suppress all their anger and sadness and end up exploding, suffering a mental breakdown or going on a homicidal rampage. This is not good. Our emotions is just as much a part of our psyche as logic; there's absolutely no reason to cut it off.

Sorry Solace, I know this is out of topic but I have to address this point.

What I mean by turning our attention inwards is not to be self repressed, like a pastor who woes not to engage in sexual activity ever again. Instead we must seek to improve ourselves day to day, by understanding that we program ourselves day to day just by not being conscious of our thoughts; The subconscious mind is powerful, feelings of anger or fear have negative effect on our psyche, but so it to wake up every morning thinking that today is going to be a terrible day or that every time I think about whether she is going to say yes or no to my proposal I become very anxious. You define your reality by thinking.

Therefore, we must strife to know ourselves better every day. The only way to achieve that is by obtaining a degree of humility that lets us get past our egos in order to acknowledge our mistakes and faulty behavioral patterns. However, this is incredibly hard to do. It is much easier for the ego take to control and externalize the blame on everything and everyone, even God, of our problems in life.

Which is why I believe lobbyists are the lowest lifeform on Earth, next to cockroaches, pubic lice and lawyers.

Thinking lowly of another person won't solve any problems. Lobbyist, stock holders, gamblers, lawyers, bankers... etc they are all a product of our system. Human beings are neither good or bad, we are just affected by our environment. Change the system and they will disappear.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Thinking lowly of another person won't solve any problems. Lobbyist, stock holders, gamblers, lawyers, bankers... etc they are all a product of our system. Human beings are neither good or bad, we are just affected by our environment. Change the system and they will disappear.

Perhaps we should divert this to a thread on Human Nature and Prospects, but I'd like to nuance a bit this statement:

What is intrinsically neutral is not Human Nature, but human acts, geared toward survival and perpetuation, via resources and security acquisition , be them enslaving/murdering/exterminating/eating it's neighbor, it's neighbor family or their pet, as long as the benefit is substantially superior to the cost.
Now what is definitely affected by the (social) environment, is the perception of those human acts: after all, go exterminate to the last children (or enslave, or eat if you are resource conscious) the evil forest tribe living the other side of the river was (is still?) more often than not an honorable if not glorious feat, because it ensured your society survival and prosperity; but doing the same to the evil suburb neighborhood living the other side of the river is more often than not considered a crime, according to the society's rules, because it threatens social order.

Same for "leeching": the "Big Man" making his tribes folk gather food and resources in his stead while he "supervises"/pray the Gods/etc... is not intrinsically evil, but neutral, as it ensure for him better survival and perpetuation chances. It'll continue as long as a no more powerful "Big Man" appear, or the tribe folks revolt because they feel their chances for survival and perpetuation have been too lowered.
It could even do good (assuming that a more complex and advanced society is better), if he does some actually productive supervising, or diverts some of the resources to specialized crafters and thinkers who will lead the march toward progress, so as long as the society or "The System" is successful, it will issue rules to ensure it's continuation.
Actually not that much has changed in this regard during the past millennias: rulers and merchant arise as societies get more complex, and last until a disaster/invasion/uprising/economic crisis displace them, after what new rulers and merchants arise again...

All of this could be linked to the Ego you want so much to get rid of, and it might be true that it's suppression might actually lead to something (but I don't know what).
But given that Ego is related to the key survival instinct and has been a major factor into the complexification and progress of our societies, I think it's pretty clear that removing it will lead to nothing but a flock of mindless drones...

Of course, some would find complexification and progress things to get rid of, since Human being affect their environment, and as they associate and develop complex societies and technologies, so do their ability to do so.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by JMvS

All of this could be linked to the Ego you want so much to get rid of, and it might be true that it's suppression might actually lead to something (but I don't know what).

I do not seek to get rid of it. It is impossible, even Jesus christ was selfish when he wanted everyone to know that he and his father have done wonderful things, therefore he was seeking praise. What is possible is to bring the ego to a balanced state by creating a system in which the ego is no longer empowered. Ego is after all a survival mechanism and has served us well, specially in those hard times in human history when it was every man for himself. Balance is the key.

