2008-12-14, 02:07 | Link #1701 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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2008-12-14, 02:54 | Link #1702 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The idea that they could have used RF6's holo training field as a practical defensive application is kind of silly. For one thing, that would require the foresight to assume that RF6 would be attacked in the first place. It's -not- a defensive installation. It's not a high-security installation. There's no reason to assume that Jail's intelligence, which was pretty good up to and including things like actual high-security installations at HQ, wasn't good enough to ferret out most of the layout of RF6's base.
I was under the impression that Nanoha and Fate's limiters, while in existence, weren't designed to keep them locked down against their will - more of a "if you need to use this, there's going to be a lot of paperwork explaining things afterwards" measure that keeps them out of the top end of their power range for casual purposes. Hayate's is more like an actual restriction. We don't know if she could bust it on her own. It's clear that she's not authorized to do so, and she'd probably be in a good bit of trouble if she did. (Well, as much trouble as SS-ranks can get in. Which, of course, is the point!) |
2008-12-14, 09:06 | Link #1703 | ||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I'm having trouble believing that people are still blaming the destruction of RF6 as a failure on Hayate's part. The TSAB had no way of knowing RF6 was going to be a target of attack, as all the prophecy showed was that there 'might' be an attack on the Ground Forces HQ. Heck, even the military buffs here didn't expect the attack on RF6.
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Problem is, we know Subaru is very powerful, and we know she didn't snap the drone in two like a twig. While no precise calculations can be made, the fact that she drills into the drone slowly actually works against you here, as this does prove that the armor is not merely light and easy to break. Quote:
Your assumption is that since you measured the speed, it must be accurate. Ergo, middy concrete has the strength of polystyrene. The problem is, however, that this does not explain why Mid build their homes, and even their own bases out of this materials. Going as far as to make it their primary support material. Then of course you need to explain why these buildings don't just collapse under their own weight, not to mention the weight the people inhabiting and their equipment must place on them. But we're not done yet, what about the weather? How do these buildings stand up to heavy wind? Or a hailstorm? If the measured speed is accurate, even a hailstorm would do more damage then the people thrown against it. And of course, despite claiming it to be a different kind of material, you have no name to place on it. What is this wonder material called, that shows so many contradictions in your own observations? That's what you're doing. Creating more problems, and then just ignoring them and assume 'well, my speed calculations are absolute, so the rest must be wrong.' I on the other hand, merely assume an inaccurate medium of measuring to be inaccurate. I throw out one observation. You throw out several observations, among which also realism and common sense (something which you always chid me for), and rely on the 'durrr, Mid is dumb' to explain. Perhaps another way of calculating would satisfy you. After all, there's no way you will ever believe something unless you can calculate it. Is it possible to calculate their speed not by observing the frames, but observing the damage caused? Let's take the Erio-into-a-pillar scene of episode 11. Assume the concrete to be normal. How much speed would a solid object of about Erio's size need to create such a crater in the concrete? Quote:
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Was that an insult aimed at me? Because I can just as easily turn it around and hurl it right back at you. Quote:
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And of course they won't be able to get rid of all weapons. That's like assuming we can get rid of all terrorists. There will always be criminals, and as long as there are criminals, there will always be people with weapons the law won't allow. Quote:
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No, what happened here is that the animator failed to appease to your taste as a viewer. Animation is only perfectly accurate if such is the goal of the animation. Nanoha is an anime made for entertainment. Realism of animated speed is a non-issue here. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-12-14 at 12:58. |
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2008-12-14, 09:33 | Link #1704 |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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Besides... has there been an animated work along the budget of a TV series that has ever shown speeds realistically? Only animators who actually care to do so actually animate speeds so meticulously... and they require budget on the level of a movie. And even in animated movie works, most movies I've seen go for style more than realism, especially in regard to physics and speed.
Point me to a good example of an animation that shows realistic projectile speeds 100% in all scenes all the time while maintaining dramatic tension and entertainment value?
