Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Elestia

No, Mami was entirely not happy. Just because you live doesn't automatically mean that happiness is a given. And she mentions herself that she was not entirely happy with her new life either. In the scene where she was alone with Madoka in episode 3, she was telling her on how she had no time for friends, time for herself, and suffered from loneliness. Which is why she was trying to recruit Sayaka and Madoka into being MG's like her as well.

She even stated that given the chance, when she was on the verge of dying, she had second thoughts about it.

Very strange because I recall Mami saying that she was glad to have the second chance and despite the above issues, she was glad to still be alive as she wouldnt be otherwise.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're deliberately stating that Kyube would deliberately make the wish have a bad side effect, when we have had no evidence of that. No one is questioning that there is some bad stuff, just that the wish was not responsible for that.

If Mami didn't make a wish, she was dead.
If Sayaka didn't make a wish, Kamijou would drop further into despair while Hitomi and Madoka would be dead.
If Kyoko didn't wish, their family would continue to starve, and perhaps the father would grow depressed.

If there are bad results whether you wish or not, then you can hardly place blame on the wish for bad results. The only argument one could make, is that it is more likely this universe just takes a crap on the girls regardless of what they do.

Edit: To sum up, by trying to say, "Hmm, isn't it interesting that they make a wish and bad things happen!?" is making the fallacy correlation without causation. It also ignores bad things happening to people like Hitomi and Madoka, who didn't make wishes, either.

Oh, there's definitely a connection between the wishes and the consequences.

It's no coincidence that Kyubey is only approaching those who are sad, depressed, or downright at the brink of death. We have seen no wishes granted to people who were content with their lives. Indeed, why would one wish for more when they are content with what they already have? No, Kyubey is smarter than that... he knows to seek out those who are dissatisfied with their lives. Kyubey knows those people are the ones who will wish for happiness.

If you want to argue that everyone is sad, then the people Kyubey seeks out are just plain miserable.

The wish itself is responsible for how it is interpreted. Certainly, a lot of the consequences of his wishes were evil, but that is because the wishes themselves were good. All Kyubey does is balance out the scales between happiness and sadness. When you wish for happiness, Kyubey balances with sadness.

The problem with Kyubey is he seems to tip the scales in favor of sadness. Why live a life if you spend your whole life fighting alone? What value is a group of followers if they are mindless zombies? Why would you heal your friend if it made you so miserable? Everyone is miserable because they made a seemingly altruistic wish with an opposite effect.

If Mami had let herself die, she would have been sad. But, she chose to survive. The only way she could have experienced more sadness would be if she were still alive. The transient happiness of surviving that car crash was balanced out by her drawn-out life as a Puella Magi.

In the case of Kyoko, her family was suffering. She wished for her father to have followers, and he was happy for a while. Until he found out - then he killed himself and the rest of his family, balancing out his previous happiness with Kyoko's sadness. But, it's arguable that her sadness far outweighs her father's happiness. Now, Kyoko has let familiars kill people, so they can become witches, and so she can get their Grief Seeds. Are you telling me that if she had not made that wish, society would be happier as a whole?

I will revise your statement into a question: "Why is it that people who wish for good things have bad things happen?" Or another one: "Why is it that Kyubey only approaches those who are already suffering?"

Randomly, this leads into another theory: Maybe witches are people who have wished for BAD things to happen, while Puella Magi are people who have wished for GOOD things to happen.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Elestia

No, Mami was entirely not happy. Just because you live doesn't automatically mean that happiness is a given. And she mentions herself that she was not entirely happy with her new life either. In the scene where she was alone with Madoka in episode 3, she was telling her on how she had no time for friends, time for herself, and suffered from loneliness. Which is why she was trying to recruit Sayaka and Madoka into being MG's like her as well.

She even stated that given the chance, when she was on the verge of dying, she had second thoughts about it.

Watch episode 3 again. Mami states that she was glad for a second chance. She only states that she wished he could have had more time to think about it properly, but that was it. You'll have to direct to me where you saw her mention she had "second thoughts."

Yes, he made them AFTER THE FACT took the drugs.

Again, watch episode 3. Kyube was clearly warning them of the dangers of the forming witch barrier, and that it was too dangerous to go in. Hell, his standard MO should have been, "If you are going in, you should make a contract with me!" but he didn't even bring it up.

Actually, Kyoko said that her father eventually found about it.

