Remember11 -The Age of Infinity-

[GundamAce]

Spoiler for End-game spoilers:

Well, today's the last day of the second week! Six more months until the final week! See you all then!

[-ReMeDy-]

This topic prompted me to create an account here, as this seems like the most informative place of Remember11 info I've found.

Let me first say, I just finished the game and despite having played Ever17 prior, I think Remember11 had a solid ending. I don't understand why so many bash Remember11's ending. Some even questioned whether it even had an ending! I think people were expecting a groundbreaking conclusion, like Ever17, so they felt disappointed. I also wonder if some were too swayed by the ending, considering it's the final impression they're left with. People are too quick to forget the game's greatness leading up to the questionable conclusion!

Well here is a revelation: I actually liked Remember11 BETTER than Ever17! No visual novel kept me more captivated and on the edge of my seat than Remember11 did. I plugged 30 hours into the game, and I don't regret it one bit. I loved solving the various nuisances, hunting for clues, looking up at the ceiling at night to piece together theories, and regularly stepping away from the game and reflecting on what I was witnessing. Everything was phenomenal, including the voice talent, improved art, the moving character lips, the soundtrack...

Spoiler for Remember11 and Ever17:

Finally, no more bitching about chicken sandwiches, playing "Chicks," everyone being friends... No, Remember11 is a man's game! Blood, questionable ethics, philosophy, quantum logic, time travel, cliffhangers, a ton of in-game decisions, 30+ endings... this is the game I was hoping Ever17 would be!

Like others, I came from the "999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors" crowd. People in that forum were promising Ever17 was the closest comparison. Instead, all I got was the meaning of friendship, love, family, etc. Yes, the Blick Winkle ending was awesome and it's one of my favorite endings of all time, but how many patient non-Japanese gamers are going to sit through such a game to reach that ending? Remember11 is the much better 999 comparison for its inclusion of multiple bad endings, cliffhangers, blood, an unknown killer, and more mature themes.

Remember11's ending was very commendable. It was a happy ending where Utsumi was reunited with her children and dead husband. The cabin survivors are rescued. We learn about the transfer phenomenon, Yuni's motive, and more. Practically 95% of the game's mysteries are solved if you take the time to think and research. The game doesn't spell itself out, like Ever17 does, and for that I'm actually thankful! There's nothing wrong with good cliffhangers, and Remember11 does a great job at them! It was an absolutely awesome ending to see Lin pointing at Satoru and saying he wasn't Satoru! Talk about a big slap in the face to the real "evil" Satoru, knowing he's trapped in a body that doesn't even belong to him! It's ironic that in his quest to save Lin, he doomed himself into a body and partially amnesiac mind. That's the price you pay meddling in God's affairs, and a fitting conclusion to a character who is part-hero and part-villain.

I've got a little brother (age 23) who is new to visual novels. We're heading on a trip to Florida without Internet. I'll have Remember 11 and Ever17 with me. You know what game I'm going to recommend first?... Remember11! Alas, we're taking a plane trip down there, but he won't start playing the game until after the fact :P.

[-ReMeDy-]

Sorry, double post.

Spoiler for Remember11:

While I'm at it though, I just want to get clarification on one thing... So the shadowy figure who pushed Satoru off the tower was actually a past version of Satoru (in the form of Enomoto - the real Satoru's body), right? And he knew Satoru would get amnesia from the fall because it was on the terabyte disc given to him by Yuni?

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by -ReMeDy-

Sorry, double post.

While I'm at it though, I just want to get clarification on one thing...

Spoiler:

So the shadowy figure who pushed Satoru off the tower was actually a past version of Satoru (in the form of Enomoto - the real Satoru's body), right? And he knew Satoru would get amnesia from the fall because it was on the terabyte disc given to him by Yuni?

Please use spoiler tags where appropriate. That character's very existence is a spoiler, so tag it.

If you haven't done so yet, read TLWiki's spoiler discussion page, it contains LOTS of clarification on various subjects. The translated Remember11 part of the infinity timeline also contains vital information. According to my theory,

Spoiler:

It was Self who pushed Satoru off the clock tower. Satoru didn't get amnesia by falling off the clock tower, Satoru got amnesia by not having any memories in the first place - post-fall Satoru is a completely new person with some of Satoru's memories implanted into him.

[myopius]

What an amazing game. Certainly, it had "unsatisfying" elements. But there were no deus ex machina--just lack of explanation. Simply put, I felt the drive of the characters very keenly, especially amid the suspenseful race against time.

I'm collecting my thoughts on the explained and unexplained elements of this story.

