Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Discussion / Poll

[viperdk1]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It's interesting to see that people criticized the Psycho-Pass end for being predictable and safe, yet this one was equally predictable and safe. The revelation that queerrats were humans was predicted long ago, and Yakomaru's objective was always clear. They have been enslaved to the human beings and wanted to break free of them the entire time. And guess what?

Spoiler for PP spoiler:

Just like PP, the society isn't toppled down at all either . Both Psycho-Pass and SSY literally had the same ending, but one got criticized for playing it safe. This is just me griping, but I find it amusing nonetheless.

Anyhow, I thought that was a very strong ending for the series, but the consistency of the show on a week to week basis is not as strong as it could have been (Relatively speaking of course.). A lot of episodes the art direction is very interesting, but a lot of others there's a disappointing drop in quality. The setting of this show ended up being more interesting than the characters of themselves. Saki kind of regressed a bit in the last arc, and while Satoru was always good, Shun was severely underdeveloped and was hard to take too seriously as a deep connection to Saki. Kiroumaru and Squealer felt more interesting to me than basically every human.

Sometimes the scene transitioning also seemed very wonky. I remember some particularly bad ones in episodes 5-6. One example is where they saw Kiroumaru's boat and then all of sudden they cut away to them being on the boat and a conversation already took place. Sometimes it did well to make the show feel brisk and easy to watch, but it sometimes felt a little jarring.

The logic of the world is not always perfect either. The idea that someone couldn't sacrifice themselves to kill someone is still ill-explained when. apparently, inadvertently killing someone will still kill you (As illustrated in this episode). I don't follow the logic here, and it makes death feedback feel a little bit too convenient of a tool at times.

I was going to post a comment on here about this, but I don't need to - I can just look at the post I've quoted and say "pretty much that".

Alright, I'll admit that I didn't see the queerats being 'evolutions' of humanity and molerats . I literally convulsed when I saw the punishment Squealer was receiving - and to see his 'form' (if you can call it that), being nothing more a tuft of flesh with the symbol atop his head was rather repulsing too.

I'd say SSY screwed itself around too much. The 2nd ending was heavily out of place (hell, the Maria part talking about how she loved Saki was just as confusing and tacked on). The time skips during the series...I definitely appreciate the reasoning for it, but it almost feels like I've watched three different anime in one series. Some of the flashbacks in the earlier episodes made no sense to me when I first watched them, and I was rather off put by some of the rather ridiculous anime style changes in medias res (when a certain artist was involved in the drawing of the episodes).

This is an anime I'd probably need to watch again to really understand the points I've missed. I suppose the synopsis threw me somewhat as to the true nature of the anime ("In the future Japan has become a fractured country, and small towns now exist. The rulers of this world have the cursed power of Telekinesis. When an incident occurs, 5 children come to realize the world is not as it seems, and learn the bloody history behind this world. These 5 children unite and help the world as it falls into a downward spiral of chaos."). Based on that, I expected it to be something similar to the Persona 4 game - i.e. a group of children taking on something far bigger than them, with all five children taking a full part in their journey to the end.

Perhaps I were to watch this again, maybe it would rank far higher for me. 10/10 for the ending, but I'd reckon just an 8/10 for the series as a whole.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Oddly enough the only thing he probably didn't lie about was the "we are humans" line. It seems ironically fitting.

I do think he actually lied very little; instead he just misled them with mostly the truth. But what's most striking about that "we are humans" line, to me, is that it shows how bitter Squealer is. Kiroumaru would never have used that line of argument. Kiroumaru is a proud bakenezumi, no matter his DNA. See?

The true tragedy (in the classical sense) is Squealer's, and his tragic flaw was that he couldn't take account of what they were and tried to be "human" (reading human documents and emulating them). Until the end he couldn't let go of that idea. When he screamed that line, I, too, was mad at the humans around him, but I was also a bit sad about all the bitterness in Squealer about that aspect. He's internalised the power relations so much, that all he can think of is becoming human. We will only know that we're equal when we behave and act like you.