And how do you propose he would have been able to find out about everything? Kyoko was proud of what she was doing.

At any rate, the argument is that "bad things happen to girls who made wishes." But the problem with that argument is like saying, "Murderers drink water, therefore water must drive murderers to kill." It's erroneously drawing a fallacious conclusion, which the hallmark of the Correlation Without Causation Logical fallacy.

If bad things are happening regardless of wishes, then wishes cannot be the source of it. You need more evidence. And it would go against what has been stated in the show itself, so the burden of proof is even higher.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

It's no coincidence that Kyubey is only approaching those who are sad, depressed, or downright at the brink of death.

He approached Madoka and Sayaka, who were in no such position. Hell, Sayaka makes a speech on the roof acknowledging this, that they have been so blessed, they can't even think of a good wish. That is enough to disprove the theory.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

He approached Madoka and Sayaka, who were in no such position. Hell, Sayaka makes a speech on the roof acknowledging this, that they have been so blessed, they can't even think of a good wish. That is enough to disprove the theory.

Sayaka said that, yes. But, she was also visiting Kyousuke in the hospital for quite some time, and it is later revealed that Sayaka did have a good wish to make.

In summary, she lied.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Very strange because I recall Mami saying that she was glad to have the second chance and despite the above issues, she was glad to still be alive as she wouldnt be otherwise.

Oh sure, ignore her confessions to Madoka regarding these scenes. I'm sure they're not her true feelings at all.

GG Subs
16:04 Episode 3
*Mami let goes of Madoka's hand after being praised*
16:05
Mami: It won't be easy
16:07:
Mami:You'll get hurt, won't have time for dates or friends
16:13
*more Madoka aspiring to be like Mami*
16:18
*Mami stops walking*
16:19
Mami: I'm not someone to dream about.
16:24
Mami: I'm just being cool by pushing myself too hard.
16:26
Mami: Even if I'm having a hard time, or having a hard time, I can't talk to anyone. All I can do is cry by myself.
16:33
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Sayaka said that, yes. But, she was also visiting Kyousuke in the hospital for quite some time, and it is later revealed that Sayaka did have a good wish to make.

In summary, she lied.

Then you would be postulating that Kyube could read the future, and could understand human emotion... something contradicted in the show itself. Kamijou didn't start to get upset until much later. At that time, they were shown talking amicably with no indication as to the future issues. It was only later when Kamijou got upset that Sayaka made the decision... something Kyube couldn't have known.

Also, he was calling out to Madoka, too, who was in the same spot as Sayaka; she wasn't sad, depressed, or downright on the brink of death, either. And if you want to argue she was, you might have a point... but then you'd have to accept that everyone has some measure of sadness or insecurity in them, because that's part of being human. Which would kinda make your initial statement about Kyube approaching specific people invalid.

Think of it this way: Everyone has a potential wish they'd like granted. So Kyube could approach anyone. Thus, there is no real hidden motive in his methods.

Again, you're making a correlation without causation.

Originally Posted by Elestia

16:33
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

When you've been alone for a long period of time, it can be difficult letting people in. In fact, it becomes easier to push them away. Given her earlier statements about being glad for the second chance, one is forced to conclude she is trying a last ditch effort to push Madoka away. That is the only way to avoid a contradiction. Her last defense crumbles when Madoka refuses to back down. If it was so bad, she wouldn't want Madoka to be a part of it.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Oh sure, ignore her confessions to Madoka regarding these scenes. I'm sure they're not her true feelings at all.

16:24
Mami: I'm just being cool by pushing myself too hard.
16:26
Mami: Even if I'm having a hard time, or having a hard time, I can't talk to anyone. All I can do is cry by myself.
16:33
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

The problem is when two statements contradict, picking one over the other is always up for debate. Unless a "truth" or "fact" comes into play.

I admit, however, that I'm more compelled to choose Mami's confession over her previous statement of "I don't regret becoming a Puella Magi."

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then you would be postulating that Kyube could read the future, and could understand human emotion... something contradicted in the show itself. Kamijou didn't start to get upset until much later. At that time, they were shown talking amicably with no indication as to the future issues. It was only later when Kamijou got upset that Sayaka made the decision... something Kyube couldn't have known.