Spoiler for Full, spoilery discussion:

I've now read the official Remember11 timeline translated by BlickWinkel, much of the TLWiki spoiler thread (focusing on lors's posts), and VDZ's theory here on AnimeSuki, along with other online discussions here and there. Having done that, it seems undeniable that Remember11 is "incomplete". Even people such as lors and VDZ, who seem to have thought very hard about this, readily admit the uncertainty of elements of their theory. I can't help but feel that there should have been a "Keiko chapter". In spite of that, there is a lot that we readers can know, so I'm happy to have spent time trying to understand more. I'm going to collect and transpose some foundational information into these next paragraphs now, mainly taking from the timeline and TIPS.

Satoru has a twin sister, Sayaka (or maybe they were just born on the same day and adopted, but that seems unlikely). Kokoro was also born on the same day as them (February 22, 1990). Sayaka (or rather, her body) kills their parents in 1998. Sayaka is diagnosed with DID and found not guilty due to insanity. Sayaka is then sent to a mental institute--all this happened in 1998. But sometime later, she's transferred to a Leiblich research facility. Either at the mental institute or the research facility, we see a flashback with Sayaka and Satoru, in which Satoru says he'll protect her and Sayaka fears she (her body) will kill him. Sayaka's personality according to TIPS states that she likes her brother, family, and snow, but dislikes hospitals, medicine, and herself.

In January or February (before the 22nd) of 2001, Sayaka "dies", being "no longer in this world". The timeline adds that Sayaka's "very existence ... is lost", and quotes the word "death", so it seems very possible that her body didn't die, her dominant personality (Sayaka) just disappeared. For some reason, Satoru partly blames himself for what happened to her. Satoru begins to search for the true reason behind her "death". In 2006 (when he's only 15 or 16), Satoru finally learns of an "existence" or "transcendental will" that "gives a subjugation-like influence over the minds and wills of humans". That "existence" is presumably referred to as "That Guy" (aitsu in katakana) in the corresponding TIP which reads: For this person, there is no past. For this person, there is no future. To be more accurate, the concept of time does not exist for this person. For this person, the past, the present, and the future are all condensed into a single point. Point. Emptiness. 0th dimension. Three concepts that overlap. This person exists in a place devoid of everything. That absolute will is the only thing there. An absolute will. According to them. If we were to come up with an example, this person would be David. Without a doubt, this person was a "king" who entirely ruled them. Satoru believes that is responsible for the murder committed with Sayaka's body. And, it's possible that "a number of" incidents similar to Sayaka's crime, which occurred around the same time, may also be the responsibility of that "existence". In 2009, the Inubushi Keiko incident occurs and she is sent to SPHIA. As a result of the incident, Satoru becomes more confident in his theory about the "existence", and the words of Keiko (or whoever was in her body at the time), "Where is self?", lead Satoru to dub that existence Self. Keiko is found not guilty and sent to SPHIA.

In 2009, Satoru begins to form the "YUKIDOH plan" to "lure Self to this world". Although the TIPS also add that Sayaka's death is the reason for Satoru executing the plan, it's not clear what that means. In early January 2011, Satoru is still in the process of setting up the necessary space-time transfer equipment, and has a goal of "on-site data acquisition". On January 17, he discovers news of the plane crash and assumes Mayuzumi died, and wonders if he can rescue Mayuzumi using a space-time transfer. Later in 2011, Satoru obtains the terabyte disk from Yuni and uses its info to complete his space-time transfer equipment. He changes the test site from Australia to Japan, and changes his goal from data acquisition to rescuing Mayuzumi and the other plane crash victims. In early July, Satoru and Enomoto perform a small-scale space-time transfer and exchange bodies.

On January 11, 2012, just before 4PM, Satoru (who is staff at SPHIA) uses his ID card to climb the clock tower. As if lured, the shadow of "Someone" appears (timeline verbatim). Satoru falls from the tower, and at the same time his body's personality is changed--the pronoun he uses for "I" changes, and his memories are limited and no longer seem like his own--as if "Someone's" memories had been transplanted. Half an hour later, the space-time transfers begin (but Kokoro isn't inside the circle for the first transfer, so no "personality exchange" occurs). Starting from 8:02 PM, the personality exchanges occur involving Kokoro, Satoru, Hotori, Keiko, and the twins.

