Hyouka - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers)

[Kairin]

This thread is aimed at first time viewers of Hyouka and its purpose is to allow spoiler free speculation and theories to be aired. Having them in a central location may help focus the discussion instead of spreading speculation over the various episode discussion threads. If you are knowledgeable of the manga and wish to speculate or discuss theories, then please do not post in this thread (use the Hyouka - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Hyouka readers only) thread) and do not give away any spoilers in this thread!

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[Skane]

Well... I guess I will begin by putting forth the elephant in the room question for Episode 8 & 9.

Why don't they ask the scriptwriter who the murderer is? She's not in a coma, and Irisu is in contact with her, so...

Cheers.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Skane

Well... I guess I will begin by putting forth the elephant in the room question for Episode 8 & 9.

Why don't they ask the scriptwriter who the murderer is? She's not in a coma, and Irisu is in contact with her, so...

Cheers.

Well it's definitely a good question to be asking. I really wonder if it's just about Hongou being sick or rather her quitting on the production. Forced into writing a story she didn't want to in a genre she wasn't familiar with for a movie she may not have even voted for (assuming any of this was done while she was not out sick). Of course with the amount of effort she put into it, I'd be surprised if she just gave up. Maybe she wasn't able to figure out who the culprit was. Still maybe possible she didn't care to just give her classmates the answer and if they were going to force her to write the story they should be able to figure out the answer themselves. Possible that she doesn't want to just give them the answer without finishing the story. They've already done a great job wasting a lot of her hard work and if she gave them the answer they'd probably screw that up too.

It is a good question though and probably ties into this whole situation.

[AC-Phoenix]

Since Relentlessflame already pointed to this thread being lonely and unwanted I think its time we actually use it.
e//: Looks like it took me too long to write this up lol - so ignore the first sentence.


EP 8 to 10 Mystery:

Spoiler for Mystery - Theory:

First thing I did after seing the Movie-within movie was making a floor plan(just to get pissed in EP 9 when I saw that they did the same thing...)

I was actually pretty pissed about the character's theories too as one can easily rule them out by just watching 30 seconds of the movie within the movie
(Especially about that blunt Umineko and Phoenix Wright parody...)

So allow me submit this as evidence.(Floor plan I made after watching Movie-in Movie)
http://tinypic.com/r/2ilhf75/6

As you can see there is already a small summary of one of my theories written on the lower right corner - please ignore that for now and continue reading.
I'd also like to add that I forgot marking one of the entrances as bared don't worry though i did recognize it as a closed room in that summary too (note the pic with the cobwebs)

First off we have to analyze the situation:
While the room does certainly have more than one entrance (the window included 4) all other entrances than the door are bared as seen on the picture.
Since I already mentioned Umineko(and Hyouka made a parody to it) I'll thus write facts in red and theories in blue.


The key to the crime scene was locked within the room.

The master key was unguarded the entire time
The office where the key is kept was in everyone's vision no one could have gone there without taking a great risk of being seen. I therefore conclude that the master key is just a plot device to: 1st open the room and 2nd cast suspicion upon Sugimura and Senoue, it is thus not relevant to the murder.

The window was hard to open - thus no way in and out, furthermore the grass there was left undisturbed.

All indoor entrances, bar the door were bared, thus leaving the window and the door as the only ways in and out.

The window was hard to open, and the grass undisturbed, thus I conclude that the window was not used in this crime.

The murder weapon is missing.
None of the characters has clearly outed himself as the detective yet,therefore all the characters are suspicious and Knox 7th has no use atm.

The Knox Decalogue is the key to solve this crime, as stated by the director.

Kitou is dead.




Summarizing all those facts, only two suspects remain - Katsuta and Kounosu.
Please note that there are only three solutions to closed room murders:

1st) It was no locked room in the first place
2nd ) Culprit hid inside and used the confusion of the discovery to slip out, just to appear at a later point pretending to be shocked
3rd) the murder has never happened.


Now lets calmly analyze the situations for both of them:

Kounosu:

She is the only one being able to move down there undetected by Sugimura, therefore a very likely person to pull off the crime.

1st Part - ruling out the master key
It is notable that she was the one having suggested said mansion as a place to look and also knew about the last key being the master key(It was easy to guess though since it had several keys on it)
She was also the one laying out the keys and took hers shortly after the victim.
There were several ways to pull this off, one would be by using the balustrade thus jumping down to the location of the crime. This can however be ruled out as she would have needed the master key to re-lock the door, which is impossible, since there was even a second person going with her later when she got it for the person having opened it.