Also, he was calling out to Madoka, too, who was in the same spot as Sayaka; she wasn't sad, depressed, or downright on the brink of death, either. And if you want to argue she was, you might have a point... but then you'd have to accept that everyone has some measure of sadness or insecurity in them, because that's part of being human. Which would kinda make your initial statement about Kyube approaching specific people invalid.

Think of it this way: Everyone has a potential wish they'd like granted. So Kyube could approach anyone. Thus, there is no real hidden motive in his methods.

Again, you're making a correlation without causation.

Well, I think it's within reason to say that Sayaka was sufficiently sad before Kamijou started going emo.

Kyubey may have went after Madoka because she has the potential to become, in his words, "the strongest Puella Magi." Madoka is an exception for that reason... after all, she is the main character. She's different from everyone else.

Kyubey could have approached anyone. But most of the people he has chosen are severely depressed people; Madoka is an explained exception. Why? Who knows, but I bet it's not a good thing for humanity.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Oh sure, ignore her confessions to Madoka regarding these scenes. I'm sure they're not her true feelings at all.

GG Subs
16:04 Episode 3
*Mami let goes of Madoka's hand after being praised*
16:05
Mami: It won't be easy
16:07:
Mami:You'll get hurt, won't have time for dates or friends
16:13
*more Madoka aspiring to be like Mami*
16:18
*Mami stops walking*
16:19
Mami: I'm not someone to dream about.
16:24
Mami: I'm just being cool by pushing myself too hard.
16:26
Mami: Even if I'm having a hard time, or having a hard time, I can't talk to anyone. All I can do is cry by myself.
16:33
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

Yes she said that, she warned her of the troubles of being a MG, however you are also missing very specific things such as, were did she say she had second thought, where did she say she would rather have not become one? This is just more of what all of us have been saying in regards to the contract and life after it.

Despite above troubles she also clearly states, she is glad to still be alive, even in such a position rather than to have died at the crash.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Well, I think it's within reason to say that Sayaka was sufficiently sad before Kamijou started going emo.

Kyubey may have went after Madoka because she has the potential to become, in his words, "the strongest Puella Magi." Madoka is an exception for that reason... after all, she is the main character. She's different from everyone else.

Kyubey could have approached anyone. But most of the people he has chosen are severely depressed people; Madoka is an explained exception. Why? Who knows, but I bet it's not a good thing for humanity.

You'd have a fair point with Madoka, but still, Sayaka wasn't quite sad, at least not more than any other. It even took her quite awhile to even begin to think of a wish. She was informed in ep 2, and it wasn't until later in ep 3 when she began to think about a possible wish. I'd argue she was no more sad than anyone else. She wasn't even aware of Kamijou's anguish until ep 4, when he had his outburst. She might have been concerned, but she could still hang out with him, so she wasn't sad.

I usually don't like to assume anyone is lying unless there is incontrovertible proof otherwise, so until that time, I'm forced to conclude that speech on the rooftop was her speaking from her heart. Especially when I don't see a reason for her to lie to Madoka.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Despite above troubles she also clearly states, she is glad to still be alive, even in such a position rather than to have died at the crash.

Being glad to be alive is not the same as being happy, at all. Mami wasn't happy at all. Kyubey's "miracles" don't bring happiness. Regardless of the reasons, they always end up in suffering. That's what we've been shown till now.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Being glad to be alive is not the same as being happy, at all. Mami wasn't happy at all. Kyubey's "miracles" don't bring happiness. Regardless of the reasons, they always end up in suffering. That's what we've been shown till now.

We can debate happiness however she did not regret it. Again, the miracles don't result in suffering, the contract does. Also though, what about what Mg's do? killing witches that cause depression and suicide. Doesn't that bring some form of happiness to other, or at least prevent said suffering? Kyubeys contract doesnt seem to do any end good for the initiator, but it ends well for others regardless of weather they realize it or not.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You'd have a fair point with Madoka, but still, Sayaka wasn't quite sad, at least not more than any other. It even took her quite awhile to even begin to think of a wish. She was informed in ep 2, and it wasn't until later in ep 3 when she began to think about a possible wish. I'd argue she was no more sad than anyone else. She wasn't even aware of Kamijou's anguish until ep 4, when he had his outburst. She might have been concerned, but she could still hang out with him, so she wasn't sad.

Even if I think Sayaka was hiding her sadness inside at that time, it seems you're firm on arguing that she was not.

Very well... but in the end, what really matters is that Sayaka did reach a state of pure misery and severe depression, no? All of the contracts we have seen executed are between Kyubey and a very sad person.

