Yah yah yah, you guys won.. MKV is good >_>

[shoggoth80]

"Yah im pretty lazy, im hosting a WoW server, hosting the AniRena tracker, hosting a IRC server for Rizon, Encoding for 6 fansub groups, staff at 2 big Japanese conventions and there I got my job...
Do you call that lazy ? :P"

No I call that very, very hectic, preoccupied, or busy.
Too busy to be bothered by putting chapters in MKV files!
Not like it's a bad thing, one cannot complain about getting to watch aa show that you otherwise wouldn't have access to (or very limited access).

MKVs are interesting, and I just started learning about what makes them different from other encodes. I suppose they are easier to sub, since the subs can be done as a "soft sub?"

[martino]

Note: MKV is not an encoder, but a container. Well, MKV supports Vorbis in addition to softsubs (the two main features when compared to MP4), and many other video/audio formats and features;
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...title=Matroska
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=MP4
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=OGM
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=AVI

See the difference between all those containers, pretty big isn't it?

One relatively good comparison in table form can be found here on Wikipedia.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by martino

http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...title=Matroska
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=MP4
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=OGM
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=AVI

Quick but very relevant addition to that list:
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...tle=Video_file

[shoggoth80]

So, if I interpret this correctly, the video file can still be .avi, .mpg, Xvid or DivX... but the MKV allows you to pack in more stuff along with that? So you could toss in AC3, or MP3 Audio, and a .SFV for soft subs? Am I on the right track here?

Is it fundamentally easier or faster to create soft subs for a video file than to hard sub it? If this is the case, I can see why a lot of fansub groups would use it (aside from the option of watching it as a raw), as anything that makes the job easier or faster will improve turn around time between episodes, without a loss in quality of work.

[jfs]

AVI is not a video coding, but a container format just like Matroska, except that AVI supports much less fancy things. But yes, anything you can put in AVI you can also put in Matroska.

But really it's slightly more work for the encoder to make Matroska releases. The only way using Matroska can save time is when using softsubs, and a release candidate fails because of problems with the subtitles. Then you just need to fix the subtitles and re-mux the mkv file, instead re-encoding the entire video.

(And uh, SFV is not a subtitle format, it's Simple File Verification, a collection of CRC32 file checksums. You're probably confusing it with SRT, SubRip Text.)

[checkers]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Quick but very relevant addition to that list:
http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/ind...tle=Video_file

And a link to the updated version of the latter link:
http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/Computer_movie_files

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by Power2All

Am I that easy to read ?
>_>
Yah im pretty lazy, im hosting a WoW server, hosting the AniRena tracker, hosting a IRC server for Rizon, Encoding for 6 fansub groups, staff at 2 big Japanese conventions and there I got my job...
Do you call that lazy ? :P

- Power2All

Running a WoW server.

Err... Hmm... You don't... NEED to be doing that... you know?

Also, encoding for 6 groups is too much.

It takes me 8-10 hours of encoding to produce a Huffy normally. This is TRUE ENCODING MAN POWER!!!! Thanks.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

Running a WoW server.

Err... Hmm... You don't... NEED to be doing that... you know?

Also, encoding for 6 groups is too much.

It takes me 8-10 hours of encoding to produce a Huffy normally. This is TRUE ENCODING MAN POWER!!!! Thanks.

Maybe he has 6 computers?

[tun]

god damn nerd encoding wars. you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. think about who you're doing this crap for; the fans. what's the point if they can't even play it? I have a great comp so it's no sweat off my back but I feel for the guys with comps that belong in the stone age like digiboy123.

[martino]

We can all stop if you wish it. We have better things to do, and I'm sure of it...

[checkers]

Originally Posted by tun

think about who you're doing this crap for; the fans.

People don't release stuff for the fans, they release stuff because they want to. They don't owe "the fans" anything.

In other news: huge flamestorm approaching, more at 11.

[Quarkboy]

Does anyone else notice that whenever anyone mentions "fans" the "flames" follow soon after?