2nd Part - how she could have done it
The room she searched was the room right above the crime scene. Please note that I already indicated that she might have been in that house before in part 1.

Now please take a look at the picture I posted above again, specifically at the sub-picture where the cobwebs are marked.
While the Cobwebs and the shelf are not important something else in this picture is, namely the food elevator/laundry chute (whichever it is doesn't matter). If we now take a closer look at our suspect we will note that she is rather small and could easily fit in there, we have thus created another entrance to the room.
Another thing is that she is apparently good at climbing (which is btw why it doesn't matter if its a elevator or a chute) I'll consider it a food elevator as it would also explain where she got the knife if the room above was a kitchen.

[can someone please confirm what the crime scene door(not the plan, the door sign) and the room where she has been in(from the plan) are about?]

If it's a laundry chute, she simply brought the knife with her - either way it's a new way inside.
Both Laundry chute and elevator chute would btw explain the script writer's request for a rope able to easily carry a person, which is another hint pointing to her as the culprit.


Katsubata:
Many will now ask how he is able to be the culprit when he had to pass at least two people's possible line of sight - I honestly have to say I don't know. Lets for now say that he managed to sneak by them by an unknown method X, having killed Kaitou

The rest of modus operandi is rather unspectacular.
He simply claimed that the room was locked while it was not.
He was also the one having opened it later using the key - please note here that he first turned the key left and then back to its original position there was no full circle.
It is also not that unusual for a culprit to lie - he and all the witnesses are btw even allowed to lie or interpret things in their own way.


Motive:
We don't really know much about the characters so one can onyl speculate. But considering how a girl might very well be the culprit I'd say its jealously.
She had a crush on him but he had a crush on Yamanishi, thus not wanting to go out with her. Which would make her a typical yandere character.

You can apply a similar theory to Katsuta - he had a crush on Yamanishi but she was interested in Kaitou, so he decided to get rid of his rival.

Conclusion:
While both might very well I tend to say that it was indeed Kounosu. She looked kind of down the entire time and there was also the issue of the script writer asking for a rope that 'can easily carry a person' Plus she seems to be good at climbing.
Its either her or the guy - those characters are the only ones having had a chance to temper with the crime scene enough to make it look like a closed room murder.
And while my first theory was indeed about the guy being the culprit using said method, I now tend to Kounosu having committed the crime as this is the only way to explain the rope and getting rid of the chance of being seen by anyone while getting to the crime scene.
Yes - the chute is easy to miss, and something most people will subconsciously dismiss, as you can see I didn't even mark it on the picture as I only noticed that one could go through there when I looked at the picture again for making my theory.

Quod erat demonstrandum. - The prosecution rests

Edit: It goes without saying that Kounosu has locked the room and went back through the chute she used to enter the room.

Edit 2:
Another thing we should take not of is the severed arm, which is imho best to ignore, as the amount of blood the scriptwriter inteded does not point incline that the arm was meant to be used in the first place and is probably a mental fart of the prop team.
Other then that it could be the cause of death.

An additional option includding the arm would bee that it is fake in the first place and Kaitou jsut faked his death, that would however beat the purpose of the rope , so I suggest just ingoring that arm.

In the other thread someone also mentioned that Konousu is a small girl while kaitou was the sporrt-type. This does not change anything regarding my theory as he must have been pretty surprised when she emerged from that chute. Another fact is that the victim knew his killer and probably trusted her.

Feel free to comment

[Hyper]

It occurs to me that what if the movie so far is another "Hyouka"? Meaning it has a hidden message from the author. Have no idea nor evidence to support this theory though.

[Hiroi Sekai]

I did post a theory of my own on the other thread, if anyone wants to dissect it you're welcome to.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Humour me if you all would:

1. "Kounosu silently lowers a secured rope from her window down the building and climbs down."

- Seems impossible because she'd be spotted by the others, right? Look back to the last episode, where they show the building before going in. There's a spot before where the building protrudes out that could be hidden from everyone's sight.

2. "She steps in from the lower level of that area, where the window was already opened."

- The grass was only checked directly outside of Kaitou's window, so it's plausible that the other parts might not have been untouched. Also, as they check each room on Kaitou's side before reaching the end, the two rooms they first check have open windows.

