Sword Art Online - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yet in the entire series there are only two girls who are in love with Kirito. One is his actual girlfriend, one was introduced only recently.


And before people start mentioning every single girl in the story ever, don't bother. They weren't in love with Kirito. Attraction does not mean love. They are two related but completely different things. Well, Sachi may be debatable but she spent like a month with him? Also, Sachi is now dead so the point is moot to begin with.

Now you are warping the whole cast XD:

At least Lisbeth (but normally Silica aswell) are in love with Kirito.

She did indeed confess her love to Kirito, but knew at the same time that her best friend Asuna was already in love with him so for her sake she stopped herself going after him. It is basically the same situation as with Sugu right now the only difference is that Sugu knows that Kazuto is in love with Asuna and doesn't want to go between them.

But the one and only girl in the story till now who wasn't in love with Kirito was Sachi.

It is right that she held great affection for Kirito and that she wanted him to protect her but under no viewpoint she ever was in love with him. She slept in his bed, ok, but she never even considered a further step in their relationship. The whole thing was more like a best friend relationship between a boy and a girl something many people nowadays believe to be impossible.

It's the same difference as the difference between being attracted to someone and being in love with them.

Liz can't possibly have been in love with Kirito seeing how they only spent a day together.

Never heard of love at first sight? xD

Well you can obviously debate about it if her love to Kirito is justified or not, but it is undoubtly there.

Ofc you can deny it and it would make things easier but believe me, she is totally lovey-dovey with him.

EDIT: No the main point why this isn't a harem is becuz while many girls love Kirito, Kirito only has eyes for Asuna and under no circumstances he would ever consider another girls as his girlfriend, so the whole point of a harem is nonexistent thus it can't be considered one.

[Kizoku Keenan]

the timing of this new world story is definitely slower compared to SAO but I guess that was due o SAO lasting years where Alf is done in days.

looking forward to kirito and his sister discovering that they are also adventuring in the game.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yet in the entire series there are only two girls who are in love with Kirito. One is his actual girlfriend, one was introduced only recently.


And before people start mentioning every single girl in the story ever, don't bother. They weren't in love with Kirito. Attraction does not mean love. They are two related but completely different things. Well, Sachi may be debatable but she spent like a month with him? Also, Sachi is now dead so the point is moot to begin with.

Well, it's up to you if you want to redefine the genre or how you would like to define it personally. Genre definitions and such are tentative most of the time after all.

But look, I get that SAO's harem elements aren't really the pivotal element in the overall story, but it is there (it doesn't mean there is an actual harem existing in the stories, but the elements that defines the genre). Ai Yori Aoshi was considered a harem genre despite Kaoru only has eyes on Aoi and almost none of the other girls are really in love with Kaoru. Ah! My Goddess was like that as well (though the later volumes seems to give every other girl a possible love interest). It may not define the whole show of SAO, but elements of it certainly exists. Really, the harem genre isn't such a bad label so I don't get why people have to try to deny the label away from the show.

Also, in addition, there is a difference between harem as a "genre" and harem as an "ending/route". SAO certainly is NOT following the harem route.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dengar

It's the same difference as the difference between being attracted to someone and being in love with them.

Liz can't possibly have been in love with Kirito seeing how they only spent a day together.

That doesn't make sense, why can't you fall in love in one day?

Especially when it's to the point that you're on the verge of confessing.

[Trajan]

I was one of the ones who mentioned the "harem-ish" (as I called it) aspects of SAO. I believe that a show where the main and most of the secondary female characters have an attraction to the male protagonist--to the exclusion of being interested in any other male character--contains a harem dynamic, even if the protagonist is only interested in one character.

The reason I mentioned the harem dynamic is that I found it evidence of SAO's subtlely sexist treatment of its female characters. It's not explicit like many other anime, but it's certainly there, and I think it's important to recognize it as such.

In SAO, if you are a teenage girl and a decent-looking boy does something nice for you, your vagina apparently compels you to be attracted to him. The identity of your gender, not your identity as an individual is the more determinative factor. Of course, some will state this is not about gender, but about the girls falling for the protagonist. But if it's not a gender issue, then where are the guys who are attracted to Kirito?

Further, the fan-service in SAO has been used to sexualize only the female characters. One specific example is the pre and post-coital sex scenes between Kirito and Asuna. If I remember correctly, she is the only one shown in her underwear pre-bed, and post-bed she is naked and Kirito is in all his clothes. Sexualizing the female character through nudity while at the same time keeping the male clothed is a subtle way of nudging the audience to see the female as a sexual object and not the man.

For two more examples, we've seen both Silica and Suguha less than fully clothed in bed, but as far as I can recall, Kirito has been fully "covered up" by clothing any time we've seen him in bed.

Finally, the portrayal of female leadership in SAO has consistently reinforced gender stereotypes. If you are a woman in a non-traditional female leadership role, either you are a bad person (Rosalia), bad things will happen to you (Griselda), or it will be too much for your little female heart to bear (Asuna). However, if you stay home and take care of the kids (Sasha), you'll be just fine in the end.