On January 17, 2012 after everyone (except for whoever of Keiko and Hotori isn't in Keiko's body) is saved, the final space-time transfer occurs, and the personality who had identified himself as Satoru since 4PM on January 11 is "lost from the world". The timeline floats the question of where that "Satoru" "went" before revealing that the shadow/Someone Satoru saw at 4PM is "already imprisoned in space-time", saying it may have been "Self". This fits with the parting words of Remember11, "it circulates through an incident. It is an infinity loop." On top of that, the timeline references "the eternally unescapable maze of memory", fitting with the game's tagline "the labyrinth of memories that is killing me". These references, while not directly, lead to the commonly accepted belief that the "Someone" and the "shadow" refer to Self, that Self was lured into Satoru's body somehow on 4PM, and that during the final transfer (Self being made aware that he's not in Satoru's body may also be related to it, since that affects him at some level; it's been shown that Self is sensitive to being made self-conscious in both the final moments of the game--"In an instant, the color drained out of my world."--and Self's violence toward the space-time transfer equipment) Self is sent somewhere to complete the loop, possibly to 4PM on January 11 although that breaks from the trend of all the other transfers. It's not clear if trapping Self was part of the purpose of the YUKIDOH plan, but that seems likely.

Typing that up took far more time and research than I anticipated, but I'm satisfied. The purpose of doing so was to find out what issues/problems remain speculative with no strong hints toward their answers. I'll try numbering them.

Spoiler for More spoilers:

1. How Satoru fell off the roof.

The timeline's terminology would lead me to believe that Self was the "shadow"/"Someone", but Satoru saw a human-like figure advance toward him, and Keiko has been called the shadow before. It might be that Keiko, with Self in her, pushed him off, or it might be that what he saw was his consciousness's representation of Self arriving. But even though he went to the roof at 4PM expecting something, he seemed to be unprepared for the shadow's appearance and called out to it. It's also a question of whether Self came directly from the final transfer as part of the infinity loop.

2. Whether the YUKIDOH plan has anything directly to do with Sayaka.

The TIPS say that everything was because of Sayaka's death, but that could just be a statement of cause and effect. However, it would make a good story if it did, especially given how Satoru says he'll protect her and how Satoru was motivated by her death. The hints that Sayaka's personality did not "die" normally, possibly connected to Satoru feeling partly responsible, leave a strong possibility of this. The fact that Kokoro shares a birthday with Satoru and Sayaka, and the fact that there are two sets of twins here (Utsumi's, and presumably Satoru and Sayaka) makes me want to believe there's a meaning behind everything. But we can't understand what will happen to Sayaka as a result of the plan--whether Satoru will "join" her as part of Self (VDZ's theory, if I understood it correctly), or whether she'll return in her own body or Keiko's or Kokoro's or in some other form--without knowing:

3. What the effect of Self being trapped is on the persons and bodies that experienced the personality exchanges, after the loop.

The central issue is what will happen to Satoru after Self leaves him at the end of the infinity loop. Put differently, where did Satoru go when Self entered his body, and if he's not still in there somewhere, will he return to his body once Self leaves? It's not explicitly hinted (an ironic term, but I'm using it) whether Self directly goes back to January 11 at 4PM, but if Self does exchange during the final transfer with that timeline's Satoru, then it seems like Satoru would return.

4. What causes the residual consciousness phenomenon, where is Self, and how Enamoto and Satoru exchanged personalities.

At first I led myself to believe that a part of Self being in someone causes a personality to stay where it is, and that there should always be another "empty shell" (from someplace where Self also held down a personality) transferred to the location of that body-less personality for the personality exchange to take place. But that seems to be a limited view--it would assume that all 6 participants have some Self in them. Why would Self be in the twins, or why would 2/3 bodies having Self be sufficient for the exchange to take place but not 1/3? Also, why would Satoru have strange memory issues but not Kokoro? Now I'm thinking it's more likely that Self is only in Keiko and Satoru, and that one personality being held down by "Self" blocks all the other personalities from rotating around. I don't know why Kokoro, Hotori, and (rather than Utsumi) the twins would be selected for the exchange, though I could put forward ideas that have no basis in anything, like their personalities being "weaker" (...) or sharing physical characteristics/birthdays. Oh, only needing 1 person to have Self could also explain how Satoru and Enamoto could exchange personalities when neither of them has Self--it might be possible to perform the experiment with Keiko unwittingly (such as by drugging the bodies of all 3 and having a third party operate things) and have certain people move between the transfer points so that the transfers can be stopped with Satoru and Enamoto still switched but Keiko still in her body. In any case, I might be completely off on a lot of this speculation that just came to my mind, but what I'm conveying above all else is my lack of clarity on where "Self" is.

5. The issue of Satoru's memories, a.k.a. (going by my interpretation of the timeline's words) how exactly Self's memories are "transplanted" into Satoru. Along with how Self affects/affected Keiko and Sayaka.