Kiroumaru is a bakenezumi, and that is that. He's at peace with what he is. He doesn't want to be oppressed, but he's not bitter at being what he is. Basically, he doesn't have Squealer's inferiority complex.

The kicker, here, though, is the biology of mole rats. Equality? How can you talk about equality and bow to a Queen? That's what makes the situation so insiduous. To be a bakenezumi and accept that inherently means bowing to a queen. There's no way around that. Remember the scene where Yakomaru (as he called himself back then) said that he thought the Queen was "happier" lobotomised? There's no way he actually believed that, but I always felt he wanted to believe that. The way he said it just sounded, to me, like he wanted to convince himself more than Saki and Satoru. That's sort of consistent:

1. If you value equality, you cannot bow to a Queen.
2. Your biology forces you to bow to a Queen.
3. The only option is to enslave your Queen.
4. But you cannot do that if you value equality.

Basically, Squealer's solution is to reject the biology that forces such an unfair set of values on him. He's extremely bitter. His cry of "We are human" is actually a rejection of what he is. Bakenezumi were humans once, but they no longer are.

The point is (as Chain Legacy said) it doesn't matter whether they're human or not. You can communicate as equals if you try; that should be enough. I'm sure Kiroumaru could think in those terms. Squealer couldn't. His cry of "We are humans," showed that he couldn't conceive of dignity as a bakenezumi. His inferiority complex was projected onto his entire species: get rid of humans, become humans, pretend the past didn't happen.

I'm not sure my point comes across, so let me try with a reply to another post:

Originally Posted by sikvod00

Did anyone else get the Roots vibe in the trial scene, when he was rejecting the name his master's "graciously" gave him?
Judge: Your name is Toby. Say your name, boy!"

In a sense, that's true. But there's one important difference: "Squealer" is also a name his human masters have given him. We've heard him give orders to his troops; do you think any of us could even pronounce his bakenezumi name? Is there even a way to write it down? Would we even recognise it as speech if he had "squealed" it at us?

What I really got, here, is: "Yakomaru" is the saviour of his people; "Squealer" is a failure who messed it up. To me, Squealer's insistence on "Squealer" meant more "Keep your mock honour to yourself. Only one capable of defeating you is worthy of that name. Call me Squealer like you used to. In the end, that's more honest. And don't I deserve it for failing to kill you all?"

The general point of the show is looking at the in-group/out-group dynamic. And how in a power relationship the underpriviledged out-group often longs to be part of the ingroup, but that type of thinking doesn't work. Bakenezumi aren't going to be human, no matter how much they try. Squealer, screaming "we are humans", does look like a clown. No, Squealer, you're a bakenezumi. We might discuss, taxinomically, whether you're still hominids, but that's a waste of time, too. You're a bakenezumi, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. It does mean that you have to deal with the "queen problem". Tough luck, but you can't change the past. Rather than pretending to be a human, be a proud bakenezumi, and don't give up hope that humans and bakenezumi can live together as equals. (Oh, it's a fool's hope, I agree.)

It struck me that Mr. Bakenezumi Fanatic of episode 20 talked about human genocide, but that he still talked in terms of equality (rather than superiority). And that sort of ideological talk would have been passed down from Yakomaru. Ultimately, that's Squealer's tragedy: he wanted equality, but gave up hope. Mr. Bakenezumi Fanatic: "We should have been equal." Should have been.

Saki will make things better? Maybe, if she gets it. That scene where Saki asks Squealer to apologise... I saw that as a tragic failure: two people who, in their hearts, would actually like to apologise to each other find themselves in a position where they find it impossible. Such a sad, sad scene...

I wonder if you guys can tell that I'm absolutely and utterly happy with the ending. The perfect way for the series to end.

[DreamSeeker]

So the scientists, so prevent PK crime and death, inputted attack inhibition and death feedback. But...wait...if they could mutate all the non-PK users into bakenezumi, couldn't they have given them death feedback and attack inhibition too? Either way should prevent war.

