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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-12-16, 18:16 | Link #401 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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With KM Naruto, you have to consider the two ways of drawing out the cloak. In Naruto's battle against Sasuke at the VoTE he drew out the One-Tailed Cloak all on his own and retained complete control over himself (albeit somewhat more feral), so we can say that Naruto's power during that battle was entirely his own. With the Four-Tailed, Six-Tailed and Eight-Tailed incidents, however, Naruto was clearly utterly mindless and under the Kyuubi's complete control. If we're splitting hairs you can say Naruto's body was behind those actions, but his mind definitely wasn't, and I think that's the key here. Consider Ichigo's final battle with Ulquiorra in Bleach, when he was completely taken over by his Hollow. Would you still say that was Ichigo, and that he, and not his Hollow, won that battle? I consider Naruto and the Kyuubi to be a very similar thing. |
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2011-12-16, 19:32 | Link #402 | ||
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2011-12-16, 20:30 | Link #403 | |
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seriously, just to make this clear in one sentence, you are refuting that SM naruto beat 5 paths and then deva pain, which is EXACTLY what happened |
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2011-12-16, 21:01 | Link #404 | |
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2011-12-16, 21:53 | Link #405 |
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Itachi-San, I think the fact that nobOdy agrees with you about sm naruto being more powerful then pain says it all, hell you said sm naruto is stronger then nagato himself. Enough said.
King, when I see the 4th fight I may bump him up. But as of now sasori comes off more accomplished. As far as mei is concerned she fought a completely depleted sasuke who could only muster up an incomplete susanoo, if she ran into him at full power I imagine that skirmish would look a lot different. You're also ignoring the fact sasori let chiyo and Sakura win. In fact as far as the manga goes he has never been beaten, both of his losses have been him choosing to not kill his grandma and allowing himself to be sealed. |
2011-12-16, 22:01 | Link #406 | |
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2011-12-16, 22:19 | Link #407 |
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I'm not saying she can't burn through susanoo, I was just saying sasuke was severely weakened when they fought. However, there are plenty of one hit kills like hers, so even though her jutsu is powerful, a "I can't get hit by that" type of technique is not uncommon in naruto. Even though I believe mei could burn through susanoo, madara made no effort to try and stop her or any of the kages attacks. I got the sense he was gauging their powers, more then mei caught him off guard. Besides, every high level ninja who has gone up against susanoo has gotten past it, danzo, mei, gaara, tsuchikage, raikage. It's not so much an impenetrable defense as it is a counter attack. I mean, the opponent is incased inside a huge ethereal juggernaut that defends him, and can crush your whole body with one blow.
Last edited by Sasukemaru; 2011-12-16 at 22:33. |
2011-12-17, 01:11 | Link #408 | ||||||
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You think fighting an entire village and shortening your own lifespan does not exhaust you in the slightest?
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Last edited by ZGoten; 2011-12-17 at 01:24. |
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2011-12-17, 14:23 | Link #409 | |||||||||
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edit: here's an example. take juugo for instance. when he goes into beast mode vs raikage is that no longer juugo because he doesn't have control of himself? is that not juugo's power level since he's out of control? Last edited by itachi-san314; 2011-12-17 at 14:34. |
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2011-12-17, 14:42 | Link #410 | ||||
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So, I really don't think the control issue is moot, because unless it's Naruto pulling off these moves it's not really him. The best we can really say of his Six-Tailed Mode is that it is a power he can theoretically have, should he gain control over it. Edit: Quote:
Last edited by Akashin; 2011-12-17 at 14:44. Reason: Stuff |
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2011-12-17, 14:59 | Link #411 | |||||
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2011-12-17, 15:19 | Link #412 | ||||
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And as far as I know, it was never up for debate that Naruto won the battle against Pain. It would be stupid to claim he didn't. But then, Sasuke won the battle against Itachi too, and that doesn't by any stretch make Sasuke the stronger (though admittedly, the conditions of their battle were different). I was under the impression that the argument was that Naruto winning does not immediately make him the stronger of the two. Personally, I like what somebody else said on the subject: If you were to put Naruto and the Six Paths in an isolated area and pit them against one another, with no pre-planning and zero knowledge of eachother's abilities, Pain would win with ease. Quote:
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2011-12-17, 15:36 | Link #413 |
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I don't think so, since it is Bee, who decides to use that power and who learned how to tame the eighttails in the first place. Naruto can't say the same about himself. He just unwillingly enters a state he needs help from others getting out of, if he doesn't want to lose his consciousness forever. Whether or not you can count Kyuubi's power in that fight as Naruto's own or not is irrelevant though. It is as simple as that: Without Minato's seal, the ninetails would walk the earth again and Naruto would be pretty much dead. I don't see anyone being able to reseal Kyuubi's eighttailed mode, not even Yamato. And that's why without help, Naruto wouldn't have won that battle. Well, it's one reason anyway . . . another one being that without the slug's information about Pain, Naruto would have probably been captured within seconds. But apparently you believe otherwise, so I'm just going to leave it at that. Looks like there are many different ways you can interpret this manga.