I'm not arguing that this makes SAO a "bad" show, but I do think it's important to recognize that a character's gender plays a large part in how they are portrayed in this series. It's only by being aware of our bias that we can ever hope to overcome it. And ironically, the current arc, which I find to be superior (so far) to the SAO arc in storytelling, is far more blatant in its use of sexist tropes than the SAO arc.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

That doesn't make sense, why can't you fall in love in one day?

Especially when it's to the point that you're on the verge of confessing.

Maybe because it is not really love but a superficial crush or infatuation but nothing beyond that?

I know plenty of girls why claimed to be in love with a guy they basicelly knew nothing about, except that he is somehow cool and looks nice. But after confessing and goung out, this so called love ended suddenly after a couple of days or a week, simply because those feelings were never really deep in the first place.


In short.
To really love someone, you most know that person for a bit longer than a day.
Of course this is only my humble opinion.

[Kizoku Keenan]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Maybe because it is not really love but a superficial crush or infatuation but nothing beyond that?

I know plenty of girls why claimed to be in love with a guy they basicelly knew nothing about, except that he is somehow cool and looks nice. But after confessing and goung out, this so called love ended suddenly after a couple of days or a week, simply because those feelings were never really deep in the first place.


In short.
To really love someone, you most know that person for a bit longer than a day.
Of course this is only my humble opinion.

very much like the sasuake and sakura relationship in Naruto, she loves him with no real reason for doing so. I think that in SAO's circumstances its just mere infatuation and nothing more but who can tell we shall see soon.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Kizoku Keenan

very much like the sasuake and sakura relationship in Naruto, she loves him with no real reason for doing so. I think that in SAO's circumstances its just mere infatuation and nothing more but who can tell we shall see soon.

Well Sakura knew Sasuke for a far longer time than a day, so it is not comparable.

I don't really think that we will see Silica or Liz ever again. They play their roles and fulfilled their purpose to the story.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Well Sakura knew Sasuke for a far longer time than a day, so it is not comparable.

I don't really think that we will see Silica or Liz ever again. They play their roles and fulfilled their purpose to the story.

Sakura was 'in love' with him before she ever talked to him though.

Are you making baseless assumptions or basing that on novel spoilers? Neither has any place in this discussion I think.

[Clarste]

This is kind of a side issue, but in conversations on the last few pages it was mentioned a number of times that Asuna is a gamer girl, specifically that mythical being that gamers supposedly fantasize about (as opposed to just a girl who plays games). I don't see how she's either though. It was established in episode 2 that she's basically a noob who's never played an MMO before, maybe not even any RPG, and while she does eventually become one of the top players that was out of necessity, not that she really wanted to. Simply put, to her SAO isn't a game and never was. If she were trapped in a fantasy world instead of SAO, surely she would have picked up a sword anyway. That's just the kind of person she is.

I mean, it's not exactly subtle. Many of her interactions with Kirito are based around the "reality" of their situation, and even as recently as this episode she tells Sugou that he doesn't understand how she feels about the reality of her imprisonment/abuse. And, well, given that she hasn't really escaped SAO yet, she's never had the opportunity to even think about playing another game. So, as of yet, Asuna has never played a video game. She wouldn't understand the joy Kirito feels in being able to harmlessly PK people while roleplaying as the knight saving the princess. So... she's not a gamer. She doesn't have a single gamer bone in her body, or at least we've never seen any evidence of it.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Znail

Sakura was 'in love' with him before she ever talked to him though.

Just like Hinata with Naruto...

Are you making baseless assumptions or basing that on novel spoilers? Neither has any place in this discussion I think.

I don't know why you are reacting so aggressive. It was just a simple guess.

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

I know plenty of girls why claimed to be in love with a guy they basicelly knew nothing about, except that he is somehow cool and looks nice. But after confessing and goung out, this so called love ended suddenly after a couple of days or a week, simply because those feelings were never really deep in the first place.


In short.
To really love someone, you most know that person for a bit longer than a day.
Of course this is only my humble opinion.

I think this all depends on how the word love is define, which, of course, most of us refer to the way western society's laws and social norms define the word.

However, regardless of how the word is defined and how loosely people might throw the word "love" around in daily life, the line between love and a strong infatuation/obsession is very thin. give your above example of a few girls' baseless affection for some random guy that they barely know, how long did they know these guys before approaching them? or in other words, how long did they have to develop their "love"/feelings before approaching the guy and blasting their fantasies to pieces?

The point I'm trying to get at here is that if you never get a chance to see the "ugly-side" (if you will), of your object of obsession, your fantasies and imagination can take over and fill out all the qualities of the guy whom you barely know. one can understand how girls at Sugu, or Liz, or Scilica's age would develop these kinds of obsessions. I mean, who knows what Kirito's schedule's like? he could be disappearing for days or weeks from these girls' lives while their imagination about the black knight runs wild. I think that based on what we've been given in the anime, all of these girls have very strong feelings for him, if not love him. keep in mind these are teenagers

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Maybe because it is not really love but a superficial crush or infatuation but nothing beyond that?

