General Discussion on the Shichibukai [Manga]

[Hisoka??]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

^ I accounted for terrain advantages. Even so, Jimbei's showings haven't been as impressive as the top tiers (Mihawk, Kuma, & Doflamingo). He clearly acknowledged he's not at his best on land, and that is the terrain where the majority of battles are fought. In the event that there is a sea nearby, BB could potentially suck the ocean into his black hole and thus deprive Jimbei of such an advantageous tool.

I know most of the battles are being fought at land now. But my point was this is a pirate manga and most of the people travel around in ships so fighting at sea shouldn't even be that rare. In fact I suspect the reason why most of the fights have been on land is due to the fact that the arcs have been about attacking a fort/base. Fights between shichibukai though, unless premeditated are as likely if not more so to occur at sea.

I doubt the blackhole works that way. Otherwise I would argue that BB could suck all the land away and deprive his opponent of land as well.

edit: Re-read and I think you are assuming that the battle would be on land with a sea nearby. My assumption is that the battle is just as likely to be at the sea itself with each on their own boat/ship/raft/whatever.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

^ In your scenario, Jimbei would be the most powerful without a doubt. He could swim underwater and destroy everyone else's boat/ship/raft. The DF users especially will be finished when that happens.

[grey_1960]

Shichibukai
I don't think any of the Shichibukai can listed on organization of power. For Crocodile I think he is not getting the credit he deserves. He is on par with any of the characters that have taken up the Shichibukai title.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Out of curiosity, which of Oda's villains can be described as a bishounen? Doflamingo comes closest, but even then his style is too far beyond even what a bishounen can pull off.

Honestly, I always felt that Rob Lucci fit the bill as far as bishie villains go. He reminds me of just about every cookie cutter pretty-boy villain out there: Silent, dark-haired dude with a bland personality, enjoys killing, is generally an asshole towards everybody, has a dark past, etc. I'll admit that Lucci at least has some style (I'm not gonna lie.... I really liked that pimpin' coat he wore on the sea train), but in the end, I chiefly find him boring (if only he were more like a Jojo villain.... which, IMO, are good examples of bishie villains done right). Otherwise, I always felt that the goofier villains had more interesting powers and personalities overall (speaking of that, when the heck is Buggy the warlord gonna appear? ).



To go back on topic, I wonder how long it'll be before we see the new Shichibukai replacements? I already mentioned Buggy above, but we've still gotta see which of our supernova friends were offered the chance to become government dogs.......

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

You know, I'm wondering if Mihawk's attack against Luffy was a bid to buy time for Shanks' intervention and to confirm for himself whether his frenemy's belief in him was justified?

Reworded a small part, since we're in the manga section . Definitely a plausible theory.

Mihawk was testing Luffy's fate; would he escape from his sights, or would he fall prey to the black sword?

Luffy's first bounty caught his attention, which prompted him to verify with his friend Shanks if this rookie was indeed the one he bet the new era on. Then subsequent to Crocodile's defeat and Luffy's bounty being raised to 100 million, Mihawk himself became interested in the SH pirates (evident in him attending the first Shichibukai replacement meeting).

During the Marineford war, Mihawk commented that Luffy possesses the most dangerous ability in the entire ocean: the ability to make those around him into his allies. Making that astute observation, it's possible that Mihawk foresaw that Shanks would inevitably intervene. From that point on, it was up to Luffy to persevere/hold out.

I like this theory, Kuroi Hadou .

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I like this theory, Kuroi Hadou .

Thank you.

The first inklings of it came to me when Mihawk walked away like the very next panel that Shanks showed up, and Mihawk has mentioned several times that he'd like to see what fate had in store for the world. For the longest time he was just wandering around, looking for a strong opponent, but after meeting Luffy and Zoro he became interested again. He seems to have lost his drive for a while after Shanks lost his arm, and when he met the person Shanks sacrificed his arm for... well, you pretty much described it perfectly. Not to mention he probably would have recognized the straw hat almost instantly.