The memory loss, and the type of knowledge Self (in Satoru's body) has of Satoru and of other things, and the way that Self behaves when confronted by Enamoto... Does Self contain memories of various personalities inherently and randomly shuffle them when it's possessing someone, resulting in DID? Did it just briefly visit them and deposit various personalities before going elsewhere--possibly also taking away Sayaka's original personality--resulting in actual mental illness? Why would it screw over Keiko and Sayaka but behave so differently when in Satoru? All of those things are peculiar, and I don't understand the pattern. It's possible I'm missing something that would allow me to figure out part of it.

WOW, that was a huge post. Of course, I'm interested in any thoughts others might have.

Edit: Ugh... I just read earlier in the thread, where GundamAce posts about Nakazawa deliberately leaving the truth incomplete and apparently different staff members not having reconciled the omitted parts of the scenario. I didn't mind the openness of the ending, but knowing there literally is no truth is kind of a killjoy... Especially knowing the timeline is subjective.

Spoiler for Remember11, various:

Perhaps some staff members want Sayaka's body to have died and others didn't, or perhaps some staff members thought that Kokoro's true identity should be Sayaka and others didn't and that's why they made the birthdays the same.

I can't really take hints from the direction of that timeline anymore, if it's deliberately leaving red herrings to allow multiple theories. Sigh... Obviously, I'm still glad I played, but that doesn't encourage me to speculate.

[VDZ]

Spoiler:

If Self is really is 'the universe' as I think it is, you are mistaken on one thing:

There is no 'part of Self' in people. Rather, people are all 'a part of Self'. We think that we are individuals with different bodies, but the truth is we are all part of the same being, and the idea that we are trapped in a body is only an illusion which traps us in said body.

That said, we are trapped in the body we think we are trapped in. It could be speculated that those in which the illusion was strongest (and to whom the alternative was too different, hence similar people switching bodies) had their consciousness stay in their bodies even as they were being transferred in time. All speculation, of course, but I don't think we can get any closer than this with the information we have.

That said, trapping all of 'Self' in one body would be utter insanity. Although 6.5-billion personality DID would be fun to watch, I don't think it'd quite work.

The New Satoru probably isn't Self. Not only for the reason mentioned above, but also the fact that Self clearly influences Kokoro route while he was supposedly trapped in Satoru's body. In Kokoro's paradox bad end, you even directly get to see Self when according to your theory he would be eternally stuck in Satoru's body:

Through my weakening consciousness... I realized it.
That I had... returned to that day.
Kagome... kagome...
The song I suddenly began to chant.
I felt it.
Behind me was the shadow of the existence that had beckoned us into this situation.
In the evening... lit by the dawn...
It had neither volume nor mass.
――A point.
A hollow nothingness.
Who's that... behi――ind you?
And then, the nothingness swallowed me.

That, combined with the clear implications that New Satoru was born on January 11th (see the Utsumi dialogue), force me to conclude New Satoru can't be Self, or at the very least not more than what used to be a tiny part of it.

Satoru's memories:

"Enomoto" (actually Satoru): Even though the memories of That Guy were transplanted into you, you understand nothing, even now...
"Enomoto": You're pathetic, if I do say so myself.
New Satoru: Memories? Transplanted?
New Satoru: This abnormal memory of mine... as I thought, it was a memory transplant?

Without a doubt, the memories were transplanted on purpose. I think it would be reasonable to conclude that post-2012 Satoru (who is part of Self) left memories to be implanted in Satoru on the TD, which real Satoru implanted into his body before losing his consciousness - while his own memories would be gone as the original consciousness disappears, the artificial memories are implanted in the physical brain rather than being a natural part of the consciousness and remain in place.

[myopius]

Originally Posted by VDZ

Spoiler:

If Self is really is 'the universe' as I think it is, you are mistaken on one thing:

There is no 'part of Self' in people. Rather, people are all 'a part of Self'. We think that we are individuals with different bodies, but the truth is we are all part of the same being, and the idea that we are trapped in a body is only an illusion which traps us in said body.

That said, we are trapped in the body we think we are trapped in. It could be speculated that those in which the illusion was strongest (and to whom the alternative was too different, hence similar people switching bodies) had their consciousness stay in their bodies even as they were being transferred in time. All speculation, of course, but I don't think we can get any closer than this with the information we have.