3. "She sneaks behind Kaitou and silently kills him."

- The fact that the writer wanted minimal blood implies that the murder method was a non-bloody one (nothing like a stabbing). Also, no strangulation burns are present, and a knife wound would have created more blood, especially with the severed arm to include. Add to that the fact that nobody heard the murder despite being decently close in a creaky old building.

4. "Kounosu then proceeds to cut off Kaitou's arm post-mortem and create the locked room mystery."

- Once Kaitou was dead, misdirection was required. Note how there isn't any blood between the body and the severed arm. If the arm had been cut off before death, not only would there have been loud screaming, there would have been involuntary muscle reactions, which would have flung blood everywhere. Kounosa carefully placed the arm in the proper place to make it seem like part of the murder.

In order to create the locked room, Kounosu then swapped her key for Kaitou's and placed it near his severed arm. She then locks the door from the inside (maybe the key wasn't even needed for this), then escapes out the trapdoor next to the safe, which is probably connected right back to the room she originally entered from, where the rope was waiting for her again. A stage generally has an upstage and a downstage (where actors rise up to the stage from or drop out of sight from). Here is what a proscenium stage typically looks like- matches the floor plan pretty well, no? Even when Kaitou first enters and stomps on the floor, there's a hollow sound that suggests there's a connected underground portion. "Why not sneak in that way?" you may ask. The trapdoor was likely closed, and opening it would make a lot of noise, much like the window. That wouldn't be a concern after the murder though.

5. "What points you to Kounosu, and what was the motive?"

- That's just one possible modus operandi. What points me to Kounosu was the tip that said she had exceptional ability in climbing, and she was the only one that went upstairs from Kaitou's side, while the others went off in pairs in the opposite direction (Episode 8). "But that could have been anyone who ended up in her position since the keys were all laid out!". Watch carefully: Kaitou grabs the first key, then Kounosa is already reaching out towards the keys. Whichever Kaitou picked, she could have matched it. She also seems to have strong knowledge of how buildings like this were laid out. As for the motive, it's not really something that can be extensively established with the few facts we have on hand. I wish I could say that it was a personal hatred from a connecting event prior to the murder, but the film simply starts with everyone heading to the building and suggests there's nothing really between them. Ergo, I'm kind of pointed towards the potential that Kaitou was holding something she wanted, or maybe that locked safe had something in it. I can't really compose anything else at the moment. Maybe the target was never even planned, but Kaitou died because he happened to be in that very room.

Seriously, don't be afraid to dissect this and point out everything that could be wrong. I want to tweak it to potentially find the right answer.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I did post a theory of my own on the other thread, if anyone wants to dissect it you're welcome to.

Trapdoor: I'm not sure this even is a trapdoor, I also doubt a trap door would lead back up to her room.

Window: As I've stated in my own theory the window is irrelevantto this case.
While your theory sounds plausible at first you have to take note of the fact that they told us in episode 9 that the grass was meant to be left undisturbed,so no one entered through the ground - which does, if you want to leave the window in only leave your version without her touching the ground.
This is however no good either, as there are at least two problems with your theory.

1st) The window was pretty hard to open, this was shown by one of the taller boys trying to do it and still having a hard time, itss very likely that no one has opened it in a very long time (btw also stated by oreki). Also don't forget the grass, so the only way would be climbing directly through the window without touching the grass, otherwise it would get cracked.

2nd) You forgot about the rope.
No matter how you look at it - there is no way she could have hid that rope again before the discovery. So the Guy having opeened the window would have seen the rope - it would have even hit his face.
If a simple pull could have loosened it enough to get it down no one would have been able to climb down using it.

Blood and Arm:
I'm not even sure the severed arm was intended by the author, I suspect that the rest of the team found its cool and added that, as the author requested just a small amount of blood while a huge amount had to be made in the end, so its most likely that the murder weapon wasn't supposed to be taken out of the victims body.
Nevertheless we have to accept the facts and those are that the arm got severed, which brings us back to my two prime suspects as they are the only ones that would have heard him screaming.


Still I think you are not completely off as your theory and my own have some important things in common, like the room never been closed in the first place - andd that one would need the rope to pull it off.
Our theories start to differ at the point where we talk where she entered the room.
The only way I do know is that my theory has opened up another entry to into the room without disturbing the grass or opening the door.