The world DOES make sense, if you think about it for a while.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by tun

god damn nerd encoding wars. you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. think about who you're doing this crap for; the fans. what's the point if they can't even play it? I have a great comp so it's no sweat off my back but I feel for the guys with comps that belong in the stone age like digiboy123.

Hint: MKV in itself isn't any less playable on slower computers than AVI is.

[hooliganj]

In and of itself, MKV isn't a big deal - it's the fancy stuff it supports that can cause problems. Softsubs alone can render a file unwatchable on some of the computers mentioned in this thread, Vorbis causes further issues, and HD releases can even make my own modest 1.4gH machine throw in the towel.

There are legal ramifications to consider here, as well. If a release uses softsubs, then included in the file is an unmodified copy of the original video, whatever the format - which almost completely destroys any claim of a "substantial transformation" of the work. Also, while digisubbing in general raises this argument, it is only reinforced by the distribution of HD fansubs - if the quality isn't reduced in the mass release, the protection gained from the legal precedents set for VHS recorders is eliminated.

These are points to be considered in any advance in the technology we use for fansubbing, but MKV makes some reckless jumps in the wrong direction.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

In and of itself, MKV isn't a big deal - it's the fancy stuff it supports that can cause problems. Softsubs alone can render a file unwatchable on some of the computers mentioned in this thread, Vorbis causes further issues, and HD releases can even make my own modest 1.4gH machine throw in the towel.

Turn on subtitle buffering and softsubs aren't such a big deal, not even with VSFilter. The audio decoding has such a small impact on total decoding speed that even if Vorbis decoding was half as fast as mp3 decoding (it isn't, it's about as fast or possibly even faster in some cases) it wouldn't matter.
HD releases, on the other hand, are not a good idea on older computers, news at eleven.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

There are legal ramifications to consider here, as well.

No, there aren't. Warez are warez.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

If a release uses softsubs, then included in the file is an unmodified copy of the original video, whatever the format - which almost completely destroys any claim of a "substantial transformation" of the work. Also, while digisubbing in general raises this argument, it is only reinforced by the distribution of HD fansubs - if the quality isn't reduced in the mass release, the protection gained from the legal precedents set for VHS recorders is eliminated.

What? Legal precedents set for VHS recorders? Excuse me, but WTF are you talking about?
OK, I realize you're one of those hilarious people with delusions about some kind of legal fansubbing, but this is kinda off the chart even for one of you.
First off, all this debate about "derivative works" or no is completely pointless. Distributing a hardsubbed copy of the video to the general public without permission from the copyright owner(s) is a violation of the copyright laws. Distributing a non-HD, quality degraded copy of the video without permission is a violation of copyright laws. Actually distributing any part(s) of the video at all, regardless of what you have done to it (such as cutting it into an AMV for example) is a violation of the copyright laws. The ONLY exception to this is, in the US, the "fair use" clause, but that doesn't get you very far, since what it allows you to do is make ONE copy of the video for your own personal purposes, if you obtained it legally in the first place. (It also allows things like display of screenshots on wikipedia or review sites - possibly. Noone knows since it's never been tried in court.) Oh, and if the broadcast was encrypted when it was aired (yes, if it was a Japanese HD broadcast), you, or rather the capper, are now in violation of the DMCA as well. Have fun, fair use gives you exactly nothing here.
It should also be noted that many countries outside the US doesn't even have anything like a fair use clause at all.

What you seem to believe is that if you change the work in some way (illegal), such as hardsubbing it (doesn't make it a "derivative work", and even if it did it'd still be illegal), before distributing it to the public (highly illegal) in a quality-degraded fashion (doesn't matter in the slightest) it will suddenly magically become legal (no).
To my own great delight, I do not only have to inform you that this belief is about as wrong as anything can get, but also that you, and all people who download or are involved in the creation of fansubs, are (and always have been, ever since the first VHS fansub) the exact same kind of warez pirates as those of the more well-known ones in "the scene".

Have a nice day reconsidering your world view.

[Nicholi]

Did I just hear you say fansubbing is only ethical if its low quality? Lols.

Anyways onto your "points". Since you seem to say Matroska is the "wrong direction" for fansubbing, what is the right one? Its not as though you couldn't put insane HD resolutions into AVI, and god forbid put H.264 into it either.