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2011-12-17, 15:43 | Link #414 | ||||
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2011-12-17, 15:58 | Link #415 | |||
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Personally, I don't think the difference in power between Naruto and the Six Paths is nearly as drastic as some have said (and Sage Mode does indeed make Naruto a relatively fair match for Pain, for as long as it lasts), but I would put Pain above Naruto in overall power. Quote:
This is getting redundant though, given that we've already agreed to disagree on the issue of control being a deal breaker, so I'll drop it. |
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2011-12-17, 16:26 | Link #416 | |||||
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one of the main point's of the fight, in my opinion, was to show that naruto and pain were pretty much equal in power/mental fortitude at that specific time, but naruto was just a tiny bit better and like always had that final push left when his opponent was spent. its very similar to when naruto fought with gaara in the first series. Quote:
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mostly everyone prepares for battle in some way. there are intel divisions in every village for this exact purpose. Quote:
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2011-12-17, 16:33 | Link #417 | |
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1) juugo is out of control but its one consciousness so that's ok 2) bee and 8 tails are 2 consciousnesses but he's in control so it's ok 3) naruto and 9 tails are 2 consciousnesses and out of control so its not ok lolz. i think that sums it up |
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2011-12-17, 16:53 | Link #418 | |
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I'm not calling any of this a bad thing, as I said, just pointing out that it does make a difference and that Naruto wouldn't have done as well without it. The original argument was that Naruto entering the battle prepared helped him win in the end where his raw power would have failed him, and that's true. |
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2011-12-17, 19:39 | Link #419 |
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I will use spaces to illustrate the difference between individuals. The more space denotes the gap in overall strength. This is how it should be ranked IMO.
1. Sage 6 paths( Made the Moon enough said) *****EDO Rinnegan Mokuton Immortal Madara (no "will of fire" so not at Sage level)***** 2.Tobi rinnegan Mokuton (Too many Buffs too many extra eye to use izanagi) 3.Sarutobi prime (He took on 2 Hokages and orochimaru at age 80+....damn!!) 4.Minato 5. Hashirama 6. Ems madara 7. Ms Izuna 8. Nagato 9. 3rd raikage (you Can't hurt his body) 10.itachi ( the Items his Susanoo have give big buff) 11.tobi 12.2nd tsuchikage 13.2nd mizukage 14.3rd tsuchikage 15.4th raikage 16. 2nd Hokage 17.EMS Susake 18.killer bee 19.nine tails cloak naruto 20.5th mizukage 21. kisame (with Samehada) 22.hanzo 23. orochimaru 23. jiraiya 24.Tsunade 25.Sarutobi old 26.sage naruto 27.ms sasuke 28.danzo 29.ms kakashi 30.gai 8 gates 31.kabuto oro DNA 32.sasori 33.3rd kazekage 34.4th mizukage 35.gaara (w/o Shukaku) ****NON Kage Level**** 36.kakashi 37.hebi sasuke 38.deidara 39.kakuzu
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2011-12-17, 22:15 | Link #420 | |||||
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What we (well, at least I) are trying to establish here is if you put SM Naruto and Pain in a giant box with both their memories of each other's abilities wiped, absolutely no outside interference, and no pre-planning - Pain would win. I honestly don't see how, plot purposes aside, you can argue that to be different. Quote:
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