[kari-no-sugata]

I like the following idea a lot:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Supposedly, Hongou was following the Knox rules for writing mystery fiction. This means that the culprit has to be someone mentioned in the first part of the story. So, a seventh person should be ruled out.

...Or is it? Because there is also a cameraman there, and there's a guy doing the voiceover who is probably the same person. We don't get to see him, but it's possible that he's actually meant to "be" there in the video. The camera is shaky; we hear his footsteps as he goes to focus on the table. The murder takes place during the time the camera isn't rolling. He would see which rooms everyone went to and could have taken the master key. Would he have been able to commit the murder unnoticed?

But I don't know if that would be enough to qualify for the "The blind spot of 10,000 people" .

A couple of thoughts:

This is specifically a movie script and not a novel, so "tricks" like the cameraman being the culprit are possible, particularly when you consider how involved the cameraman was - more like a 7th person than an omnipotent or fly-on-the-wall viewpoint.

Some things will be red herrings (in terms of solving the mystery) and some wont be. For example, the rope might be part of the second half and not part of how the murder was done. As others have mentioned, I think the "sealed room murder" is quite possibly a red herring too - or rather, it's more to confuse the characters within the movie and the viewers.

One of Holmes's famous expressions is "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". If none of the suspects could have safely done the murder then it must be someone else. All you have to do is realise that the cameraman is a valid "someone else".

There's also the meta-mystery about why Hongou hasn't completed the script and why they haven't asked her. I think she is partially getting a bit of revenge upon her classmates - the ones who forced who to take on the most difficult job and tied her hands in all sorts of ways in terms of the plot/setting. I'm not saying she faking the illness but more like after falling ill she realised she had a chance to get a bit of revenge.

I'm guessing that "The blind spot of 10,000 people" is what the final title of the movie will be - I guess it's a bit of a poetic expression. I think "the cameraman is the murderer" is a very nice and simple yet daring solution that fits this potential title very well and also allows Houtarou to look very cool by coming up with it.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

I like the following idea a lot:


A couple of thoughts:

This is specifically a movie script and not a novel, so "tricks" like the cameraman being the culprit are possible, particularly when you consider how involved the cameraman was - more like a 7th person than an omnipotent or fly-on-the-wall viewpoint.

Some things will be red herrings (in terms of solving the mystery) and some wont be. For example, the rope might be part of the second half and not part of how the murder was done. As others have mentioned, I think the "sealed room murder" is quite possibly a red herring too - or rather, it's more to confuse the characters within the movie and the viewers.

One of Holmes's famous expressions is "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". If none of the suspects could have safely done the murder then it must be someone else. All you have to do is realise that the cameraman is a valid "someone else".

There's also the meta-mystery about why Hongou hasn't completed the script and why they haven't asked her. I think she is partially getting a bit of revenge upon her classmates - the ones who forced who to take on the most difficult job and tied her hands in all sorts of ways in terms of the plot/setting. I'm not saying she faking the illness but more like after falling ill she realised she had a chance to get a bit of revenge.

I'm guessing that "The blind spot of 10,000 people" is what the final title of the movie will be - I guess it's a bit of a poetic expression. I think "the cameraman is the murderer" is a very nice and simple yet daring solution that fits this potential title very well and also allows Houtarou to look very cool by coming up with it.

Seing something out of the camera perspective does not count as 'introduced'. While I agree that the Camera man is the blind spot of probably everyone´, it would still contradict the first Knox rule to claim that it has been the narrator without properly introducing him, thus at least once showing a mirror image to show that the camera man is actually a person within the story.

Another problem is Knox 8th:
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Where have they shown a clue that the camera man might be the culprit? There is not even a clue that he is a person at all - no one even talks or looks at him/her.

If anything the camera man would be the detective btw.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Trapdoor: I'm not sure this even is a trapdoor, I also doubt a trap door would lead back up to her room.

Window: As I've stated in my own theory the window is irrelevantto this case.
While your theory sounds plausible at first you have to take note of the fact that they told us in episode 9 that the grass was meant to be left undisturbed,so no one entered through the ground - which does, if you want to leave the window in only leave your version without her touching the ground.
This is however no good either, as there are at least two problems with your theory.

1st) The window was pretty hard to open, this was shown by one of the taller boys trying to do it and still having a hard time, itss very likely that no one has opened it in a very long time (btw also stated by oreki). Also don't forget the grass, so the only way would be climbing directly through the window without touching the grass, otherwise it would get cracked.