So maybe Kyubey did miss the mark with Sayaka... at first. Kyubey might not be a perfect being at sniffing out sadness, but he may have gotten lucky with Sayaka, who got really sad later. The end result is arguably not so different if Sayaka were already in a state of depression before Kyubey approached her rather than afterward.

The question you seem to be raising in defense is that Kyubey is not a mind reader. Well, I think Kyubey has some ability to sense out sadness. How else would he find Mami at the exact moment of her car crash? Why would he appear in the hospital window when Sayaka was at her most depressed? These seemingly coincidental appearances follow a pattern that I can't ignore.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Again, watch episode 3. Kyube was clearly warning them of the dangers of the forming witch barrier, and that it was too dangerous to go in. Hell, his standard MO should have been, "If you are going in, you should make a contract with me!" but he didn't even bring it up.

Way to avoid my main point and make a strawman. But I'll play along I guess. QB made aware the OBVIOUS dangers of being in a dangerous place, go figure. But he did not make aware the dangers of being a MG. He left it to Mami to do all the explaining, I wonder why, don't you?

And I'll restate my main point. Why did you avoid the point where I stated "even had a "druggee" help explain everything,", when clearly it was not the case?

You have constantly been pushing the idea that the MG knew what they were getting into, but the issue with the soul gem, and his ability to cause pain by touching the soul gem all point to the contrary.

And please don't say it's the MG's fault, that's just a justification not an answer. Cause I'm really tired of hearing the "blame the victims" approach you keep to be uttering every time this point gets brought up. There's a line to be drawn where a person is taking advantage of a stupid person, and a stupid person make a contract.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And how do you propose he would have been able to find out about everything? Kyoko was proud of what she was doing.

Easy there. I was just making a correction. But it's interesting you would say something like that.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

At any rate, the argument is that "bad things happen to girls who made wishes." But the problem with that argument is like saying, "Murderers drink water, therefore water must drive murderers to kill." It's erroneously drawing a fallacious conclusion, which the hallmark of the Correlation Without Causation Logical fallacy.

If bad things are happening regardless of wishes, then wishes cannot be the source of it. You need more evidence. And it would go against what has been stated in the show itself, so the burden of proof is even higher.

Except it's been shown consistently that all MG's wishes have turned out contrary to their hopes. While I agree the "Correlation does not equal Causation" fallacy can be used, there has been strong trends to support the evidence that there is some deeper manipulation going on that actively makes their expectations go horribly awry. We can't just look at one instance and make a conclusion, but when there are several instances that point to the same thing, then it becomes harder to use that fallacy.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

He approached Madoka and Sayaka, who were in no such position. Hell, Sayaka makes a speech on the roof acknowledging this, that they have been so blessed, they can't even think of a good wish. That is enough to disprove the theory.

Really? So are you going to ignore again when QB was in Sayaka's room, just at the precise moment Kamijo was going into his self-destructive phase and lashed out harshly against Sayaka? Did you see how shaken up Sayaka was when she was being attacked by someone she she had a crush on?

Or his obsessive fascination with making Madoka a MG, and nearly reminding her every when her friend Sayaka was in danger? I mean why did QB bring Madoka to the bridge, where Kyoko and Sayaka were going to fight.

And can you expand on why you think Sayaka saying that disproves the theory, I'd like to hear more on that.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

We can debate happiness however she did not regret it. Again, the miracles don't result in suffering, the contract does. Also though, what about what Mg's do? killing witches that cause depression and suicide. Doesn't that bring some form of happiness to other, or at least prevent said suffering? Kyubeys contract doesnt seem to do any end good for the initiator, but it ends well for others regardless of weather they realize it or not.

Right, because when the person themselves who says she regrets it actually means she does't regret it. I love how you are interpreting what the character flatly states as the complete the opposite and instead acting as their representative to what they actually mean.

The line of thought I'm trying to trace:

She confesses she regrets it>She actually doesn't regret it> She must be happy about being a MG, even though there isn't anything to point to the contrary.

And I don't really don't know how this got to preventing said suffering of others. When what we've been discussing for the past couple of pages about how the MG themselves personally feel about the wishes, their happiness, or the contract.