Softsubs I'll grant can be slow, but only because VSFilter is not the speediest of subtitle renderers. However VSFilter (aka VobSub) has been around a good 5'ish years, and anyone with a sane machine has had no trouble playing softsubs to my knowledge. One might ask: why doesn't HD H.264 + soft subtitles work sometimes? Are you just trying to find insane examples of why slow people's computers are in fact slow :P. Since the VSFilter dev (Gabest) has otherwise not been able to actively work on any of his filters, of which there is a large need to, we've seen a rise in other renderers being developed. libass for mplayer and asa which is going to attempt to not only become the VSFilter replacement in DShow but is now to be included into VLC in the future.

Vorbis doesn't cause any issues to my knowledge (unless you don't have a decoder installed, big surprise). Could you show us some evidence of this which has clearly been shrouded in mystery to the public?

Matroska is a great "direction" for any community. It allows you to do almost anything you want. You could make low quality SD releases with it, or extremely high quality HD ones. It allows you to use almost any video format with any audio format you wish. Has native chapter support, allows variable framerates, linking to other segments (which can be fun and painful at the same time), soft subtitles, attachments, etc. I don't know why it would be a bad reason to choose a format which allows you the most options.

[hooliganj]

I'm not sure I understand this attitude that slow computers should somehow be considered the fault of their owner. Also, keep in mind that my technical and legal arguments are separate for a reason. MKV is a bad direction legally. Technically it allows for a lot of different options, but it raises the question - should you use these options, just because you can? Further - if there are lengths to which you shouldn't go, whether out of ethical/legal considerations or just out of respect for your consumers, then why is making those options available a good thing? Given the ad hominem attacks that came at me in the very next post, I can't believe that everyone has given this question the consideration it deserves.

TheFluff, since you seem to be so eager to educate me, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I am aware of the fact that fansubs fail to meet the standard of a derivative work (I didn't even try to bring up fair use - a completely separate legal concept, so I'm not sure why you did). What my point boils down to is the idea that while the law may not support our endeavors, I prefer not to think of myself as engaged in a criminal enterprise, rather one that is morally feasible (albeit still debatable) while attempting to comply as best I can to what legal ground I can find. In other words, if this mess were ever taken to court, I'd like my own sentence to be a slap on the wrist rather than the massive fine many people potentially face. You can (and probably will) dismiss my views as rationalization, however I don't think I'm alone in thinking that rushing wholeheartedly and enthusiastically into ever more unconscionable practices is beneficial for nobody.

Nicholi, I did not say that "fansubbing is only ethical if its low quality", I only said that fansubbing loses one potential legal protection if releases are consistently of the same quality as the original releases. To summarize the standing, a copy of a broadcast work is acceptable so long as it fails to meet the same standards of quality as the original broadcast. The company must be able to maintain a superior version of the product. Now even meeting this test, distribution among the general public is still illegal, so there's no safe ground here, however, as I said before, a party could hope for some mollification, and certainly hope to avoid drawing further attention and ire from the companies that hold the all the rights.

Vorbis doesn't cause any issues to my knowledge (unless you don't have a decoder installed, big surprise). Could you show us some evidence of this which has clearly been shrouded in mystery to the public?

I don't have direct evidence, because I run it just fine. I can even run most MKVs to an acceptable standard of quality. A lot of the errors I personally encounter in the format can be attributed to lazy encoding. However, I am also aware of the resources consumed by the format, and of the fact that not everyone who wants to watch fansubs meets the requirements imposed by the format. If you need some kind of 'evidence' to reach such an obvious conclusion, I can offer anecdotal - if I try to bring fansubs to watch when I visit my parents' house, I have to make sure that they're divx or xvid AVIs - their 600 mH machine won't run much beyond that. Soft or hard subs or audio formats don't even matter at that point - the MKV container itself is too much. Basically it boils down to this: I don't believe people should be punished for owning slow computers.

A side note:

Have a nice day reconsidering your world view.

Republican party hack rhetoric hasn't kept me from being unabashedly liberal, so I think that your comparatively feeble prose is unlikely to accomplish such a paradigm shift.