2nd) You forgot about the rope.
No matter how you look at it - there is no way she could have hid that rope again before the discovery. So the Guy having opeened the window would have seen the rope - it would have even hit his face.
If a simple pull could have loosened it enough to get it down no one would have been able to climb down using it.

Blood and Arm:
I'm not even sure the severed arm was intended by the author, I suspect that the rest of the team found its cool and added that, as the author requested just a small amount of blood while a huge amount had to be made in the end, so its most likely that the murder weapon wasn't supposed to be taken out of the victims body.
Nevertheless we have to accept the facts and those are that the arm got severed, which brings us back to my two prime suspects as they are the only ones that would have heard him screaming.


Still I think you are not completely off as your theory and my own have some important things in common, like the room never been closed in the first place - andd that one would need the rope to pull it off.
Our theories start to differ at the point where we talk where she entered the room.
The only way I do know is that my theory has opened up another entry to into the room without disturbing the grass or opening the door.

Thanks for the dissection, it helps a bit with perspectives. I fear you may have read a few things I wrote incorrectly though, might I check and make sure you read it the way I intended?

Trapdoor: If that's not a stage trapdoor beside the open safe near Kaitou's body, I'm actually curious to see what you think it might be (since I'm having trouble seeing it as something else now). Also, let's say it was a trapdoor. I didn't say it would conveniently lead back upstairs to her room, just that it would connect to the room she came in from.

Window/Ground: So I'll go over my theory again. Kounosu slipped a rope from a window on the far side of the building, where a protruded portion of the building blocked her from view (Episode 8, before they enter). She didn't enter directly from Kaitou's window. She leaves the rope hanging there and slips into an open window directly below her (when they check the first two empty rooms, the windows are open). She then closes the door to that room, sneaks behind Kaitou and silently kills him. Since he's physically huge, she probably took him out with one fierce and deadly blow, but I can't say for sure the method yet.

It's at this point that I question a portion of my theory. If she could trade keys with Kaitou, lock the door and then make it a few rooms over to where she entered from, then she wouldn't need a trapdoor (the room was still hidden in the singular hallway). My guess is that she either just walked back whilst leaving Kaitou's room locked, or she heard/saw something that didn't agree with her. She would then have to lock it from the inside and then use the trapdoor to secretly get back to the original room without being spotted. Getting rid of the rope would be as simple as pulling it back up once she got back to her floor. The ground would be untouched the entire time nonetheless.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Seing something out of the camera perspective does not count as 'introduced'. While I agree that the Camera man is the blind spot of probably everyone´, it would still contradict the first Knox rule to claim that it has been the narrator without properly introducing him, thus at least once showing a mirror image to show that the camera man is actually a person within the story.

Another problem is Knox 8th:
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Where have they shown a clue that the camera man might be the culprit? There is not even a clue that he is a person at all - no one even talks or looks at him/her.

If anything the camera man would be the detective btw.

There are some issues with the cameraman being the killer, but I still find it to be an interesting possibility. If we try to apply Hongou into the story she's written and consider that her representative in the story is the killer then it might fit. Someone who has been utterly ignored and yet given a hard job (having to carry that camera around). If the vote was cast while she was gone then it has an interesting similarity. The killer the characters wouldn't expect being the person they don't pay attention to.

But it would be a tough thing to take since there hasn't been a distinction made. Until the camera person is identified have to treat it like the camera doesn't exist for the characters.

There isn't much to say whether a camera person went along with them. The group going there for research, but don't necessarily need a camera for that. Wanting a seventh person could mean a character for being the camera person, not needed early but near the end for the reveal. But other possible reasons so not the strongest evidence.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Thanks for the dissection, it helps a bit with perspectives. I fear you may have read a few things I wrote incorrectly though, might I check and make sure you read it the way I intended?

Trapdoor: If that's not a stage trapdoor beside the open safe near Kaitou's body, I'm actually curious to see what you think it might be (since I'm having trouble seeing it as something else now). Also, let's say it was a trapdoor. I didn't say it would conveniently lead back upstairs to her room, just that it would connect to the room she came in from.