[Triple_R]

Deconstructor - Just about everybody has somebody like Kamijo in their life. A friend, family member, or a loved one suffering from the effects of a major injury, disease, and/or disability. Sayaka is no uniquely depressed target for Kyubey in that regard. And just about everybody has some degree of hardship in life. You'd be hard pressed to find many people who are completely content in life, and couldn't think of a signal thing that they'd like to wish for.

And with this in mind, Sayaka was not lying at all, Deconstructor. Her point was that there was nothing that she felt she needed to wish for for her own sake. And that is unusual, as Sayaka herself noted. Truth be told, there are far more depressed girls that Kyubey could have targeted than Sayaka.

Why not lonely girls in orphanages? That alone could easily give Kyubey an army of magical girls.


Honestly, you're overstating your argument quite a bit, imo. And I disagree with your argument, honestly.

Even beyond the points I'm making here, we're dealing with an incredibly small sample size (five girls). Any statistician worth his salt will tell you that to make any sort of definitive statement based on a sample size of five is sheer madness.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Being glad to be alive is not the same as being happy, at all. Mami wasn't happy at all. Kyubey's "miracles" don't bring happiness. Regardless of the reasons, they always end up in suffering. That's what we've been shown till now.

That's total nonsense.

How can some of those of the "Kyubey is evil" position keep arguing such utterly obvious nonsense? Just how many times do corrections need to be made here?

Mami obviously showed great happiness to Madoka when she spoke to her before her final witch fight. Such happiness never happens if not for Mami's wish.

Kamijo is obviously a lot happier now than he was before Sayaka made her wish.

Sayaka herself had the happiest moment of her life (by her own admission!) when she was on the rooftop listening to the violin recital by Kamijo.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Right, because when the person themselves who says she regrets it actually means she does't regret it. I love how you are interpreting what the character flatly states as the complete the opposite and instead acting as their representative to what they actually mean.

The line of thought I'm trying to trace:

She confesses she regrets it>She actually doesn't regret it> She must be happy about being a MG, even though there isn't anything to point to the contrary.

And I don't really don't know how this got to preventing said suffering of others. When what we've been discussing for the past couple of pages about how the MG themselves personally feel about the wishes, their happiness, or the contract.

Im speaking of a different conversation she had, where she did clearly state that. I don't have the exacts on me but its there and its clear. Also, again and again, the wishes themselves rarely cause said unhappiness, the contract does. I am not calling them happy, I am not saying many of them dont regret it, but the wishes seem to rarely be the cause. The issues regarding the contract itself do and sometimes seem to be the only cause of said unhappiness. Yet, this is always ignored for some reason?

Mami said being a MG sucked yes we all know we all heard, she ALSO said she was glad (note I dont say she is "happy") to have a chance to continue her life despite the MG stuff. I will find the actual lines later but I can't do it right now.


Mami may not have been "happy" but surely did not seem depressed either, neither does Kyoko, and we dont know anything about Homura.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Deconstructor - Just about everybody has somebody like Kamijo in their life. A friend, family member, or a loved one suffering from the effects of a major injury, disease, and/or disability. Sayaka is no uniquely depressed target for Kyubey in that regard. And just about everybody has some degree of hardship in life. You'd be hard pressed to find many people who are completely content in life, and couldn't think of a signal thing that they'd like to wish for.

Again, if you're saying that everyone is sad, then the people Kyubey visits are miserable in comparison. Hitomi is a good counter-example - she might be sad, but I don't think she's at the level of Sayaka or Kyoko.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And with this in mind, Sayaka was not lying at all, Deconstructor. Her point was that there was nothing that she felt she needed to wish for for her own sake. And that is unusual, as Sayaka herself noted. Truth be told, there are far more depressed girls that Kyubey could have targeted than Sayaka.

Sayaka was very depressed by episode 4. Whether Kyubey has the power to read minds, predict the future, or just got plain lucky, he certainly found a very sad person.

We haven't seen many other girls sadder than Sayaka who were not turned into Puella Magi. Mami, Kyoko, and Homura might be sadder than Sayaka, and look where they ended up. Even if a million girls are sadder than Sayaka, they have not appeared yet. Therefore, you can't make any definitive statements on how many sad girls exist in the world.

If you ask me, having a crush on someone who can't do the thing he loves is pretty sad. Sayaka was sobbing rather heavily.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why not lonely girls in orphanages? That alone could easily give Kyubey an army of magical girls.

Yes, why not? There might be an army of magical girls yet - it has been confirmed that there are other magical girls out there.