And when you think about it, Mihawk placed his own bet on Zoro, and in turn Luffy as well. It seems like he and Shanks (and Rayleigh too) are the ones actively driving the world into the New Era. You can't really count Whitebeard, since he was content to just sit where he was until he realized who Ace was and placed his bet on him. But it was the wrong one, and it seemed like he changed his bet to Luffy by the end of the Marineford arc.

[Kallen4life]

so anyone agrees that we'll never see Kuma using his offensive pushing powers to their fullest potential, because they're by far the single most broken thing in OP ? I mean sending people into lethal places, first and foremost - DF-users into the ocean .. it's not instant teleport, but there's still not much they can do - exceptions being flyers (Shiki, Laffite, Marco, Pell) and probably Aokiji (not sure about non-solid logias .. can they just hover above the ocean ? like Enel, Kizaru)

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

so anyone agrees that we'll never see Kuma using his offensive pushing powers to their fullest potential, because they're by far the single most broken thing in OP ? I mean sending people into lethal places, first and foremost - DF-users into the ocean .. it's not instant teleport, but there's still not much they can do - exceptions being flyers (Shiki, Laffite, Marco, Pell) and probably Aokiji (not sure about non-solid logias .. can they just hover above the ocean ? like Enel, Kizaru)

There may be a limit as to where Kuma can send his victims. Perhaps the way it works is that he can only send people to places he's been before. If that's the case, the ocean is off-limits since he's a DF user himself.

Even if he does have such a restriction, he still has more than enough hax tools at his disposal.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

There is a vast difference between Jinbei fighting with Ace (a fish against fire? Not a very good match-up ...), and Jinbei fighting with Blackbeard (who pre-Quake powers didn't necessarily have the offensive moves to beat a juggernaut like Jinbei). No, pre-Quake I would place Jinbei ahead of Blackbeard.

I thought this over again, and now I'm absolutely certain Jimbei would lose to pre-Quake BB.

Ace vs. Jimbei ended in a stalemate after 5 days of fighting. Yet shortly after that, Ace got up and proceeded to get thrashed by WB, whereas Jimbei was still lying on the floor passed out. These clashes occurred roughly 2 years prior to the time-skip.

Given how Jimbei is middle-aged (46 years old), one can infer he has already reached his physical peak. Very little room for improvement, if you will. Whereas for Ace, we know that he was still very young and had yet to reach his full potential.

With all that being said, it's logical to conclude that BB fought a stronger Ace than the one Jimbei fought. What took Jimbei 5 days to do, BB did in a very short period of time. Only 2 punches from BB put Ace in critical condition; Jimbei had to use accumulative damage over the course of 5 days to put down Ace.

While true that the Darkness fruit isn't as advantageous against non-DF fighters, its gravitational pull and BB's raw physical power would be enough to overwhelm Jimbei. It'll come down to a battle of exchanging blows up close, but in terms of durability/endurance and damage output, BB has Jimbei beat (going by feats).

[james0246]

^That's actually a fiarly good point. Though, I will say that age is only an issue if Oda wishes to make it an issue (far more often a character will be weakened due to injury or illness rather than old age).

That being said, didn't Jinbei fight Ace on land?

[marvelB]

^While it's true the fight started on land, remember that they were surrounded by ocean during that time (we even see Whitebeard's ship docked in front of their bodies after the fight). It's very likely that Jinbei used his full arsenal against Ace during their duel (that is, unless his honor code prevented him from using the seawater against a DF user).....

[james0246]

^I honestly do not remember where they fought. It was only a panel or two in the manga, and my viewership of the anime is sporadic at best...

[-Suigetsu-]

Mihawk is the strongest Shichibukai, he's also the only top tier among them.

Mihawk is also stronger than Shanks as well.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Mihawk is also stronger than Shanks as well.