Spoiler for Response:

That interpretation is certainly more in line with zero dimensions and (if I interpret the DID as Self's work) Self containing a multitude of personalities that are put into DID people. I guess that when I refer to Self, the aspect of Self that I'm focusing on is "Self" as it affects people, and is it gets "lured" and "trapped". If Self is the universe, then there's no way you could trap such a thing in an infinity loop, so in that case, the "Self" I refer to that gets trapped should probably be considered "some aspects of the phenomenon that is Self" (though it's not clear exactly what about Self got trapped, and thus not clear what will happen to the survivors after the infinity loop).

Spoiler:

That said, trapping all of 'Self' in one body would be utter insanity. Although 6.5-billion personality DID would be fun to watch, I don't think it'd quite work.

The New Satoru probably isn't Self. Not only for the reason mentioned above, but also the fact that Self clearly influences Kokoro route while he was supposedly trapped in Satoru's body. In Kokoro's paradox bad end, you even directly get to see Self when according to your theory he would be eternally stuck in Satoru's body:

That, combined with the clear implications that New Satoru was born on January 11th (see the Utsumi dialogue), force me to conclude New Satoru can't be Self, or at the very least not more than what used to be a tiny part of it.

Satoru's memories:

Spoiler:

Thanks for noticing that. To clarify, I don't think that Self is trapped in Satoru--I do think it's possible that the place Self goes after the final transfer is back to 4 PM on the 11th since that might wrap up the loop neatly, but I really have no solid idea. Rather, since Self is trapped in the infinity loop, Self is trapped within the space of the infinity loop and any number of the bodies within it, of which I initially picked Keiko and Satoru but can just as well add Kokoro to. The idea I put forward was that the personality exchange trios only required 1 person each to "have" (evidenced by DID or Self-related aspects of their inner narrative) Self, but adding more people doesn't hurt if they're part of a trio.

I have no problem "understanding" or "defining" elements of Kokoro's inner narrative as indicating she also has "part of" (or has a 'special relationship with") Self; I don't think that my interpretation even necessarily contradicts yours in her case, if I word it that way. In contrast, you understand Kokoro's perspective there as relating to the part of her mental/spiritual state that makes her receptive to the personality exchange. Your understanding/theory is definitely superior insofar it tackles the issues at hand, since it accounts for why the twins and Hotori would undergo the exchange. But I don't follow it because... although we could be said to hold the same view of Keiko, Satoru, and Kokoro... when it comes to the others, our different understandings of what qualifies as relating to "Self" (i.e. I don't believe Self is the universe, since as I said before you can't trap the universe in an infinity loop) result in a break.

In the end, it all relates to my own uncertainty about how I can understand "Self" as being capable of getting trapped, wanting to reconcile that with there being some meaning to a specific group of people being part of the transfers / infinity loop.

Spoiler:

Without a doubt, the memories were transplanted on purpose. I think it would be reasonable to conclude that post-2012 Satoru (who is part of Self) left memories to be implanted in Satoru on the TD, which real Satoru implanted into his body before losing his consciousness - while his own memories would be gone as the original consciousness disappears, the artificial memories are implanted in the physical brain rather than being a natural part of the consciousness and remain in place.

Spoiler:

I just reread a part of the timeline and now I think I understand well the basis for this theory. The line The empty shell (I) from here on suffers from an unnatural memory defect, as if "Someone's" memories had been transplanted. is really key. Your theory explains why that line says "the empty shell from here on"--implying that no personality entered his body, just memories. One possible issue I see with it is the fact that those memories are "Someone's" (a term I'd come to equate with Self). Actually, that's not an issue for you, because I think your understanding of Self would allow the "luring Self" and "luring the shadow of Someone" and "luring the shadow of Satoru" to all refer to the same thing. In any case, my understanding might (provisionally) be that those memories are Self's, where self is the zero-dimensional being that arrived right around 4 PM and exerted an influence over his mind... Actually, even if I state it like that, based on your understanding of "Self" that phrasing isn't invalid, just overly roundabout, right? In the end, your theory is really self-consistent, and the problem I have explaining the clock tower incident is that I'm unable to reconcile the effect "Self" had on Satoru with any previous effects of Self, although I wouldn't be surprised if that new effect was somehow connected to what being in the infinity loop does to Self.

To sum up that paragraph, your theory is good. If I understand it right, it depends on the terms Self and Satoru being interchangeable. Hmm... I don't find fault with my own understanding for being less incomplete, since interpreting Self as the universe and introducing a plot element (memory transplantation technology) that allows for a distinction between memory and personality will naturally make explaining the timeline's terminology and explaining Satoru's memory issues less difficult. Nor do I find fault with it, because it's clear to me that plot elements and crucial information of the sort you've devised are to some extent necessary for a full explanation, and would have been presented if there had been a third chapter of Rmemeber11. Moving past that... Actually, although I've been putting forward the idea that the universe can't be trapped in any infinity loop, I'm forgetting that if you're already interchanging Self and Satoru, the fact that "Self" is trapped doesn't have to refer to all of Self. Although it's a single term possessing seemingly contradictory definitions, that kind of usage isn't new in the field of spirituality.