Still...wow, mutating all the non-PK with gene manipulation. After hundreds of years of conflict and over 90% of the world's population dying but...hoo. I'm not sure what it would even be like living with that sort of history in your past. They didn't just kill all the non-PK humans but....

Nice world-building, SSY.

Best bet is that after the scientists made sure that all the PK users were given death feedback. The non PK users were in the middle of a major attack on the now powerless to stop them PK users. So before a major act of genocide happened they made the only decision they could make in short period of time. And that was to alter their DNA to the point that they couldn't be considered human and then alter their history so the PKers wouldn't think of them as such

[Izayoi]

Wow, this ending was very well done. I especially like the quote their put at the end. Sometimes I wish this series had a bigger budget because they definitely deserve it.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I do think he actually lied very little; instead he just misled them with mostly the truth. .

Mislead or lying that is pretty much what Squealer did the whole show. Whether he was telling the truth in this last episode about his reasons for attacking is at the very least ambiguous. And it could be partially true as well. And certainly whatever Squealer's personal reasons what he was saying to Saki and Satoru about the PK users did of course have truth in it.

But keep in mind even Satoru asks him "did you not just want power" and Saki tells him he was always a liar.

I think the line though about them being human was the first time Squealer was telling the full truth and when he told the truth he was laughed at. This is what I feel is ironic.

I understand & agree with your point about being proud of who you are (a monster rat) but that line was also a reveal for the audience, so it is Squealer speaking the truth.

Squealer" is also a name his human masters have given him

I don't recall the series ever saying that actually. But 25 weeks is a long time and I might have just forgotten.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My only major issue in this finale was Squealer's "punishment". That does make the cantus-using humans that sat in judgement of him appear... truly monstrous. Arguably beyond redemption.

I understand that Squealer's war crimes are quite severe, particularly from the perspective of his human enemies. And yet, there are certain punishments that are so cruel and harsh that it taints those who mete out the punishment. That is definitely true here, and it slightly undermines an otherwise brilliant and hopeful ending, imo.

I think that was kind of the point, though. I don't think it puts the humans who passed the judgement beyond redemption, but the cruelty of the sentence is intended to make one recoil and feel disgusted - like Saki did. On the other hand, the deep-seated desire to make the perpetrator suffer the worst pain possible is also a very human reaction, and these people here have the means to do it. (In the book when Saki expresses her doubt about the cruelty of the punishment, Satoru notes that nothing less would satisfy the people's desire for revenge. "Listen to that sound," he says while people are clamoring inside. On the other hand, while Saki receives a punishment for killing Squealer she says nobody really blamed her - she guesses that with their rage mostly gone, people were uncomfortable with having a creature around them that keeps on suffering.)

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

In a sense, that's true. But there's one important difference: "Squealer" is also a name his human masters have given him. We've heard him give orders to his troops; do you think any of us could even pronounce his bakenezumi name? Is there even a way to write it down? Would we even recognise it as speech if he had "squealed" it at us?

I don't know... I don't remember how it was in the anime, but in the book at least he asked Satoru and Saki to call him "Squealer", as that's the closest approximation to his name that humans can pronounce. So I think we can assume that he thinks of it as his his "real" name.

But in any case, I love the "We are humans!" line. There's so much in it, and in a way this is the "climax" of the story.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I wonder if you guys can tell that I'm absolutely and utterly happy with the ending. The perfect way for the series to end.

It was, wasn't it.

(By the way, I love reading these interpretations.)

[-Sho-]

Despite some quality drop , it was a satisfying ending(yes predictable but still great) I liked this show till the end.
I felt sorry for Squealer and had anger on cancus users when they were laughing. It shows how humanity are so twisted.

Really a good job can't wait for the next ufo.

[Lenneth4]

One of the best ending of that season
It's beats PP's finale

Shin sekai yori admirably shows how FUCKED UP mankind is and how stupid making war is.

perfect animation on the beginning (kiromaru showing with his hand was a bit too fast in the timing), perfect ending for this awesome series.

