Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

Last I saw the data book has Sasuke's and Neji's potential as being equal.

As a matter of fact no they don't. The only living character whose potential was equal to Sasuke in the Data Book is Naruto.

As for the Uchiha/Hyuga clan even if it's not really on topic, I don't really see the answer as an opinion only : while the Hyuga was said by Hiashi to be the strongest clan in Konoha once -and he's right since the Uchiha clan is no more- there are in the other hand dozens of quote stating that the Uchiha was the strongest clan. Out of characters's mouths, both the Data Books also state this as a fact.
Personally I think you hope way too much from the story about the Hyuga. If Neji was as important as Sasuke storywise you would have a point but it's not -by far- the case.
The Byakugan and Jyuken are very interesting abilities and probably my favorite fighting style in the show but plotwise their importance is null whereas the Sharingan is part of pretty much everything in the show. This fact alone explains why there will always be more about the Sharingan than the Byakugan.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Hunter

As a matter of fact no they don't. The only living character whose potential was equal to Sasuke in the Data Book is Naruto.

As for the Uchiha/Hyuga clan even if it's not really on topic, I don't really see the answer as an opinion only : while the Hyuga was said by Hiashi to be the strongest clan in Konoha once -and he's right since the Uchiha clan is no more- there are in the other hand dozens of quote stating that the Uchiha was the strongest clan. Out of characters's mouths, both the Data Books also state this as a fact.
Personally I think you hope way too much from the story about the Hyuga. If Neji was as important as Sasuke storywise you would have a point but it's not -by far- the case.
The Byakugan and Jyuken are very interesting abilities and probably my favorite fighting style in the show but plotwise their importance is null whereas the Sharingan is part of pretty much everything in the show. This fact alone explains why there will always be more about the Sharingan than the Byakugan.

The max potential in the first data book were the same and I was told that the max hadn't changed that much so I assumed that their max potential was still about even, but maybe I was wrong. It could have changed more than I thought. Also it doesn't say anywhere which is strongest. Data book I; I read said that the Hyuuga "are equal in rank of the Uchiha" I believe Hiashi states something about the Hyuuga clan or the byakugan being the strongest twice. If you read my post, Kakashi has also said it once. So it wasn't said only once as you imply. Its that both the Uchiha and Hyuuga really believe themselves to be strongest. I'm not saying they're stronger I'm saying I believe in the future that Kishimoto would have them be equal. In fact I also mentioned that at this time that the Sasuke is stronger, because he is amain character and Neji isn't and that would continue to happen till Sasuke has a lesser role. probably near the end of the Manga.

I don't think you read my whole post, because if you had you would have realized I said that I may be looking to much into the story and putting too much emphasis on some areas. Never do I state that one is stronger than the other I state I believe at some point in the future possible near the end the clans will be equal. Now I'm talking about the future near the end of naruto so unless you can predict the future I don't think you can say it's not opinion. Sabaku didn't disagree that one could come up with different outcomes in the story if you look you place emphasis on certain parts, he just thinks I'm putting too much emphasis an different areas, which I agree I might be, but then people may not be placing enough emphasis on certain areas. You can base probability on facts and come up with an opinion, which I did. I used quotes, but like I said the max potential was from word of mouth from my friend so my data has some flaws. Now here's some of the things in Data book 2...but Data book 2 is flawed as well, because the story has progressed even further since it was written. So now we have to base it on opinions. I mean currently I think that Sasuke is stronger, but one argue differently.

Spoiler:

Uchiha Sasuke

Ninjutsu: 3
Taijutsu: 2.5
Genjutsu: 1.5
Intelligence: 2.5
Power: 3
Speed: 3.5
Stamina: 3
Hand Seals: 3

Hyuga Neji

Ninjutsu: 3.5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 2
Intelligence: 3
Power: 2.5
Speed: 4
Stamina: 2.5
Hand Seals: 3

If you based your reasoning soley on Data book 2 then Neji is progressing faster than Sasuke, but I wasn't, because I know it's outdated already. I believe currently that Sasuke is stronger. I also mention that I believe that Kishimoto will have the Byakugan and Sharingan be equals, because I think ultimately he wanted to make the 2 BL's Yin and Yang. One is offensive power and the other is defensive power. This means I do believe that the Sharingan is offensively more powerful, but the Byakugan is defensively more powerful. So whereas most wants to make one stronger than the other I want them to be equals. I'm not saying this will definately happen, because I'm not Kishimoto.