[VDZ]

Spoiler:

One thing that keeps coming up in your post is referring to Self as being somewhere at some point in time. This cannot be correct, as self is a 0-dimensional being. Something one-dimensional exists at a certain varying X at a given moment in time. Something two-dimensional exists at a certain varying X and Y at a given moment in time, and the same is true with X, Y and Z for three-dimensional things and beings (you are sitting at your computer right now, while a couple of hours later you'll be elsewhere). A 0-dimensional being, on the other hand, is nowhere and everywhere at any given moment in time. Trying to say he is somewhere at some point in time is meaningless. As such, 'Self' itself cannot be trapped in any point or period of time.

For this person, there is no past.
For this person, there is no future.
To be more accurate, the concept of time does not exist for this person.
For this person, the past, the present, and the future
are all condensed into a single point.
Point.
Emptiness.
0th dimension.
Three concepts that overlap.
This person exists in a place devoid of everything.

'Post-2012 Satoru' and 'Self' are not completely interchangable; Post-2012 Satoru is part of Self. It's like how we're discussing this on the Games forum of AnimeSuki; we can say we're posting this on AnimeSuki, but not every post on AnimeSuki is also a Games forum post. Satoru can do things as 'Self', but interacting with 'Self' is not the same as interacting with Satoru.

[biar]

Glad to find a forum that people appreciate this game Made an account just to discuss here

I have a few questions though ,still trying to replay some of the bad endings

Spoiler:

1. If I'm correct, when when Satoru's consciousness returned to his original body, Iubushi Keiko's conciousness returned to her body right? She had those split personalities such as killing and seducing Satoru. Does that mean when Inubushi Keiko entered Hotori's corpse her consciousness still remain alive before the next space time switch? I know the conciousness remain at the same place, but entering a corpse will make the consciousness die imo...

And when Kokoro entered Sarutobi's body it was Hotori in Inubushi Keiko's body? How come she never spoke a word and became paranoid / angry sometimes? The baby's consciousness entering Inubushi Keiko's body during Kokoro's consciousness in SPHIA makes more sense imo since Hotori's an adult female with driver's license and should be able to talk imo...unless there are tips saying Hotori's muted or something.

When Satoru went crazy destroyed the living room shouldn't Inubushi Keiko be posssed by the baby as well? How come she's trying to restrain Satoru's body and stop him+protecting Uni in the room? Shouldn't she go crazy and be playful along with him?

2. About the canned biscuits being eaten by Kokoro....I entrusted the food to Yomogi during my 1st run but I'm pretty sure the Baby in Kokoro's body ate it since Kokoro has enough morals to not eat her companion's food...

3. About the guy with Shades....I had the white room ending and Satoru's plan ending and i'm pretty sure the man in shades is the real Satoru and the blonde guy is Enomoto. How come Satoru introduced himself as "Enomoto" when I first met him?

4. Satoru being cut in the livingroom after the earthquake..AFAIK Satoru's body wasn't attacked in neither Kokoro's or Satoru's conciousness / route (they realized the pain after entering the body). I got the bad ending of being murdered and it described the murderer as "Shadow" with "long hair" which is undoubtly Inubushi Keiko. The attacks however should've occurred when both Inubushi and Satoru's body were possessed by the twin baby's atm. How come Inubushi Keiko returned to her murderous self when Satoru returned to his body and got the bad ending?

Thanks in advance! Learned a lot from this thread

[GundamAce]

Originally Posted by biar

Glad to find a forum that people appreciate this game Made an account just to discuss here

I have a few questions though ,still trying to replay some of the bad endings

Spoiler:

1. If I'm correct, when when Satoru's consciousness returned to his original body, Iubushi Keiko's conciousness returned to her body right? She had those split personalities such as killing and seducing Satoru. Does that mean when Inubushi Keiko entered Hotori's corpse her consciousness still remain alive before the next space time switch? I know the conciousness remain at the same place, but entering a corpse will make the consciousness die imo...

And when Kokoro entered Sarutobi's body it was Hotori in Inubushi Keiko's body? How come she never spoke a word and became paranoid / angry sometimes? The baby's consciousness entering Inubushi Keiko's body during Kokoro's consciousness in SPHIA makes more sense imo since Hotori's an adult female with driver's license and should be able to talk imo...unless there are tips saying Hotori's muted or something.