I have no idea what else it might be - I have a more basic problem with it being applied to the crime, namely that the trap door would defeat the rope's purpose entirely. You would simply no longer need the rope for anything. The and her where the only ones going alone, she could have simply stated that it is saver to go in groups of two(At least into the same direction), so she wouldn't have needed a key at all - any theory involving Kounosu as the culprit also has the crime scene's door locked.
So even if she would come back from there alone, she could have simply claimed that she went into the two waiting rooms while he went to the crime scene alone.

No one would have questioned the credability of her words since the room was locked from inside, without her having a key. (She would allso not be able to swap her key for his in this variant, as she wouldn't have had one; Moreover even if she took one she could have given it to the victim in order to have no key in the end.)

So as you can see the trapdoor eliminates the rope; further explaination regarding how it eliminates the rope exactly below.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

Window/Ground: So I'll go over my theory again. Kounosu slipped a rope from a window on the far side of the building, where a protruded portion of the building blocked her from view (Episode 8, before they enter). She didn't enter directly from Kaitou's window. She leaves the rope hanging there and slips into an open window directly below her (when they check the first two empty rooms, the windows are open). She then closes the door to that room, sneaks behind Kaitou and silently kills him. Since he's physically huge, she probably took him out with one fierce and deadly blow, but I can't say for sure the method yet.

I did indeed misunderstand you there if you really meant that she entereed through a separate window. (probably the ones in the waiting rooms, right?)
Even then, then problem with the rope not being there anymore still remains.

She had to made sure that the rope was belayed enough to hold her - so simply removing it won't work. Another thing regarding this is btw said 'trapdoor' - there is, as you've stated no way it can be connected to a room above her.

The school I went to had an emergency shaft in it's computer room, which was on the ceiling leading to the first floor.
A 'trapdoor' like it was seen in the anime would lead DOWN though, which brings us to the next part.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

It's at this point that I question a portion of my theory. If she could trade keys with Kaitou, lock the door and then make it a few rooms over to where she entered from, then she wouldn't need a trapdoor (the room was still hidden in the singular hallway). My guess is that she either just walked back whilst leaving Kaitou's room locked, or she heard/saw something that didn't agree with her. She would then have to lock it from the inside and then use the trapdoor to secretly get back to the original room without being spotted. Getting rid of the rope would be as simple as pulling it back up once she got back to her floor. The ground would be untouched the entire time nonetheless.

As stated above a trapdoor on the floor would lead DOWN - probably to the prompt box. You can assume that the other side of the theather has the same layout, meaning it would also have a trapdoor connecting the room with the prompt box. (it being a theather is btw why I think that it has a prompt box)

This is however a contradiction to the rope and the room she choose. please not that it was her laying the keys out, placing said key close to Kaitou, and choosing hers only after she was sure he would really take said key. She was also the one having proposed the theather so she knew how it would look like inside from the very beginning.
Which brings us to the part of the contradiction:
You don't need the rope if you use the trapdoor as you'd already have a secret connection between the two rooms on the far end.
So she could have just taken the key someone else took and walked right through the trap door.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

There are some issues with the cameraman being the killer, but I still find it to be an interesting possibility. If we try to apply Hongou into the story she's written and consider that her representative in the story is the killer then it might fit. Someone who has been utterly ignored and yet given a hard job (having to carry that camera around). If the vote was cast while she was gone then it has an interesting similarity. The killer the characters wouldn't expect being the person they don't pay attention to.

But it would be a tough thing to take since there hasn't been a distinction made. Until the camera person is identified have to treat it like the camera doesn't exist for the characters.

There isn't much to say whether a camera person went along with them. The group going there for research, but don't necessarily need a camera for that. Wanting a seventh person could mean a character for being the camera person, not needed early but near the end for the reveal. But other possible reasons so not the strongest evidence.

Sorry, my mistake I forgot to mention that it also contradicts Knox 1

The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow. The mysterious stranger who turns up from nowhere in particular, from a ship as often as not, whose existence the reader had no means of suspecting from the outset, spoils the play altogether.

The second part of the rule mainly says that the theere must be no mystification in the attitude of the killer. (Quote from umineko wiki; true since Agatha C has never broken his rules)
- being ingored entirely the whole time definitely falls under this description.