[MisaMisa]

Sharingan is best best.Don't forget that many were afraid of the Uchiha clan because of it.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

The max potential in the first data book were the same and I was told that the max hadn't changed that much so I assumed that their max potential was still about even, but maybe I was wrong.

Neji and Sasuke's potential weren't the same. Neji was "only" at 4 whereas both Naruto and Sasuke were maxed out at 5.
You misunderstood the line about the Uchiha and the Hyuga clan. they are of equal status, it isn't about strength at all it's about the fact that they were part of the four Noble clans of Konoha.
Hiashi said his clan was the strongest once during the war, Kakashi never said this. He said the Hyuga is the oldest and most Respectable/Noble clan of Konoha.
Both the first and 2nd Data book states that the Uchiha was the strongest/finest/fearest clan several times. Take a look at the Sharingan/Itachi/Uchiha entries for example.
That's why I said it's not an opinion only : as a clan (ie not bloodline against bloodline or Neji against Sasuke, etc.) the Uchiha were said several times in the Data books to be more powerful than the Hyuga.

One last thing also : the characters's stats aren't meant to be compared with each other, they are meant to show where the strengths and abilities of a ninja lie.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by chaz017

Naw, people will choose to dispute him because this is a forum...and that's what people do in forums.

Obviously, correlating to my point given the fact that he makes his assumptions sound like eventualities and not possibilities. Being in a forum in itself doesn't warrant disputes only.

[bigdave]

Do any of u remember that Curry episode??

When they fought the guy with the thunder weapon. He had a child partner like haku and I don't know who said it in the episode but they said that kids powers are stronger than the sharingan and the byakugan.

Well if its just comparing the two well i would go with the more likely choice of the sharingan

[#ASprek8#]

the byukugan and the sharingan are great in their different ways, it's so difficult to choose one, but i'll go with the sharingan. Cause you can copy other peoples moves and know what are they going to do before they do it .

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by bigdave

Do any of u remember that Curry episode??

that was filler episode. not really part of the plot

[Asianknight82]

Isnt it funny that Mangekyou Sharingan means, Kaleidoscope. Kaleidoscope eyes FTW!!!! XD

[darkjester]

sharingan on my part...

i copy u!!!

plus all the other little cool things about it... and red eyes... come on... I'd look HAWT with red eyes...

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Neji and Sasuke's potential weren't the same. Neji was "only" at 4 whereas both Naruto and Sasuke were maxed out at 5.
You misunderstood the line about the Uchiha and the Hyuga clan. they are of equal status, it isn't about strength at all it's about the fact that they were part of the four Noble clans of Konoha.
Hiashi said his clan was the strongest once during the war, Kakashi never said this. He said the Hyuga is the oldest and most Respectable/Noble clan of Konoha.
Both the first and 2nd Data book states that the Uchiha was the strongest/finest/fearest clan several times. Take a look at the Sharingan/Itachi/Uchiha entries for example.
That's why I said it's not an opinion only : as a clan (ie not bloodline against bloodline or Neji against Sasuke, etc.) the Uchiha were said several times in the Data books to be more powerful than the Hyuga.

One last thing also : the characters's stats aren't meant to be compared with each other, they are meant to show where the strengths and abilities of a ninja lie.

I guess that depends on the translation you read in what Kakashi says. The translation my friend gave me was Kakashi saing that the Hyuuga were the oldest and strongest, but I have seen it translated both ways. English isn't my friends first language since he's from Japan, so maybe he chose the wrong word when he translated it for me.

I'll have to go back and look at the Data books. Sadly the ones I've seen aren't translated very well. Not only that I don't put much faith as some people have in these Data books. Kishimoto has said that he wants to do a complete rewrite of the Data book after Naruto ends and that things in them aren't nec. set in stone until after Naruto ends so somethings will definately change. The Data book is a good source, but shouldn't be the only source.