When Satoru went crazy destroyed the living room shouldn't Inubushi Keiko be posssed by the baby as well? How come she's trying to restrain Satoru's body and stop him+protecting Uni in the room? Shouldn't she go crazy and be playful along with him?

2. About the canned biscuits being eaten by Kokoro....I entrusted the food to Yomogi during my 1st run but I'm pretty sure the Baby in Kokoro's body ate it since Kokoro has enough morals to not eat her companion's food...

3. About the guy with Shades....I had the white room ending and Satoru's plan ending and i'm pretty sure the man in shades is the real Satoru and the blonde guy is Enomoto. How come Satoru introduced himself as "Enomoto" when I first met him?

4. Satoru being cut in the livingroom after the earthquake..AFAIK Satoru's body wasn't attacked in neither Kokoro's or Satoru's conciousness / route (they realized the pain after entering the body). I got the bad ending of being murdered and it described the murderer as "Shadow" with "long hair" which is undoubtly Inubushi Keiko. The attacks however should've occurred when both Inubushi and Satoru's body were possessed by the twin baby's atm. How come Inubushi Keiko returned to her murderous self when Satoru returned to his body and got the bad ending?

Thanks in advance! Learned a lot from this thread

Spoiler for Questions:

1: Yeah, Inubushi survived in Hotori's body. I guess she thought it was all a dream, or part of her DID.

As for what happened to Hotori, she freaked out at times because she was absolutely confused about the situation. The TIPS reveal that Hotori was indeed mute because she was still in shock about the plane crash.

2: Yeah, it was the baby who ate the food. Just so you know, it was the male twin who was switching with Kokoro and Satoru, and the female twin who was switching with Inubushi and Hotori.

3: The timeline and VDZ's theory explains this better. Basically, Satoru and Enomoto switched consciousnesses sometime before January 2012. Therefore, Enomoto inhabited Satoru's body and Satoru inhabited Enomoto's body. So that was Enomoto who was talking, it was just through Satoru's body.

4: Not sure.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by biar

Spoiler:

4. Satoru being cut in the livingroom after the earthquake..AFAIK Satoru's body wasn't attacked in neither Kokoro's or Satoru's conciousness / route (they realized the pain after entering the body). I got the bad ending of being murdered and it described the murderer as "Shadow" with "long hair" which is undoubtly Inubushi Keiko. The attacks however should've occurred when both Inubushi and Satoru's body were possessed by the twin baby's atm. How come Inubushi Keiko returned to her murderous self when Satoru returned to his body and got the bad ending?

Spoiler:

You remember how Keiko asked which Satoru liked better, right? 'Stabbing, or being stabbed?' Keiko never finished her sentence, but she's the 'being stabbed' type.

It wasn't Keiko who murdered Satoru. There's another person with long hair in SPHIA, one who actually is out for blood: Utsumi Kali. If the main storyline isn't clear enough about it, bad ends actually show her murdering people in SPHIA. She will try to kill Keiko and anyone who stands in her way as she does so. In the dark, she probably mistook Satoru for Keiko and took her chance.

Originally Posted by biar

And when Kokoro entered Sarutobi's body

Suddenly Kokoro became the third hokage.

[biar]

Lol sorry about the typo, meant to type "Satoru" instead.

Parts of my first question still remain unanswered though about:

Spoiler:

Satoru's body freaking out in the living room (obvious the baby in his body since he calmed down after being embraced by Utsumi). Shouldn't Inubushi (Baby) also go bat shit insane with him? How come Inubushi sanely tried to restrain Baby Satoru and guide Yuni in his bedroom? Inubushi+Yuni became "closer than ever" ever since Baby Satoru's freak out.

[VDZ]

Can you tell me what day that happened? I'd need context to answer that.

[biar]

Originally Posted by VDZ

Can you tell me what day that happened? I'd need context to answer that.

Spoiler:

Last day (or 2nd last) of Satoru's chapter when he's observing the day he went berserk from the surveillance camera. He saw Inubushi approached him from the behind and tried to restrain him, then guided Yuni to his room to hide.

[VDZ]

I can't find anything like that in the script file. Maybe you remembered wrong and it was Utsumi instead of Keiko?

[biar]

Spoiler:

http://tlwiki.tsukuru.info/index.php...R11:SA5_09.txt

There it is "Hotori circled around behind "my body," wrapped her arms around its hips, and began pulling with all her might."

[VDZ]

I guess it's only a misunderstanding of Satoru then.