Please note that we are talking about a movie, not a novel here, so 'his view' is to be used as an analogy to 'his thoughts'.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I have no idea what else it might be - I have a more basic problem with it being applied to the crime, namely that the trap door would defeat the rope's purpose entirely. You would simply no longer need the rope for anything. The and her where the only ones going alone, she could have simply stated that it is saver to go in groups of two(At least into the same direction), so she wouldn't have needed a key at all - any theory involving Kounosu as the culprit also has the crime scene's door locked.
So even if she would come back from there alone, she could have simply claimed that she went into the two waiting rooms while he went to the crime scene alone.

No one would have questioned the credability of her words since the room was locked from inside, without her having a key. (She would allso not be able to swap her key for his in this variant, as she wouldn't have had one; Moreover even if she took one she could have given it to the victim in order to have no key in the end.)

So as you can see the trapdoor eliminates the rope; further explaination regarding how it eliminates the rope exactly below.



I did indeed misunderstand you there if you really meant that she entereed through a separate window. (probably the ones in the waiting rooms, right?)
Even then, then problem with the rope not being there anymore still remains.

She had to made sure that the rope was belayed enough to hold her - so simply removing it won't work. Another thing regarding this is btw said 'trapdoor' - there is, as you've stated no way it can be connected to a room above her.

The school I went to had an emergency shaft in it's computer room, which was on the ceiling leading to the first floor.
A 'trapdoor' like it was seen in the anime would lead DOWN though, which brings us to the next part.



As stated above a trapdoor on the floor would lead DOWN - probably to the prompt box. You can assume that the other side of the theather has the same layout, meaning it would also have a trapdoor connecting the room with the prompt box. (it being a theather is btw why I think that it has a prompt box)

This is however a contradiction to the rope and the room she choose. please not that it was her laying the keys out, placing said key close to Kaitou, and choosing hers only after she was sure he would really take said key. She was also the one having proposed the theather so she knew how it would look like inside from the very beginning.
Which brings us to the part of the contradiction:
You don't need the rope if you use the trapdoor as you'd already have a secret connection between the two rooms on the far end.
So she could have just taken the key someone else took and walked right through the trap door.




Sorry, my mistake I forgot to mention that it also contradicts Knox 1

The second part of the rule mainly says that the theere must be no mystification in the attitude of the killer. (Quote from umineko wiki; true since Agatha C has never broken his rules)
- being ingored entirely the whole time definitely falls under this description.

Please note that we are talking about a movie, not a novel here, so 'his view' is to be used as an analogy to 'his thoughts'.

I still think we're seeing two slightly different scenarios here.

The rope wouldn't be brought about. She needs to rappel down from the second story, leave the rope tied, and return to it later to climb back up to the second story.

And I am aware of how trapdoors work. The trapdoor would only be used if Kounosu needed to get from Kaitou's room to the room where the rope was waiting for her without being spotted.

Also, Knox's first rule doesn't specifically mean there can't be mystification. If there's no mystery involved with a criminal, then where the need for deduction? It basically states that we must be able to feel what the criminal feels. We have to feel like their act of murder was justified, so as to be able to accept how everything played out.

[justsomeguy]

I don't think that the cameraman can be considered a serious possibility. Besides violating the rules of mysteries, he also faces the same problem of his movements being seen by the other characters, and pulling off a sealed room situation. It's not a resolution at all.

Regarding keys: If keys are important and not a red herring, then it's possible that the killer had the key to the room. There were six loose keys and a ring of four master keys after all, maybe one of the loose ones was a master key. However, considering how they were distributed, having both the killer and Kaitou grab the correct keys would be too dependent on luck.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I still think we're seeing two slightly different scenarios here.

The rope wouldn't be brought about. She needs to rappel down from the second story, leave the rope tied, and return to it later to climb back up to the second story.

And I am aware of how trapdoors work. The trapdoor would only be used if Kounosu needed to get from Kaitou's room to the room where the rope was waiting for her without being spotted.

I understood that part - the problem here is that we only have a short gap between the discovery and the actual crime Plus look at the floor plan again - the window is not in Kounosu's room but in a corridor - and using her own window was already ruled out by Oreki.
Don't misunderstand, I can't rule your theory out atm, I can only say that it would defeat the purpose of the rope and her choosing the room aboove his in the first place.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

I don't think that the cameraman can be considered a serious possibility. Besides violating the rules of mysteries, he also faces the same problem of his movements being seen by the other characters, and pulling off a sealed room situation. It's not a resolution at all.