Of course, I think that not every girl will be as strong as Mami. It has also been confirmed that some Magi have potential to become more powerful than others. I think that Kyubey is only interested in the girls with the most potential.

We also don't know if Kyubey has any limits to making Puella Magi. Yes, we have only seen a small sample size, but that may be because of Kyubey's own limitations.

All we know is the people who Kyubey has contracted were, at the moment of their contraction, very sad.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, you're overstating your argument quite a bit, imo. And I disagree with your argument, honestly.

Yes, I could tell by your signature... I don't think there is a person in the world who could convince you two otherwise. Unless they were a really good hypnotist.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Even if I think Sayaka was hiding her sadness inside at that time, it seems you're firm on arguing that she was not.

I'd have to conclude that she was lying to Madoka, then, and that is a step I am not willing to make at this time, since there is no evidence of it. You're arguing based on your belief from from a notion. You're trying to make the theory fit, instead of letting the facts make the theory.

Again, I will point out the obvious fallacy involved here:

"Murderers drink water, therefore water makes one a murderer."
"Tragedy happened after wishes, therefore wishes must cause tragedy."

Tragedy happened to Kamijou, and there was no wish involved. Correlation does not imply Causation. This means that just because two things happen or are somewhat close to each, it does not mean they are related or have a cause-and-effect relationship. Water doesn't make a murderer, and I know you'd think someone was silly if they tried to make that claim. Tragedy is happening to people who didn't make wishes, and some of the tragedy is due to personal feelings and actions, not due to wishes. And the show itself contradicts this notion. Homura said they were true miracles.

As I said, your better argument is that life itself is crapping on these people. You might have a case if you said, "There seems to be some force conspiring against all these people, based on the way things have turned out."

Triple_R covered anything else; there are plenty of other people who would be more desperate for a wish.

Originally Posted by Elestia

Way to avoid my main point and make a strawman. But I'll play along I guess. QB made aware the OBVIOUS dangers of being in a dangerous place, go figure. But he did not make aware the dangers of being a MG. He left it to Mami to do all the explaining, I wonder why, don't you?

Nope, I don't. Mami was there, and she's a human; logically, it would seem better to let the human do most of the explaining. But note that Kyube also spoke up several times during the explanations to offer points.

And I'll restate my main point. Why did you avoid the point where I stated "even had a "druggee" help explain everything,", when clearly it was not the case?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Mami knew how life as a magical girl went, without the obvious soul part. She's in a good position to relate to other young girls what's involved.

And please don't say it's the MG's fault, that's just a justification not an answer. Cause I'm really tired of hearing the "blame the victims" approach you keep to be uttering every time this point gets brought up. There's a line to be drawn where a person is taking advantage of a stupid person, and a stupid person make a contract.

In your life, you have agreed to an End User License Agreement. I'm willing to bet you never really read the fine print on all of them, didn't you? You'd be surprised what rights you surrender and what you're agreeing to. By your own logic, then, you've been snookered.

Unfortunately, the courts would rule against you. You had the chance to find out what was involved before you signed your name. I'd suggest you look at Read the Fine Print. Also, perhaps you missed it in my many previous posts, but I hold equal blame for Kyube and Sayaka. Kyube for not telling, and Sayaka for not reading the fine print. To argue Sayaka blameless, is to argue that personal responsibility means nothing. Which means I can come over and smack you up all I want, and I can just say, "Hey, I'm not responsible. It's not he told me he didn't want to be smacked..."

Except it's been shown consistently that all MG's wishes have turned out contrary to their hopes. While I agree the "Correlation does not equal Causation" fallacy can be used, there has been strong trends to support the evidence that there is some deeper manipulation going on that actively makes their expectations go horribly awry. We can't just look at one instance and make a conclusion, but when there are several instances that point to the same thing, then it becomes harder to use that fallacy.

The problem, as I've mentioned before, is that bad things are happened regardless of wishes. Did Kamijou make a wish and thus that's why he was in the hospital? Did Mami make a wish and that's why she was in the car wreck?

Unless you have hard proof wishes are behind it, it's circumstantial evidence at best.

Isn't it interesting, that everytime we find something bad happening, there is oxygen around? They must be related! Oxygen must be causing the tragedies!