[DragoonKain3]

Wait a frigging minute, wasn't the reason why Squealer's alliance of colonies successful against the might of Kiroumaru's was because they had a 'secret weapon', aka. Maria's child? Why no death feedback then and only now?

And if Kiroumaru went on an expedition in Tokyo so many years ago for a way to fight against the humans, why didn't he just join Squealer this time around? They have the exact same motivations in the end, just that Kiro was unlucky enough not to find anything while Squealer got extremely lucky raising the kid.

Maybe they have explained this, but either I must have glossed it over or they didn't particularly put any emphasis within the anime. Which saddens me, as I believe they could've had another episode just so they could've cleared confusing topics like this up by putting more time in explaining it.


Still, impressive performance by Squealer's VA. The delivery of such lines like "My name is Squealer!" and "I am human!" resonates in me even now.

And frigging finally, a happy ending for at least one osananajimi couple. The marriage ceremony looked way cute! Though Satoru is waaay to slow, only having their first born sometime in their thirties, when Maria/Mamoru had theirs in half their age.

Lastly, I dunno why people are so pessimistic in that "No one in humanity but Saki/Satoru learned anything!". After all, every many mile journey starts with a single step, and Saki/Satoru still hoping things would have changed by their child grows up means they are still trying even then. And this for me touches my heart, since they are the forerunners of this yet unheard of equality movement, when they will most probably face opposition along the way with most likely nary a sight of success within their lifetime.

Did equality movements like Women's Rights and the fight against Racial Discrimination happen overnight? Hell no (heck I doubt that those who started to fight even saw any major change within their lifetimes) and SSY is just but the start of yet another one of these.

[Triple_R]

Perhaps the ultimate lesson of this anime is that maybe it's good that we humans have the limitations that we do, and don't have super powers like cantus users.

With such super powers, the temptation to act on immediate emotional impulse rather than on careful consideration may overwhelm us, precisely because super powers better enables one to act on such emotional impulse.


Saki is trying to bring a more human sense of restraint and balance to her people, and hopefully that will moderate them and humanize them in time.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't recall the series ever saying that actually. But 25 weeks is a long time and I might have just forgotten.

They didn't. I just assumed that was the case, because "Squealer" has human phonetics. But:

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I don't know... I don't remember how it was in the anime, but in the book at least he asked Satoru and Saki to call him "Squealer", as that's the closest approximation to his name that humans can pronounce. So I think we can assume that he thinks of it as his his "real" name.

That makes sense (I'd have to go back and see, too). Got something to rethink. In that case, I agree with sikvod00 more than I think I did.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Whether he was telling the truth in this last episode about his reasons for attacking is at the very least ambiguous. And it could be partially true as well. And certainly whatever Squealer's personal reasons what he was saying to Saki and Satoru about the PK users did of course have truth in it.

But keep in mind even Satoru asks him "did you not just want power" and Saki tells him he was always a liar.

I think the line though about them being human was the first time Squealer was telling the full truth and when he told the truth he was laughed at. This is what I feel is ironic.

I'm having a really hard time to reply to this, because it's so difficult. I get what you're saying about the irony, but I felt that way about him since the beginning. He didn't have to lie. He knew how humans thought about bakenezumi and could just place strategic truths. But even that's not really what I think. Let me try:

When Squealer calls himself a coward in the beginning, it's quite clearly a manipulative move: he knows how humans like to look at themselves and uses that. But how else can he talk to them? What's the alternative? He says what they want to hear, sure. But is it true? Is it a lie?

A lie is an untruth. A lie can be found out. In the same way that the people laughed at him for saying he's human, Saki and Satoru accepted his arguments that he's just a cowardly bakenezumi, and how did he even endanger them. They're gods after all.

Would a coward risk the wrath of a god over the wrath of a fellow bakenezumi? As an untruth, it's so blatantly obvious, so hard to miss, that I'd say it's not a lie. Whether or not Squealer actually thought of himself as a coward at that time is besides the point.