I went back. The max potential is a 4, but the website I got the max potential had it as a 5 so it confused me. Of course this doesn't mean it's because of Sharingan. CS prob. helped raise his max potential.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I'll admit that Kakashi's MS is the only true new ability we've seen from the Sharingan post-timeskip. That shows that the Sharingan has the power to warp space-time itself. Neji has increased the range of the Byakugan's telescopic vision. Currently, it has a radius with a minimum of about 800m. Neji's other improvements are new jutsu developed by Neji such as Hakke Kuusho, not upgrades of Byakugan itself.



My thoughts are that Sasuke will be central to the plot until he dies or until the end of the manga, which ever comes first. I say this because he is second only to Naruto in terms of importance and development. In either scenario, Neji's strength becomes a moot point. Because by the end of the manga, focus will center on Naruto and final villain, which may very well turn out not to be Sasuke, but this doesn't mean that Byakugan will receive any further attention either.




Exactly. Which is why I prefer ignore such comments for the most part and look at examples of how each bloodline has been used rather than try to decipher what is true and what is false among the characters's statements. Sharingan has been used to defeat a Sannin...twice. Byakugan's biggest accomplishment was probably allowing escape from Kisame's water prison.



Obviously, Oro had no idea of the full capabilities of the Sharingan. If he did, he wouldn't be defeated like he did. And say what you will about Oro's physical body being weakened, he lost in a battle of willpower/genjutsu not a physical battle.



I'll give you the point about Kage Bunshin. But there's still no question that Sharingan allows one to cancel genjutsu. Itachi and Sasuke confirm this when they flat out declare Oro's jutsu to be useless "against their eyes". Oro wasn't even able to catch Itachi in his genjutsu whereas he was able to take Sasuke by surprise, but still was defeated when Sasuke countered it. I'd say if Sharingan can be used to counter a genjustu performed by a Sannin, then it can pretty much be said that it can counter any kind of genjutsu.



Again, it's all well and good to presume that the Byakugan can be used to anticipate attacks based on chakra flow, but Sharingan can also see chakra flow ( although not in the same way Byukugan can), so we can also assume that it has a similar ability.



There's no evidence that Byukugan could see the attack any better. Sharingan can read even the swiftest movements accurately. It is the reflexes of the user that determine whether or not this can be used to an advantage. The same thing can be said of Byakugan. Byakugan's extended sight doesn't give the user the ability to avoid the oncoming threats, only the ability to perceive the threat earlier and more clearly. It's the user's skill that allows defense. That doesn't give the the Byakugan any inherent advantage in defense.

Spoiler:

As for Kakashi's Rasengan being weaker than Naruto's. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a flaw in Sharingan's copying techinque. It could be a result of Naruto's abundant chakra, or his improvement through training. We don't even know if Kakashi copied the justu with Sharingan. He could've been taught the natural way from Yondaime for all we know. Afterall, Yondaime was his sensei.

Not every unanswered question is a plot hole. Some elements of the story are left as interpretation to the readers in which they use their own observations to come to a conclusion. For example, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the manga ends without ever showing Naruto becoming Hokage. Sometimes authors' feel it is better to leave the readers with ambiguous situations that the imagination can be used to piece together. That is why I feel that Kishi isn't obligated to tack on additional powers to the Byukugan just for the sake of a minor issue he brought up in the early chapters. If Byukugan was really destined to rival Sharingan I would think Neji would've been matched against Sasuke in the Forest of Death, or the chuunin preliminaries, or the finals. But we never see this. Byukugan was a match meant for Naruto. If a Neji vs. Sasuke (each being represenatives of the full potential of their bloodlines) match were to occur, I'm confident Sasuke would be the clear winner. Naruto ( and possibly Itachi) are probably the only characters that will be allowed to match Sasuke.



Naruto never promised to change the Hyuuga clan for Neji. He merely stated that if Neji was dissatisfied with the Hyuuga clan's traditions, then he would have the power to change them once he became Hokage. He was trying to show that he didn't believe in predetermined fate, not making a promise.



I didn't say members of the Hyuuga clan couldn't grow in importance. But becoming equals in strength to the Uchiha clan is not the only way these characters can grow in importance to the story. For example, Hinata might grow to be a inspirational and possibly even romantic influence to Naruto, but might not gain any abilities in regards to strength.