Mihawk is superior to Shanks in swordsmanship, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger overall. We have yet to see Shanks' utmost capabilities, and he may have other skills that compensate for his inferiority to Mihawk in swordsmanship. Personally, I'm inclined to believe they're equals.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Mihawk is superior to Shanks in swordsmanship, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger overall. We have yet to see Shanks' utmost capabilities, and he may have other skills that compensate for his inferiority to Mihawk in swordsmanship. Personally, I'm inclined to believe they're equals.

If Mihawk is the stronger swordsman, it means that he's stronger overall.

You talk as if Shanks has another fighting style besides swordsmanship or something, because that would be the only way to compensate, that or a random devil fruit. And both are highly unlikely.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

If Mihawk is the stronger swordsman, it means that he's stronger overall.

You talk as if Shanks has another fighting style besides swordsmanship or something.

But we don't know if Shanks' skill set is limited to pure swordsmanship. And even if it is, he may possess a more potent Haki than Mihawk to make up for the deficiency.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

But we don't know if Shanks' skill set is limited to pure swordsmanship.

Everything points to it. He used a sword to clash with Whitebeard, to block Akainu's attack, to fight in the Edd War. He's never shown with any other weapon. There's no reason to assume otherwise until you know, something comes up to make use assume otherwise.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

And even if it is, he may possess a more potent Haki than Mihawk to make up for the deficiency.

Haki is not a separate fighting style, but a supplement. If Shanks had much superior haki, then he would most likely be the superior swordsman, because haki enhances his combat skills. Aside from CoC of course, which so far is only a fodder beater.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Everything points to it. He used a sword to clash with Whitebeard, to block Akainu's attack, to fight in the Edd War. He's never shown with any other weapon. There's no reason to assume otherwise until you know, something comes up to make use assume otherwise.

Just like how everything pointed to WB only using a bisento prior to the Marineford war. We all know how that turned out.

And to counter Mihawk's title of "Strongest Swordsman in the World", Shanks is considered one of the 4 strongest pirates in the world. Mihawk is a pirate, so I guess that must mean Shanks>Mihawk, right?

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Haki is not a separate fighting style, but a supplement. If Shanks had much superior haki, then he would most likely be the superior swordsman, because haki enhances his combat skills. Aside from CoC of course, which so far is only a fodder beater.

I know that. But you don't have definitive proof Mihawk>Shanks.

[-Suigetsu-]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Just like how everything pointed to WB only using a bisento prior to the Marineford war. We all know how that turned out.

Not really, there's multiple examples for Shanks while there's only one for Whitebeard, and Shanks was already shown to be swimming. Not to mention, he already told Buggy that he's not interested in eating a devil fruit. Whitebeard didn't have nearly as much things pointing to him.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

And to counter Mihawk's title of "Strongest Swordsman in the World", Shanks is considered one of the 4 strongest pirates in the world. Mihawk is a pirate, so I guess that must mean Shanks>Mihawk, right?

No, they are just the 4 most powerful pirate crews who rule the New World like emperors.

Oda himself stated that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I know that. But you don't have definitive proof Mihawk>Shanks.

Until it's shown otherwise, then that's what I believe.

Is there something wrong with a Shichibukai being stronger than a Yonkou?

It still doesn't change the fact that Shanks is the much much bigger threat between the two, because he has under his command an entire crew + possible allies, while Mihawk is just a loner.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

No, they are just the 4 most powerful pirate crews who rule the New World like emperors.

And the New World is where the most powerful pirates reside. That's why the first half of the grand line is called "paradise". The emperors are renowned as those standing at the very top in this era of piracy. That's basically synonymous to them being the greatest/strongest.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Oda himself stated that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman.

Never claimed otherwise.

Originally Posted by -Suigetsu-

Until it's shown otherwise, then that's what I believe.

Is there something wrong with a Shichibukai being stronger than a Yonkou?

There's nothing wrong with a shichibukai being stronger than a Yonkou. But you don't have any concrete evidence to make such a bold claim.