So in this episode, when Satoru says "Did you not just want power?" he may be right, or he may be wrong. The real question (and suspect its one that Satoru is too proud to face) is why he wants power. It would be more convenient for Satoru to believe that Squealer's motivation is anything but noble. That way he can pass on the villain card. Nobody wants to be stuck with that one.

I'd say that, rather than honest, I think Squealer was, for the first time, sincere. Why? Because he's got nothing left to lose. The worst is coming and I doubt he has any illusions as to what he can expect. This is a mindset neither Saki nor Satoru can understand. "Didn't you just just want power?" is a ridiculous thing to ask, if you have all the power without even trying.

The same thing with Saki: asking him to apologise? Really?

In the end, when Saki learns about the bakenezumi having human ancestors (or - less likely - tree ancestors Well, there was that branch-bakenezumi among the tsuchigumo...) she's shocked and thinks something along the lines of "and we killed so many of them...".

Why is this important?

Squealer literally can't tell them the truth, because they don't want to hear it. It's not just the people in the gallery, laughing. Saki and Satoru, too. Apparantly, killing a bakenezumi is a worse crime if they're decendants of human ancestors. (Actually, together, Saki and Satoru might get it; Saki is emotionally able to embrace it and Satoru gets it intellectually; if they could learn from each other...)

In a sense, both Squealer and Krioumaru would have used human arrogance against them; but Squealer basically rubbed their faces in it - they had to willfully ignore it. Kiroumaru is a conservative, which flatters humans. Squealer is postmodern rat; a distortion mirror. No wonder people like Kiroumaru better.

Not sure I'm making much sense...

[Lenneth4]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps the ultimate lesson of this anime is that maybe it's good that we humans have the limitations that we do, and don't have super powers like cantus users.

With such super powers, the temptation to act on immediate emotional impulse rather than on careful consideration may overwhelm us, precisely because super powers better enables one to act on such emotional impulse.


Saki is trying to bring a more human sense of restraint and balance to her people, and hopefully that will moderate them and humanize them in time.

Well , it's depends on how you you see you , yourself and others
Cantus is just a image to me , as well the beast too

Mankind killed people based solely on their look , cantus could be assimiled to massive weapon destruction and yet ,

The people who died of this said they were human too and the people who killed mocked them (and mock them nowadays)

To me this anime shows how cruel the human can be. It shows that humans just need superficial excuse to kill, they dont even try to understand other's feeling.

The ending with saki save the humans of the anime (a bit)
To me saki must have apologize to Squealer before finishing him.

That's my was my 2 cents.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Wait a frigging minute, wasn't the reason why Squealer's alliance of colonies successful against the might of Kiroumaru's was because they had a 'secret weapon', aka. Maria's child? Why no death feedback then and only now?

Because the kid didn't kill anyone from Kiroumaru's army. S/he just took their weapons, and after that Squealer's army butchered them.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

And if Kiroumaru went on an expedition in Tokyo so many years ago for a way to fight against the humans, why didn't he just join Squealer this time around? They have the exact same motivations in the end, just that Kiro was unlucky enough not to find anything while Squealer got extremely lucky raising the kid.

Kiroumaru has a fundamentally different image of how bakenezumi should operate than Squealer. He's an old-fashioned conservative, thinks of Squealer as a monster who destroys the order of their society. And progressive Squealer thinks Kiroumaru is an old fart who is bogged down in outdated ideas. Unfortunately the anime didn't address Kiroumaru's side of the issue, but at least hinted at it when Squealer explained his motivations.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Though Satoru is waaay to slow, only having their first born sometime in their thirties, when Maria/Mamoru had theirs in half their age.

To be fair it wasn't Satoru's fault. In the book Saki says that for a long time she was afraid to have children, but now she feels children are hope, and she believes that it will grow up to be strong no matter what. (By the way, Saki herself was born when her mother was about the same age as her.)

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Lastly, I dunno why people are so pessimistic in that "No one in humanity but Saki/Satoru learned anything!". After all, every many mile journey starts with a single step, and Saki/Satoru still hoping things would have changed by their child grows up means they are still trying even then.