Well I was already talking in hypotheticals so I don't don't think we are disputing each other, just discussing what's more likely to happen and what's not. I don't know I think we're just comparing and contrasting our views on different areas, especially since it's just a few areas we disagreed with. For example, I disagree with you saying that Naruto said he would not change the Hyuuga clan. As I recall he states that he will get rid of the notion of branch and main family of the Hyuuga once he became Hokage, but maybe I'm wrong.

Anyways I think we can move on to something else that's been on my mind about Byakugan and Sharingan. Both clans specifically Neji and Itachi has said something similar to the effect that their eyes cannot be fooled. In Itachi's case I guess he means that the Saringan allows him to resist genjutsu. Do you think the byakugan would have any defensive mechanisms against genjutsu?

[Kotengu]

I was looking back on everything I've actually seen happen in the manga with sharingan and byakugan, and in the end I think sharingan is a little bit better for surprise fights, but vs eachother, byakugan might end up on top.

First Sharingan sees AND copies movements before/during realtime events. This alone would tecnically make anything possible to do with enough practice (cept bloodline). But the user has a lot of limitations like elemental afinites, chakra supply, and bodily training. Sarutobi learned all konoha jutsu and he didn't have sharingan, so. . . the only REAL advantage would be greater combat efficency.

Byakugan can see THRU everything (cept kagebushin. . .WTF?) That means he can see all consealed weapons, traps, and hidden jutsu activations you try to do. When you eliminate the surprise from a ninja battle the advantage becomes rediculous. Not to mention it gives you automatic increase in chakra control. I'm personally surprised that byakugan users stick mainly to taijutsu (as far as I've seen). If they didn't they would rock house.


In the end Byakugan would be more fun as I would be able to see and know finer details than sharingan, I would proly be able to use all elemental afinites with minimal practice, as I could watch perfectly as to how they are done. And I could come up with much cooler stuff than Kaiten if I was able to emit chakra from everywhere on my body. Pluss x-ray vision man!

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

Anyways I think we can move on to something else that's been on my mind about Byakugan and Sharingan. Both clans specifically Neji and Itachi has said something similar to the effect that their eyes cannot be fooled. In Itachi's case I guess he means that the Saringan allows him to resist genjutsu. Do you think the byakugan would have any defensive mechanisms against genjutsu?

It's not a wild theory to suggest that Byakugan might offer genjutsu resistance. But if it did, I don't think it would offer complete immunity as not even Sharingan offers that. If it's anything like Sharingan, Byukugan's resistance would vary based on the skill of the person. Itachi has the highest level of Sharingan seen and therefore his resistance to genjutsu also seems to be extremely high. However, Kakashi and Sasuke pre-timeskip were nowhere strong enough to resist Itachi's high level genjutsu despite also having Sharingan. I imagine it would be the same thing for a Byakugan user, an advanced enough genjutsu could still affect them.

Originally Posted by Kotengu

I was looking back on everything I've actually seen happen in the manga with sharingan and byakugan, and in the end I think sharingan is a little bit better for surprise fights, but vs eachother, byakugan might end up on top. First Sharingan sees AND copies movements before/during realtime events. This alone would tecnically make anything possible to do with enough practice (cept bloodline). But the user has a lot of limitations like elemental afinites, chakra supply, and bodily training. Sarutobi learned all konoha jutsu and he didn't have sharingan, so. . . the only REAL advantage would be greater combat efficency.

That's all a matter of the Sharingan user's skill level. Those limitations don't apply to everyone.

Spoiler:

The elemental chakra limit for example, it's said most jounin are able to use at least 2. Kakashi has been shown to use 3, he or other ninja might be able to use more than that.

Skill level also determines the advantage of copying techniques. A skilled enough Sharingan user can copy and use the opponent's own jutsu against them almost instantly, this is how Kakashi defeated Zabuza in their first fight. We have seen a lot of abilites the Sharingan would have no way of copying though. This aspect of Shaingan isn't nearly as impressive as it was at the beginning of the manga.