[checkers]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Basically it boils down to this: I don't believe people should be punished for owning slow computers.

A side note:

Republican party hack rhetoric hasn't kept me from being unabashedly liberal, so I think that your comparatively feeble prose is unlikely to accomplish such a paradigm shift.

I'm only dealing with these last two sentences, because they are retarded.

1) Please show me where in the rules it says encoders are doing this for the poor unwashed masses. Oh yes, there aren't rules regarding this, nor are there obligations, or any sort of requirement that encoders must encode to the lowest common denominator. I have an E6400 @ 2.5Ghz. I encode videos at 720p and above in h264 because I can watch them. I don't really care if others can't watch what I encode, a large number can, and the others can simply not download it. I t ' s n o t p u n i s h m e n t i f t h e y d o n ' t h a v e t o d o w n l o a d i t .

2) I'M A FRACKING AUSTRALIAN LIBERAL. THIS ISN'T A US PLOT DESIGNED TO KILL BABIES OR BE MEAN TO YOUR GRANNY, IT'S JUST THE FACT YOU AND YOUR SILENT MAJORITY AREN'T THE CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

MKV is a bad direction legally.

I still fail to see just exactly you can draw this conclusion.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Technically it allows for a lot of different options, but it raises the question - should you use these options, just because you can? Further - if there are lengths to which you shouldn't go, whether out of ethical/legal considerations or just out of respect for your consumers, then why is making those options available a good thing? Given the ad hominem attacks that came at me in the very next post, I can't believe that everyone has given this question the consideration it deserves.

Yes, obviously softsubs and H.264 are Lengths to which a truly Ethical Fansubber would never go. Oh, and making HQ encodes that aren't playable on everything from a 486 and up (hey, they still exist, you know!) is obviously Disrespectful towards your Honored Consumers. Wait, what consumers, since when do they pay anything? Oh, and there totally aren't any ETHICAL uses for H.264 or softsubs whatsoever so why the heck do they exist in MKV at all!?

Originally Posted by hooliganj

TheFluff, since you seem to be so eager to educate me, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I am aware of the fact that fansubs fail to meet the standard of a derivative work (I didn't even try to bring up fair use - a completely separate legal concept, so I'm not sure why you did). What my point boils down to is the idea that while the law may not support our endeavors, I prefer not to think of myself as engaged in a criminal enterprise, rather one that is morally feasible (albeit still debatable) while attempting to comply as best I can to what legal ground I can find. In other words, if this mess were ever taken to court, I'd like my own sentence to be a slap on the wrist rather than the massive fine many people potentially face. You can (and probably will) dismiss my views as rationalization, however I don't think I'm alone in thinking that rushing wholeheartedly and enthusiastically into ever more unconscionable practices is beneficial for nobody.

Uh, you don't seem to get it. At all. If you have downloaded or created a fansub and ever get taken to court for it, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether it was hardsubbed or not, H.264 or not, or even what your intention with it was. You have still illegally distributed (or in the case of downloading, (knowingly) illegally obtained) a copy of a copyrighted work. The crime is the same and so is the punishment. Your delusions that low quality hardsubs somehow make it more legal or less offensive to the copyright owner will not help you in the slightest.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Nicholi, I did not say that "fansubbing is only ethical if its low quality", I only said that fansubbing loses one potential legal protection if releases are consistently of the same quality as the original releases.

Where exactly did you get the impression that there could ever be such a potential legal protection? I'd like to know, because whatever crack you are smoking seems pretty damn good and I could probably make a good profit off selling it.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

To summarize the standing, a copy of a broadcast work is acceptable so long as it fails to meet the same standards of quality as the original broadcast.

What? Where the heck did you ever get this impression?

Originally Posted by hooliganj

The company must be able to maintain a superior version of the product.

I guess that makes video filtering illegal, too.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Now even meeting this test, distribution among the general public is still illegal, so there's no safe ground here, however, as I said before, a party could hope for some mollification, and certainly hope to avoid drawing further attention and ire from the companies that hold the all the rights.