Regarding keys: If keys are important and not a red herring, then it's possible that the killer had the key to the room. There were six loose keys and a ring of four master keys after all, maybe one of the loose ones was a master key. However, considering how they were distributed, having both the killer and Kaitou grab the correct keys would be too dependent on luck.

Master key is a bad term for this special key. master keyring would be better as there as the number of keys on it should fit the number of keys distributed. - So only all the keys togerther make it a master key. And yeah, I know thats not what a master key is supposed to, this is how its depicted here though. We also don't know if master key really is the 100% correct translation of what she said.


We should think a bit outside of the box though, namely if there is a way to lock the door from outside. using the rope.

Edit:
I do in the meantime know for sure that, thee thing neext to the save is not a trap door, justsomeguy pointed out that there is a hole in the wall right above that door - so it just fell off from there.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Master key is a bad term for this special key. master keyring would be better as there as the number of keys on it should fit the number of keys distributed. - So only all the keys togerther make it a master key. And yeah, I know thats not what a master key is supposed to, this is how its depicted here though. We also don't know if master key really is the 100% correct translation of what she said.

It's either a set of duplicate keys making up the master set, which would explain the difference in number of keys, but make having the right people grabbing the correct keys harder; or a set of identical keys that can each open all doors, which makes grabbing the right keys slightly easier, but having four identical keys on one ring is ridiculous. Regardless in either situation, if the keys are important then that means the killer had one. But if they're not important, then the killer did not.

If the killer had a key, I'm inclined to think s/he used it to lock the door on the way out, rather than get in, since it's unlikely Kaitou would lock himself inside a room (the "he locked himself in for protection" idea lacks support).

.

We should think a bit outside of the box though, namely if there is a way to lock the door from outside. using the rope.

If the killer had a duplicate/master key, then s/he can just lock the door on the way out. But that would give away the existence of the extra key, and not explain the rope.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I understood that part - the problem here is that we only have a short gap between the discovery and the actual crime Plus look at the floor plan again - the window is not in Kounosu's room but in a corridor - and using her own window was already ruled out by Oreki.
Don't misunderstand, I can't rule your theory out atm, I can only say that it would defeat the purpose of the rope and her choosing the room aboove his in the first place.

I can definitely respect your points, but allow me to elaborate to perhaps make sense of what's troubling you.

First I'd like to challenge your theory that the time between the crime and discovery was really THAT short. Sure, in the film it's almost immediate, but consider it in actual passing time. It's a cutaway, meaning that it could have been a minute to even several hours if they needed to.

I'd also like to challenge how one would determine which room Kounosu was in. Remember that she got an entire half of the upstairs to herself while two others took the other half. The only other risks to her would be the two downstairs, but note that they were in the opposite half of the building too. Technically, she was alone enough.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I can definitely respect your points, but allow me to elaborate to perhaps make sense of what's troubling you.

First I'd like to challenge your theory that the time between the crime and discovery was really THAT short. Sure, in the film it's almost immediate, but consider it in actual passing time. It's a cutaway, meaning that it could have been a minute to even several hours if they needed to.

I'd also like to challenge how one would determine which room Kounosu was in. Remember that she got an entire half of the upstairs to herself while two others took the other half. The only other risks to her would be the two downstairs, but note that they were in the opposite half of the building too. Technically, she was alone enough.

The purpose of splitting up was to find a room that's free of broken glass to sleep in. Given the size of the theater, looking around one or two rooms each should not take more than 5 minutes.

As for Kounosu, both KyoAni's and the novel's floorplan shows that the only room on the right side of the second floor was the lighting room.

[Skane]

What if Hongou is a pen-name?

Natch.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I can definitely respect your points, but allow me to elaborate to perhaps make sense of what's troubling you.

First I'd like to challenge your theory that the time between the crime and discovery was really THAT short. Sure, in the film it's almost immediate, but consider it in actual passing time. It's a cutaway, meaning that it could have been a minute to even several hours if they needed to.

I'd also like to challenge how one would determine which room Kounosu was in. Remember that she got an entire half of the upstairs to herself while two others took the other half. The only other risks to her would be the two downstairs, but note that they were in the opposite half of the building too. Technically, she was alone enough.

Justsomeguy pretty much explained everything you wanted to know.

The problem I have now though is said chute I used as modus operandi, as I have really not the slightest idea what its original purpose was - its therefore hard to say that one could fit through it for sure.

regarding that extra master key: The number of keys on the keyring seems to match the number of doors.