Really, when you bring limits of skill level into question it skews the debate (even though I realize this thread was originally created to compare the bloodlines based on personal preference, not how they'd do in combat). A jounin Byakugan user would almost certainly pwn a two-tomoe Sharingan rookie. But this wouldn't be because Byakugan has advantage over the Sharingan, it's because of the difference in skill between the opponents. When you talk about Byakugan vs. Sharingan shouldn't we assume both bloodlines can be used to full effect? That means you'd assume that the Sharingan user can copy as well as Kakashi, have MS and genjutsu resistance like Itachi, etc and that the Byakugan user can use all the same abilites displayed by Neji and Hiashi.

In the end Byakugan would be more fun as I would be able to see and know finer details than sharingan, I would proly be able to use all elemental afinites with minimal practice, as I could watch perfectly as to how they are done. And I could come up with much cooler stuff than Kaiten if I was able to emit chakra from everywhere on my body. Pluss x-ray vision man!

Have fun with the x-ray vision, but Byakugan doesn't make elemental manipulation any easier or grant the ability to emit chakra from everywhere on the body. Those abilites come from training .

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Neji and Sasuke's potential weren't the same. Neji was "only" at 4 whereas both Naruto and Sasuke were maxed out at 5.
You misunderstood the line about the Uchiha and the Hyuga clan. they are of equal status, it isn't about strength at all it's about the fact that they were part of the four Noble clans of Konoha.
Hiashi said his clan was the strongest once during the war, Kakashi never said this. He said the Hyuga is the oldest and most Respectable/Noble clan of Konoha.
Both the first and 2nd Data book states that the Uchiha was the strongest/finest/fearest clan several times. Take a look at the Sharingan/Itachi/Uchiha entries for example.
That's why I said it's not an opinion only : as a clan (ie not bloodline against bloodline or Neji against Sasuke, etc.) the Uchiha were said several times in the Data books to be more powerful than the Hyuga.

One last thing also : the characters's stats aren't meant to be compared with each other, they are meant to show where the strengths and abilities of a ninja lie.

I noticed that some people have a max potential of 4, but in one area of their skill level it surpasses the max potential...is the max potential in the data book based on everything that they can do as a whole? So if they can only use taijutsu such as Lee, Lee's max potential in taijutsu may be a 5, but his overall potential is lower, because it's limited to just taijutsu?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I went back. The max potential is a 4, but the website I got the max potential had it as a 5 so it confused me. Of course this doesn't mean it's because of Sharingan. CS prob. helped raise his max potential.

Potential has nothing to do with CS or the like (which are not taken in count, Gates, CS, Kyubi, etc. aren't considerated in the stats). Potential is how much characters's strength can grow

Do you think the byakugan would have any defensive mechanisms against genjutsu?

I don't think so :

Spoiler:

Contrary to the Ninjutsu Bunshin, Genjutsu doesn't merely affect sight. It affects the brain directly. If anything the ability to see everyting is a weakness against sight-related Genjutsu.
In the other hand the incredible control of the Hyuga over their chakra might be extremely useful to defend themself against Genjutsu since they seem to be able to control chakra inside their body better than almost anyone else. Taking back the control over the chakra in your brain is probably way easier when you are a Hyuga.

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I noticed that some people have a max potential of 4, but in one area of their skill level it surpasses the max potential...is the max potential in the data book based on everything that they can do as a whole? So if they can only use taijutsu such as Lee, Lee's max potential in taijutsu may be a 5, but his overall potential is lower, because it's limited to just taijutsu?

The potential stat is meant to show overall possible growth and isn't related to the other stats.

[tkdtiger]

cool thanks for the info : )

[Asianknight82]

I think Jiraiya would want Byakugan so that he can peep through girls clothing XD

[Crovax]

Sharingan

Spoiler for Naruto episode 131:

Because it's a great excuse to kill your best friend, other than pure malice.

[Yukinari_Sasaki]

Spoiler:

The Sharingan is better then the byaakugan. The Sahringan has different levels with the Mangekyou being the best. Only two people have ever done it, Itachi and Kakashi, while the byaakugan is done by many. The amngekyou is far better then the Sharingan that Sasuke gets when he fights Naruto.

[tkdtiger]

I prefer the Sharikugan ; ) Can you imagine how strong the clan would be if they joined up together and it evolved into a new BL with all the abilities of both the Sharingan and the Byakugan...