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2008-12-14, 10:00 | Link #1708 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Agreed, all that was said was that Cinque was 'incredible for even being able to take down an S-rank mage' Cinque herself has AA-rank physical strength. Of course, this doesn't take into account her IS. She's obviously not a close-ranged expert, rather a mid-close ranged fighter. Preferring to take down the enemy from a distance, but capable of handling herself in close combat.
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2008-12-14, 10:07 | Link #1709 |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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Besides, it has been said that Rank does not decide how a battle will turn out. A mere A-Rank (or was it AA?) defeated both Nanoha and Fate in a training exercise afterall.
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2008-12-14, 10:25 | Link #1710 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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AA rank. And no, rank doesn't say anything in terms of combat expertise. You can have all the powerful nukes you want, but that doesn't help you if you have no way of getting away from a close-combat specialist. And vice-versa, you can have all the SSS ranked melee power there is, and still get torn apart if you have no way of closing into a range expert.
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2008-12-14, 10:51 | Link #1711 | |
Beta by Accident
Author
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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Overall, the problem with mage rankings is that what they give is not a measure of power level but a thumbnail of magical combat potential. It goes a long way towards explaining the issues when they actually go to show us the B-rank text in Strikers 1. Tests like these cover multiple issues simultaneously: opponents to defeat, ground to cover, tactical objectives to achieve. Subaru and Tia are both the same rank, but they're nothing alike in their skills and abilities and relying on mage rank to determine which of them is more useful in any given situation is useless. Getting on to the Numbers, listed rankings are even shakier, because it's fairly unlikely that Jail snuck them into actual scheduled rank testing. Are their I.S.s factored in to determining power level (and if not, why?)? And what measure is used to determine those assigned ranks? |
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2008-12-14, 11:07 | Link #1712 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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2008-12-14, 11:28 | Link #1713 | ||
Beta by Accident
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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...Quattro would probably key the paint job or something... |
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2008-12-14, 13:20 | Link #1715 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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One thing I would like to point out about hiding in the training holofield:
The training holofield draws its power from RF6 base. The base is the first target. The drones will trash it. They will also trash the generators. And the holofield will then fail, causing everyone to take a short dunk into cold water. And then, as they swim to shore, or struggle, or drown, they become easy pickings for the drones.
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2008-12-14, 13:27 | Link #1716 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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On that subject, Hayate left behind a AAA-rank defensive specialist and a AA+ support mage. One generally expects such levels of power to be able to handle an attack. Considering they had no clue that their base was going to be attacked in the first place, Hayate's decision was tactically a cautious one from my point of view.
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2008-12-14, 13:50 | Link #1717 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Even if they couldn't beat off the attackers, Shamal and Zafira should be able to stall long enough for backup to arrive. The fact that they were overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers doesn't preclude the fact that they were managing to do what they were supposed to do: defend and stall for backup to arrive. Unfortunately backup was delayed.
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2008-12-14, 14:05 | Link #1718 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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In other words, Hayate's 'failure' was more the enemy coming in with forces far beyond expectation, and attacking targets that appeared completely unrelated. There was no way for Hayate to know the enemy was going to send massive firepower to her headquarters to capture Vivio, or even that they were going to capture Vivio at all.
I think we're looking at something that was blown out of proportion again here. |
2008-12-14, 17:28 | Link #1719 |
"Begin, the operation!"
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I think this is simply a case of plot overshadowing the "realism" of MSLN.
Realistically, between Shamal, Zafira, and Vice, there should have been no problem against the Gadget Drones that went there. However, them beating back the offense would not have worked with the plot, and so, they had to fail in one way or another. If I were to guess, they probably underestimated the Combat Cyborgs, as well as Lutecia and Garyuu. They were beaten because the enemy blindsided them. It wasn't Hayate's fault.
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2008-12-14, 22:27 | Link #1720 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Correct, judging from previous actions, there's no reason to think that Shamal and Zafira wouldn't be enough to defend the base. And they almost held out long enough too. Yet, ark dismisses their defense of the base like he does RF6's deployment at HQ. It's like I kept saying, no matter what they showed on screen, it wouldn't have satisfied him unless they clearly drove off the attackers. He says otherwise, but look at how he considers the presence of two experienced veterans to be "inadequate".
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