I know plenty of girls why claimed to be in love with a guy they basicelly knew nothing about, except that he is somehow cool and looks nice. But after confessing and goung out, this so called love ended suddenly after a couple of days or a week, simply because those feelings were never really deep in the first place.


In short.
To really love someone, you most know that person for a bit longer than a day.
Of course this is only my humble opinion.

What you're describing is a proper relationship- but I'm talking about the feeling of love.

Yes you could love someone but then fall out of love with them later on and maybe it was misguided or shallow, but it doesn't change the fact that you once loved them.

To put it in context with my question to Dengar- How is it that Liz doesn't count as in love with Kirito?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What you're describing is a proper relationship- but I'm talking about the feeling of love.

Yes you could love someone but then fall out of love with them later on and maybe it was misguided or shallow, but it doesn't change the fact that you once loved them.

To put it in context with my question to Dengar- How is it that Liz doesn't count as in love with Kirito?

I know from experience that you don't need to be in a relationship to fall in love with someone. It is a gradual process that often starts with attraction or infatuation but can also hit you like a ton of bricks after spending an undefined amount of time with someone.

As for Liz, two things:

1) They had only spent a day together. This is enough time to find someone attractive, and to decide that you want to spend more time with a person and hope something more grows from there. This is also how I viewed the confession scene.
2) She discarded the idea too easily after finding out somebody else beat her to it. If you really are in love with someone, letting go should hurt more.

[Dauerlutscher]

Spoiler for Vmem:

Originally Posted by Vmem

I think this all depends on how the word love is define, which, of course, most of us refer to the way western society's laws and social norms define the word.

However, regardless of how the word is defined and how loosely people might throw the word "love" around in daily life, the line between love and a strong infatuation/obsession is very thin. give your above example of a few girls' baseless affection for some random guy that they barely know, how long did they know these guys before approaching them? or in other words, how long did they have to develop their "love"/feelings before approaching the guy and blasting their fantasies to pieces?

The point I'm trying to get at here is that if you never get a chance to see the "ugly-side" (if you will), of your object of obsession, your fantasies and imagination can take over and fill out all the qualities of the guy whom you barely know. one can understand how girls at Sugu, or Liz, or Scilica's age would develop these kinds of obsessions. I mean, who knows what Kirito's schedule's like? he could be disappearing for days or weeks from these girls' lives while their imagination about the black knight runs wild. I think that based on what we've been given in the anime, all of these girls have very strong feelings for him, if not love him. keep in mind these are teenagers

To sum it up. They loved an image they created but not the real Kirito because the basicelly knew nothing about him.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What you're describing is a proper relationship- but I'm talking about the feeling of love.

Nope. I was not describing a relationship. I just gave an example about superficial feelings that some people seem to mitsake with love.

Yes you could love someone but then fall out of love with them later on and maybe it was misguided or shallow, but it doesn't change the fact that you once loved them.

Never said the opposite.

To put it in context with my question to Dengar- How is it that Liz doesn't count as in love with Kirito?

Because she just had a crush on a guy she just met. Those feelings were just too superficial to be called love. How can you love someone you knew nothing about in the first place?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Just like Hinata with Haruto...

Did you just ship Hinata with a character from Saint Seiya?

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Did you just ship Hinata with a character from Saint Seiya?

Lol
It was not even my intention to ship and I dropped Naruto since long ago after I realized that it's one of these stories that will not end...^^

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dengar

.
2) She discarded the idea too easily after finding out somebody else beat her to it. If you really are in love with someone, letting go should hurt more.

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Because she just had a crush on a guy she just met. Those feelings were just too superficial to be called love. How can you love someone you knew nothing about in the first place?

Fine we're going around in circles with this so I'll just ask one more thing- If Liz still holds on to her feelings despite 'letting' Asuna, she wouldn't be that different from Suguha right?

And since it's been months since she met him and how since gotten to know him better, time wouldn't be a problem according to you two am I right again?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Fine we're going around in circles with this so I'll just ask one more thing- If Liz still holds on to her feelings despite 'letting' Asuna, she wouldn't be that different from Suguha right?

And since it's been months since she met him and how since gotten to know him better, time wouldn't be a problem according to you two am I right again?

That's a really big 'if'. It's so unlikely. Hardly anyone holds on to a minor crush, they move on. I don't think she 'let' Asuna do anything. She just realised she had no shot whatsoever and gave up.

Love still wouldn't happen regardless, because Kirito and Liz have never spent time together ever since.

Doing business at a store and "hey how's it hanging?" on the off chance that Kirito's equipment needs repairs does not count as spending time, by the way.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dengar

That's a really big 'if'. It's so unlikely. Hardly anyone holds on to a minor crush, they move on. I don't think she 'let' Asuna do anything. She just realised she had no shot whatsoever and gave up.

Love still wouldn't happen regardless, because Kirito and Liz have never spent time together ever since.

Doing business at a store and "hey how's it hanging?" on the off chance that Kirito's equipment needs repairs does not count as spending time, by the way.

You know, going by that, Asuna and Kirito hardly ever spent time either up till their marriage.

Getting together once in a while to fight bosses doesn't count as spending time.

So again, what is the difference?