---

But yeah, back on topic, as Solace requested we should create another topic if we seek to discuss the human condition and its future. If you want to comment on anything non related to global warming send me a PM or start a new thread. I might create one when I have more time, because I would like to make sure there are some clear parameters to follow in order not to derail it, but anyone else is welcome to start it.

[JMvS]

An interesting find regarding climate and sea level history:

Evidence for an episode of higher than present sea level in the middle of the most recent Ice-Age.

[Kaijo]

My own view is that the climate has always been changing. Is mankind affecting? Good chance of that. So what do we do about it?

Nothing. The climate is gonna change regardless of what we do. We can't afford to toss a ton of money at stuff that *might* have an effect. Instead, let's spend that money wisely.

Focus on reducing pollution, and more green energy production. Those have a obvious positive effect now, and need more money. Like more nuclear energy generation and more electric car investment. France is about 70% run on nuclear, and they are sitting better than the rest of the developed world for greenhouse gases.

With the increased power and being less reliant on oil, we can help developing countries not be reliant on an outside power source, and we won't fund terrorism.

Pretty cut and dry, in my opinion.

[synaesthetic]

It's hard for America to make any kind of major switch over to nuclear, at least until that retarded law against reprocessing spent fuel rods gets axed.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

It's hard for America to make any kind of major switch over to nuclear, at least until that retarded law against reprocessing spent fuel rods gets axed.

True, which is why it needs to get axed, and we need to reprocess and build a variety of reactors so we can keep reusing fuel until it only needs a short time before it's no longer an issue.

Clear up some of the red tape, smack heavily polluting coal plants with additional red tape to reflect it's true cost, and we'll start to see nuclear power reacting cost parity. Natural Gas can work, too, and it's important to use solar and wind where we can, as well. Don't be reliant on one source for power, but a lot of renewable sources.

I'm joining the growing crowd that says "Do you believe in Climate Change?" is the wrong question. This world is always going to change; let's learn to change with it. And let's put our resources to things that actually matter and can make a real difference now. Not 1-2 degrees in 100 years.

[synaesthetic]

That's what I've been saying for a while. We're not going to stop climate change since that is impossible. We should just work to make sure we stop shitting in our bed, so to speak.

[Lio]

I'm joining the growing crowd that says "Do you believe in Climate Change?" is the wrong question. This world is always going to change; let's learn to change with it. And let's put our resources to things that actually matter and can make a real difference now. Not 1-2 degrees in 100 years.

That's what I've been saying for a while. We're not going to stop climate change since that is impossible. We should just work to make sure we stop shitting in our bed, so to speak.

Too bad all those uneducated people actually need an excuse to treat the planet well.

Global Warming or not, I've always been eco-friendly. Why? Because I intuitively understand that the Earth owns us, not the other way around, that we are nature, and to destroy what is a part of us is stupid.

People treat the Earth as if it's something to be exploited for the sole purpose of making money from, turning this beautiful blue-green ball of infinite possibilities into a trans-continental shopping mall. Of course it's natural that the environment is being destroyed in all sorts of ways, our bodies are being exposed to all sorts of pollutants... and now the icecaps are melting.

Should we be surprised?

I'll bet that the Earth is not amused at our petty attempts at making this planet our own, when in reality we belong to the planet. Not until it submerges all our land, gobbles us up and returns the planet back to how it was before we got mammals. Then it'll be amused. Except for all the styrofoam and plastic bags we left behind. Well, the Earth will just have to learn to deal with it.

[MeoTwister5]

The problem with atomic power is that people have always been told since the US nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima is that nuclear power is "ZOMG MUTANTS" or "ZOMG WMDS". Once you get passed all the fear mongering, if you actually know how to handle radioactive energy sources properly nuclear energy is remarkably clean and efficient.

But of course you have Chernobyl and The Simpsons so people now think nuclear power is teh evilz.