Spoiler:

Since he couldn't see it in detail, he would likely interpret any clinging to Satoru's body as 'pulling him away'. I don't have any other explanation - the body transfer happens right before he strikes Yuni.

[GundamAce]

Well, I'm going out on a limb here, and this may sound like a load of nonsense, but...

Spoiler for End-game spoilers:

Maybe the twin in Inubushi's body didn't want her brother to harm Yuni? Granted, this is a poor explanation, given that they had no problems with the murder of Enomoto, but I'm trying to think of it this way:

1. According to the "Remember11 Perfect Guide" that I have (it's in Japanese only), the baby spends most of the time at the cabin that day "shivering and crying". Up until that point, the conditions at the cabin, while not they're best, had been tolerable (the Perfect Guide notes that the male twin spent most of the 4th day sleeping), but the conditions at that point were downright inhumane, thus the baby eating the food. However, this still didn't help the fact that the cabin was still cold and cramped, and thus the male twin was very irritated by the time it transferred back to Satoru's body at that point in time. I think the cause of its rampage of that time was a combination of its colic along with its built up irritation.

Now then, keep in mind that at this point, we don't know how conscious Hotori was during all of this at the Akakura Circle. For all we know, Hotori could have been unconscious most of that time (which would explain how she didn't seem to notice Satoru when he found her). What I'm trying to say here is that if she was unconscious, the female twin may not have really even noticed the harsh conditions of that day, thus leading to the female twin having a calmer "mind" during the male twin's rampage (depending on how much of a mind you think babies have at that point).

Therefore, while the male twin was very agigitated and frustrated when it transferred to SPHIA, the female twin may have felt no irritation at all.

2. I am completely unaware of how babies "think", naturally, but I'd assume the very little morality they have at that point is in "black and white": that is, good and bad. While I'm not going to pretend I know everything that happened while the female fetus was in Inubushi's body (the Perfect Guide has a time table that shows everything the male twin was doing over the week, but not for the female twin), but I would assume that she saw Yuni at least several times during her time at SPHIA, and thus she would associate him as "a good person". Babies are pretty quick in adapting to other people depending on their treatment- usually, as long as someone else treats them nicely, even if they don't innately know the person like their parents, they still tend to be calm and can feel a sense of "security" with them. What I'm trying to say is that I think by Day 5, the female twin had identified Yuni as a "good person", or "someone she felt safe with".

Now then, as for Enomoto, when the babies transfer, what they see is "Enomoto attacking Satoru". When Satoru transfers, it seems to be just as he lands on the floor, at that exact moment. Now then, I'm assuming that "Inubushi's body" was there because she heard the struggle in the basement, and went to see what was going on. When the transfer occured, what the female twin saw was "an unknown man trying to attack her brother". As we saw from earlier segments, the two twins can identify each other even in their different bodies, judging by the fact they slept next to each other at one point. And so, she identified Enomoto as "a bad person", and in order to protect her twin brother, she tackled him. After that, the male twin took the knife and killed Enomoto, though it was just a game to him, and I'm assuming the female twin knew the danger was over, so it turned to playing in Enomoto's blood.

(Now then, I'm not 100% sure about the above paragraph, as Satoru was notably disoriented after he fell to the ground, so I don't know for sure whether Inubushi's tackle occured before or after the transfer. I'll just go with the assumption that it was after the transfer.)

What I'm trying to say is that, despite how low a baby's intelligence is, it can still identify people as being "good" or "bad" with its limited senses. Therefore, the female twin felt that Yuni was a "good person", while Enomoto was a "bad person". So when the male twin was attacking Yuni, a "good person" during his rampage, the female twin tried to stop him because Yuni was a "good person", and so there was no reason to attack him, unlike with Enomoto, who was a "bad person", and the female twin didn't really pay attention to her brother's murder of Enomoto anyway.

Well, that was very long winded and I think it's mostly just BS, but it's the best theory I could come up with.

[4as]

Originally Posted by biar

Glad to find a forum that people appreciate this game Made an account just to discuss here

Just a quick question, have you played Ever17?

[biar]

Originally Posted by 4as

Just a quick question, have you played Ever17?

Yes I did, I am however one of the minorities who thinks 11 >17 due to the suspense, murder, flow of the game etc...Ever 17's True Ending was the real prize but the flow of the game was really boring imo....

I haven't found an English version of Never 7 though and I don't have a NDS for 999. Would love to play them.

I'm a big fan of Mystery / murder visual novels though and played Eve Burst Error too.

Would be nice if there are more recommendation of these types of games.