Really? So are you going to ignore again when QB was in Sayaka's room, just at the precise moment Kamijo was going into his self-destructive phase and lashed out harshly against Sayaka? Did you see how shaken up Sayaka was when she was being attacked by someone she she had a crush on?

Course not. But Sayaka didn't look surprised to see Kyube, either. If someone popped up that I didn't expect to be there, I'd be surprised. If, on the other hand, someone popped up that I did expect to be there, I wouldn't be. Especially if I wanted that person there.

Or his obsessive fascination with making Madoka a MG, and nearly reminding her every when her friend Sayaka was in danger? I mean why did QB bring Madoka to the bridge, where Kyoko and Sayaka were going to fight.

Because he knew Madoka didn't want Sayaka to fight? Seriously, any situation you bring up, has more than one possibility for an answer. On the bright side, this is part of the goodness of the series. You never quite know which way is correct, because multiple explanations are equally plausible.

Ain't it great?^^

And can you expand on why you think Sayaka saying that disproves the theory, I'd like to hear more on that.

Her rooftop spiel? Sure. She and Madoka were talking, wondering what to wish for, and wondering why it was so hard to think of something. Sayaka came to the realization that their lives were actually very good, better than most people. They were blessed, and thus they didn't have anything to wish for. Thus, they weren't the "sad, depressed, on the brink of death" people that Kyube was supposedly looking for. If that's what he was after, he made an incredibly stupid choice here. There are loads of poor people and orphans who would love a wish.

Why doesn't he go after those? He could easily have an MG army in no time!

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Sayaka was very depressed by episode 4. Whether Kyubey has the power to read minds, predict the future, or just got plain lucky, he certainly found a very sad person.

So, you're saying your theory depends on luck making you right? That seems to be the problem here. You have a theory that you want to be true, but the only way to defend it, is to cherry pick, interpret, and jam facts around it, while also constructing ever more complex scenarios. That's fine, but I don't like tying myself down like that. Makes me miss things. I prefer instead to see what conclusion the facts lead me to.

Yes, I could tell by your signature... I don't think there is a person in the world who could convince you two otherwise. Unless they were a really good hypnotist.

It's a joke, son, laugh!

Our true position is more like: "Let's see what the real truth is, eh? Could be anything, so let's keep our minds open. As long as the facts support the theory, then it is worth considering."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Again, if you're saying that everyone is sad, then the people Kyubey visits are miserable in comparison.

No, they're not. My whole point is that I think you're wrong here.

How many families have at least one cancer victim in them? How many people know friends with disabilities? How many people come from poor homes?

This is incredibly common. Kyubey would have to specifically target only the happiest of people in order to not run into anybody with problems in their life.

Hitomi is a good counter-example -

Hitomi is a well-to-do girl from a wealthy family. She's not really a good counterexample here.

Sayaka was very depressed by episode 4.

But not when Kyubey first offered to contract with here.

We haven't seen many other girls sadder than Sayaka who were not turned into Puella Magi.

We haven't seen many non-magical girl girls in this anime, period.

Mami, Kyoko, and Homura might be sadder than Sayaka, and look where they ended up. Even if a million girls are sadder than Sayaka, they have not appeared yet. Therefore, you can't make any definitive statements on how many sad girls exist in the world.

This anime is aiming for a certain degree of realism. This is clearly not an idealistic magical girl anime (at least not in a conventional "start to finish" way). There's no reason whatsoever to believe that the average girl in this anime universe is happier than the average girl in the real world.

So, if we work off of the real world, Sayaka's situation is simply not that usually bad.

Yes, why not?

Maybe because he doesn't go out of his way to target the most depressed girls around?

There might be an army of magical girls yet - it has been confirmed that there are other magical girls out there.

Well, by this rationale, there might be a happy-go-lucky magical girl brigade out there that functions like the classic Power Rangers.

Both of this is pure speculation, of course.

I think that Kyubey is only interested in the girls with the most potential.

Now that I probably agree with, and is a logical course for him to take.

All we know is the people who Kyubey has contracted were, at the moment of their contraction, very sad.

But not all of them were sad when Kyubey first met them, and offered to contract with them.

Yes, I could tell by your signature... I don't think there is a person in the world who could convince you two otherwise.

LOL! The signature is just for a laugh.

In any event, why should Kyubey's Legal Defense Team make concessions while the far larger Prosecuting side refuses to make many themselves?

[MeoTwister5]

Ethical neutrality is such a nice place to be in right now. Who's with me?