No, they couldn't. Seriously, what the christ makes you think this? Illegal distribution is illegal distribution. Or did you think that transcoding something for the PSP before releasing it somehow makes it more legal and less sueable?

Originally Posted by hooliganj

I don't have direct evidence

Why are you bothering to post at all, then?

Originally Posted by hooliganj

because I run it just fine. I can even run most MKVs to an acceptable standard of quality. A lot of the errors I personally encounter in the format can be attributed to lazy encoding. However, I am also aware of the resources consumed by the format, and of the fact that not everyone who wants to watch fansubs meets the requirements imposed by the format. If you need some kind of 'evidence' to reach such an obvious conclusion, I can offer anecdotal - if I try to bring fansubs to watch when I visit my parents' house, I have to make sure that they're divx or xvid AVIs - their 600 mH machine won't run much beyond that. Basically it boils down to this: I don't believe people should be punished for owning slow computers.

Uh, it has been proven approximately 53454 times that the MKV splitter is not significantly slower than the AVI one. Again, even if it was, the CPU usage of the splitter alone is so incredibly much smaller than either the audio or the video decoding is that again, even if MKV was three or four times slower it would not matter at all.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Republican party hack rhetoric hasn't kept me from being unabashedly liberal, so I think that your comparatively feeble prose is unlikely to accomplish such a paradigm shift.

Wait, did you just call me a republican?
I think you did.
And in that case, I don't think I have ever been so insulted in my life. :V
Dude, on the American scale I'm so far off to the left you'd call me a communist. I also happen to believe that warez are not a bad thing (member of the Swedish Pirate Party, what up yo).

[Nicholi]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

Nicholi, I did not say that "fansubbing is only ethical if its low quality", I only said that fansubbing loses one potential legal protection if releases are consistently of the same quality as the original releases.

Fansubs have no legal protection. End of story. When/If the japanese copyright holder wants to shut you down, they could. However much like the companies in the US which own the licenses, they do not have money just laying around to deal with such legal fees abroad (aka stopping DVD rips, in their native country). This is not legal protection. Unless you have respectively asked the copyright holder if you could fansub their material, you have no legal protection at all.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

I don't have direct evidence, because I run it just fine. I can even run most MKVs to an acceptable standard of quality. A lot of the errors I personally encounter in the format can be attributed to lazy encoding. However, I am also aware of the resources consumed by the format, and of the fact that not everyone who wants to watch fansubs meets the requirements imposed by the format.

Perhaps you could enlighten us to the mystery of the unreasonable requirements Vorbis puts upon the user? To my knowledge the difference is quite inconsequential. As compared to using H.264, which is certainly not. Randomly comparing totally different encodes when one happens to have Vorbis does not really make any sort of universal conclusion about the format. As the video in the files you "compared" could have a completely different resolution and bitrate which would totally change the CPU usage for the file as a whole, which is what you seem to be measuring. Can I play the file at all? The most accurate way to find Vorbis's difference in usage would be to decode Vorbis by itself, compared to decoding MP3. Yes, there is a slightly higher requirement for decoding Vorbis, but anyone not on a 600MHz machine is unlikely to note the difference. And I've played plenty of SD encodes with Vorbis on an old 733 MHz Athlon Thunderbird. Pretty ludicrous claim of Vorbis being the thing bringing us all down. You'd have a much better troll arguement using H.264/AVC.

Originally Posted by hooliganj

If you need some kind of 'evidence' to reach such an obvious conclusion, I can offer anecdotal - if I try to bring fansubs to watch when I visit my parents' house, I have to make sure that they're divx or xvid AVIs - their 600 mH machine won't run much beyond that. Soft or hard subs or audio formats don't even matter at that point - the MKV container itself is too much. Basically it boils down to this: I don't believe people should be punished for owning slow computers.

The Matroska container itself poses no playback restrictions on your parent's computer. You could remux those same DivX/Xvid AVIs to MKV and they would still play on that computer. If you would like to test Vorbis's ability to play on that computer, take the encode with DivX/Xvid + MP3, and re-encode the MP3 to generally the same bitrate in Vorbis. Try and play the file.