Yeah, I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

So in this episode, when Satoru says "Did you not just want power?" he may be right, or he may be wrong. The real question (and suspect its one that Satoru is too proud to face) is why he wants power. It would be more convenient for Satoru to believe that Squealer's motivation is anything but noble. That way he can pass on the villain card. Nobody wants to be stuck with that one.

I think the question is the same, either way... Did you do this to satisfy your lust for power? Did you want power to satisfy your lust for it? He's not considering other options because he can't really come up with anything. Squealer denies that his actions were a result of foolish pride, but also rejects Kiroumaru's idea of bakenezumi living to serve their colony and their queen. So what else is there that can drive someone to ruthlessly sacrifice hundreds, if not thousands of his own kind, never mind all those innocent humans? What else, other than the pure, shameless ambition that Kiroumaru spoke of? (Although tbh I think both Satoru and Saki are made a bit too naive in this scene to emphasize what Squealer has to say.)

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Apparantly, killing a bakenezumi is a worse crime if they're decendants of human ancestors.

It's worse because they have a strong taboo against killing humans, to the point where there are aversion mechanics coded into their biology. So yes, bakenezumi are bakenezumi, nobody killed them for fun, but it was necessary. But to kill humans - that's an entirely different matter. If they accept that bakenezumi are humans, they will die the death of shame.

[Triple_R]

Well, in fairness, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I remember some people saying things like "bi Laden should be tortured to death for what he did!"

Like kuromitsu wrote, I think it's mainly 'heat of the moment' that makes some people think this way, but unfortunately the cantus-users of SSY have the ability to enact the worst punishments the mind can conceive of in that very 'heat of the moment'. Maybe humanity is better off without such power. Maybe it's good that execution is considered more or less the worst punishment we'd inflict on someone. Bin Laden was ultimately taken out in a raid by US Soldiers, which is obviously more merciful (and humane) than the punishment Squealer received.

In fairness to Saki, Squealer was ultimately responsible for the deaths of her parents and her best friend. Saki has as much reason to hate Squealer as anybody does. The fact that she cringed at the punishment given to him the very hour it happened speaks well of her, imo. I don't expect her to actually apologize to him on top of that.

[Lenneth4]

To me she should have apologized to him because he is like her
he is a human , refusing to apologize is refusing to consider him like a human and respecting him for what he is.
He killed his parents and all , that's sad but they didnt recognize him as a human being and mocked him


to me ,





it's way way way worse than kill someone.

[kk2extreme]

So Shun reincarnate as Saki and Satoru's child

[Clodial]

Seriously, IT NEEDS MORE GONG in that second movement... and it went on for 2 measures longer than the normal version of the Second movement of the New World Symphony... Although, now I like the song again... It doesn't scare the bejesus out of me...

[Master_Yoma]

Now that was a twist ending

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

In the book Saki says that for a long time she was afraid to have children, but now she feels children are hope, and she believes that it will grow up to be strong no matter what. (By the way, Saki herself was born when her mother was about the same age as her.)

The anime did say an object of fear changes into one of hope. I assumed they were talking about the child.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, in fairness, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I remember some people saying things like "bi Laden should be tortured to death for what he did!"

I guess it is a common albeit upsetting response. And they really did think up the most horrific punishment.

In this case you also have the added weight that while Squealer might have been a bastard what he was saying about the monster rats and PK users happened to be right and the PK users could care less. The status quo has not changed.

Of course Squealer probably picked the absolute worst method to bring understanding and change.

Hopefully Saki, Satoru, future PK users, and monster rat societies can do better.

[4Tran]

Marvelous episode! It redeems the weaknesses of the last few episodes, and truly elevates the whole work. Moreover, it imparts a lot of thought-provoking questions that don't give rise to ready answers.

Saki proves to be an able protagonist, and Squealer proves to be the best character in the show. In the end, he's actually right, but there's no way that the "humans" can acknowledge that.